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Author
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Topic: Question
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted July 25, 2018 05:16 PM
I have had this happen several times. Maybe you have experienced it-maybe not, but I would like opinions of what is going on.
Scenario
Coyotes are in the area, approach to stand is good, and of course wind is in your favor. Sit down and start with a prey distress. It has always happened to me using rabbit. Anyhow, this plays for about 3-4 minutes and all of a sudden you can hear a group of coyotes howling back. Nothing associated with a threat bark or anything like that. Just a nice yip howl from a group of coyotes that sound like the kind of response you receive when you have howled or did a group howl of your own. Most generally, they are located 3/4 to a mile away. But they for sure can hear that rabbit.
What, in your opinion, is going on?
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted July 25, 2018 05:54 PM
Dunno but I have that happen all the time. Including many successful stands. I don't give it much thought anymore. Except, when I have a good approach towards the howlers. I usually don't but it's a high percentage play when I do.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 25, 2018 06:39 PM
I have had same thing happen often enough. I can't say it results in success but rather, like Dave said, it (unfortunately) does not add up to A+B=C. I have had them come in on a string shortly after a group howl that you have to assume was prompted by your distress sound. I have also had them not come in, or once in a while, if you handle it right, they will send in a volunteer to check it out. It's just hard to draw conclusions.
I had this group yip howl one morning, in a canyon surrounded by homes. Wasn't even light enough to shoot yet. I started with a low distress and they lit up within a minute, maybe 2? They were perhaps a half a mile away and interestingly enough, they came from the grounds of the senior rest home that was at the top of the canyon! This was a depredation assignment, by the way. What we expected was an approach from the Bonelli Nature Park that was down the canyon in the opposite direction, around the corner from an adjoining canyon. Not trying to confuse the issue here, but there they were up on the manicured grounds.
So, after sounding off, which was a little surprising all by itself, and coming from the urban direction was also surprising, a third surprise was the movement coming straight at us and unfortunately, I probably started the stand about ten minutes too early because it was very difficult picking them out of the clutter. I was lucky to get two of them before they disappeared and I couldn't tell you if it was downhill and into the Park or they retreated through the wrought iron fence surrounding the nursing home property and skedaddled across the street, which they do routinely. And, my guess is that there was 3 or 4 survivors?
Anyway, where was I? You can't make book on what will happen when they light up with a group yip howl no matter how stealthily is your approach. It's just something they do and it's exciting and gives you notice that something might happen. Unfortunately, sometimes, particularly when it occurs at night, it winds up queering the stand and all enticement fails. But, it's an interesting situation. Wish I could draw conclusions or anticipate or predict some response but I'm not there yet.
good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted July 25, 2018 08:48 PM
Happens a bunch. Some say you are busted and should come back another day...never really lived by that much. 3 strategeries for me on this...
1) Stay put and keep calling and try and get something to poke it head out. This is one time I will spend a lot of time on stand...if I really feel like working them some. Sometimes it's real fun and satisfying...mostly frustrating though.
2) Move closer.
3) Mark em best you can,back out, and come back a bit later..then get close to where you heard the group( or singles) Sometimes you end up right on top of em.
Honestly..if I have a lot of country to call I'll just move on. Not a lot of stand stamina nowdays.
Edit to say, don't really know why they do that...but it sure happens often.
Mark
[ July 25, 2018, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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Eddie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4324
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posted July 26, 2018 03:33 AM
Had it happen a couple times last year, I just thought I was in between two groups territory. I just gave it a little more time on stand and went to pup dist. quicker than other stands. Seems like one time they came in down wind, the other time had two come right up the draw like we planed it. Never gave it that much thought, but if you get to thinking on it, makes you wonder what's going on.
[ July 26, 2018, 03:42 AM: Message edited by: Eddie ]
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted July 26, 2018 04:37 AM
I think for the most part, my experiences in my AO, it's not anything more than coyotes taking note of a ruckus in the neighborhood and joining in. And it's actually quite often more than one group. Once the rabbit sets one batch off another batch responds and another batch. Sometimes in a really good area it's easy to imagine my rabbit sound setting off a chain reaction GYH reaching from Canada to Mexico.
No way of knowing. But for the most part, I don't really think anything is "going on". It's just coyotes being coyotes.
Well... Let me add "coyotes in my area being coyotes". I remember when this would come up once in awhile way back in the day and Rich Higgins was always surprised by my saying that coyotes howling in response to my rabbit distress was common as dirt. I talked to him about it a couple of times and apparently he had never seen it. I mean, he always said he had heard lots of howling in response to rabbit, but not the kind of GYH and non threat stuff I hear almost every morning I go calling. Just like Randy said, the response is exactly the same as what I'd expect to get from a locating howl.
During the early season, I fully expect to have this happen on almost every stand the first couple hours of the day. It's that common.
It doesn't seem to have any effect, positive or negative on the outcome of a stand. Have had plenty of coyotes come in from other directions. Have had plenty come from the direction of the howls and might have been one of the howlers. Have had plenty of blank stands.
My experience, there just isn't a correlation between these idle howlers and success. They are just background noise to me.
Howlers within about 500 yards, different story altogether. I expect to be killing one or two of those. They start that same GYH in response to my rabbit, from that close, I usually get some action out of them.
Which is why, if they are yowlering from further out and nobody shows, but I do have a good approach to go set up on them, it's a high percentage play. I mean, I know right where they are. So if the wind and terrain allow me to go after them without spending too much time on it, I do and it pays off more often than not. I'm not one to get too invested in getting any particular coyote though. I'm not inclined to do much walking to go after them. When I say good approach, I'm basically talking about going back to the truck and driving a little ways then walking only a couple hundred yards. That usually isn't really there for me. But, as mentioned a couple times already, when it is, it's a high percentage play.
I will also add, for clarity... This is early season I'm talking about. Late season, I get vocal response to rabbit pretty often too, but it's a different type of response and it spells MOVE ON, THIS STAND IS BLOWN.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted July 26, 2018 04:43 AM
I'm remembering talking to Scott H. about this too and he seemed as surprised as Higgins. In his usual inquisitive way, he asked me for a lot of detail to clarify, that yes, in essence, I routinely, very, very commonly, get the kind of vocal response he is often trying to get with locating methods, in response to rabbit distress.
Makes me think it must be a pretty area specific phenomena?
My first guess might be density of coyote. As I know most of what Scott hunts has a much lower density than what I hunt. But, Higgins probably has an even higher density than I do?
Who knows...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 26, 2018 05:17 AM
It's really apples and oranges when you are comparing notes with either Higgins or Huber. Higgins is calling in places he has visited , more than once, sometimes a lot more. Dave is probably more like me in that he makes no attempt to call the same place unless it's accidental. With Huber, I get the impression he never cold calls. With Dave and Leonard, it's all cold calling, so there you go.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Ariel Perez
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4678
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posted July 26, 2018 06:06 AM
Happens here in az from time to time. If they are far away I’ll leave the rabbit playing at a lower level to see if I can get a straggler to come in, if an approach is a available I’ll stop the stand short try to cut the distance as short as possible and start off with some pup distress or a fight sound, it usually works more times then not.
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AP
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted July 26, 2018 08:23 AM
Interesting..I guess I just dont give this scenerio a lot of thought nowdays, but it has been extremely common for me throughout the years? From CA to AZ to CO etc. I was a little suprised at what Dave said regarding Higgins and AZ?
Out of the things I listed, just staying put and continued calling is my main deal...mostly cause Im lazy. Sometimes continuing rabbit distress alone will work if you stick with it long enough, but mostly I feel like my success has come from combo calling..mixing it up with a couple small howls or going pup distress or full on ki-yi sounds...that gets em to at least poke their heads up. Sometimes Ill do a lot of other stuff like grey fox distress etc....just something different. Getting them mad or overly curious seems to do the trick. It's a great opportunity to use new sounds and observe reactions. When I had my half-assed "decoy" dogs, is when Id sit there the longest and play, if I could get em to show themselves, and they could see my dog, it was on.
Side note; I often think about getting another dog like that, but I am soft hearted and when they get killed or otherwise kick the bucket, I just hate it. I get to attached to animals.
I guess I feel like that kind of howling response to rabbit distress is somewhat normal for coyotes, for whatever reason...I have witnessed groups of coyotes (I remember this cause it was so awsome, from a great elevated position, a perfect spot that allowed me to do this in a specific area I like to call) roll into an area , yapping their heads off, spotting a rabbit/rabbits and organizing a roundup/slaughter, and those damn things were howling and yip yapping their asses off the whole time. Just looking at them, it wasnt about food, it was all about the chase..they acted like they were having the time of their lives. When it was all said and done, they left dead and injured cottontails laying in the dust and they moved on.
So to end my rambling, maybe they are like us...maybe they just love to hunt and get excited when they hear shit? Heck I dont know.
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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WhiteMtnCur
Knows what it's all about
Member # 5
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posted July 28, 2018 06:54 AM
A few years ago I was talking to an avid fall-winter fur caller and I told him I'd never used or even hunted over a FoxPro. He loaned me his insisting that I try it.
It was March as I was doing a lot of aerial Hunting. Before dawn one morning, I'd gotten some locates, put GPS pins on them with number of howlers, and at daybreak the plane landed by me, I uploaded the points to plane's GPS to give them a hunt route and I motored down the road to go call.
I hiked out a ways, set up, voice howled and then turned on a rabbit sound on this loaned FoxPro. Within a minute or two I had 2-3 coyotes group howling a ways out. I glassed. Nothing. My dogs only went to about half a mile and these coyotes were beyond that. So I radio the plane.
"Can you see my dogs on your screen?" (My dogs were wearing GPS collars)
"Yes."
"There's a couple coyotes another half mile north of them."
They buzz over and kill three. I watched and could see that all three were on a side hill and could have visually seen where I was.
Possibly they saw me walking in to the stand and that's why they howled but wouldn't come in?Possibly they saw the dogs and weren't the kind of coyotes to work the dogs? Possibly they didn't trust the noise I was making? Possibly they didn't trust the direction I was wanting them to come? Lot of possibilities for why they did what they did.
A few days later, similar scenario. Rabbit sound on this FoxPro, group of coyotes howling a long way out. No one will come in. Less than ideal terrain to stalk closer. On this day I had the pair of dogs with me that will go to howls. So they're heading out to the coyotes. I'm watching the dogs on the GPS screen: lots of milling around, but each time the dogs come my way, they stop short and go back. Suggesting to me the coyotes do not want to come towards me/the rabbit sounds. So I radio the plane.
"Can you see my dogs on your screen?"
"Yes."
"Go to them, they're on a group."
They buzz over. Best part- they said when they got there and killed the first two, the second two coyotes brushed up and they lost them. The dogs pressured those two and got them ferreted out and the plane got both. That behavior is most commonly associated with older coyotes, the ones that have been around the block, and maybe were howling at me while I was calling because they knew not to trust the sound/direction/etc.
For about two weeks while I played with that FoxPro, the jackrabbit and cottontail distress sounds on it outproduced sirens and howls as locator sounds for both aerial and terrestrial hunting.
It made me think back to the PosseCountry days with the long discussions about whether or not coyotes can discern the differences between high and low quality recordings, electronic broadcasts entirely, and the differences between hand calls/diaphragm calls/voice sounds and how coyotes respond to them.
For my diurnal hunting, which is all spring/summer work, coyotes doing the group yip howl is a welcome response. I have very high success rates killing multiple coyotes by advancing or circling on them (I also have two dogs that will go to howls, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here).
Group howling responses are so high percentage for me, that eliciting that vocalization is about as good as it gets for me/my coyotes/conditions, because in most terrain, it means I'm soon to have a couple coyotes in front of me for the dogs to work and/or me to shoot.
As my hunting of coyotes has progressed to far more hunting focused and much less calling based, I voice howl and voice distress more than any other sound. It's probably also why I locate and spend so much time hunting/stalking before I set up and make noise (volume is also a factor here). But the result is simply a lot more dead spring/summer coyotes in high mountain country where calling is generally considered an inferior tool to get the job done.
So group yip howling; For me and my coyotes, I can hardly ask for better. It's the coyotes that decide to be tight lipped that are tough sumbitches to get killed with a gun. I'll take talkers any day.
[ July 28, 2018, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: WhiteMtnCur ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 28, 2018 02:43 PM
Glad you have the success, Trevor. I have to say, sometimes howling in response to my calling is a boner killer. Many times, I just have to pack it in. Absolute silence seems to work for me, if I have the time? However, I can make three successful stands down the road, rather than waiting an hour for a volunteer to show up.
Can you be clear what you mean by voice howl and voice distress? Huber does the voice howl a lot. It's not something I do, usually. Also, when you say that you have't used a Foxpro, do you mean that you don't use electronics, at all? No Wildlife Technologies?
Good hunting. El Bee
PS you've come a long ways, Grasshopper!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
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posted July 28, 2018 03:39 PM
Yeah, sounds like the life!
Mark
[ July 28, 2018, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted July 28, 2018 05:02 PM
Here in the NE, I get vocal response to distress often, and very often after dark.
I've reckoned that, if they were 'close', it was the 'local pack' letting another (potential) coyote know that they're on enemy turf. Meaning, the group howling response was giving an intruder fair warning of who they're gonna be dealing with, shortly. And, a vocal response also allows a 'known' coyote to respond back, in turn, to ID itself to its pack. Could be waaay off, but that's what I've deduced...
So, when I hear a vocal response to distress, I WAIT. And, WAIT. AND....WAIT. I've got a semi-captive audience, so the next move is, what sound to use to "seal the deal".
And when I use the next sound, it is played, sparingly. And then, I WAIT some more...
Lots of times, it'll take one of these dang coyotes 30-60 minutes to show. But, I ant got nothing better to do, so I'll stay on stand long enough to either freeze, or the batteries die, LOL. But, I've seen too many times where I got up too soon, and fukkin blown a stand because of it.
Tracks in the snow are a sure fire way to know when that happens.
Great topic!
[ July 28, 2018, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 28, 2018 05:44 PM
I can’t argue with these replies above. What I can throw out there is from the standpoint of contests. I cut my teeth coyote hunting while contest hunting. Whatever you do it must produce.
I guess, if the weather is snotty, nothing’s moving I suppose a hunter can afford to wait them out. Yes, when I don’t know what else to do, waiting on stand for an hour is just as good as breaking it off and moving on.
But, at some point, it’s the percentages that force you to do something that puts a coyote in the bed of the truck. That’s what I learned. It’s results dictate what I do in the same situation next time and the time after that.
If they ain’t moving, and you invest an hour every time they give you a vocal response, at the end of the day, and deducting the prime stands, boy, that adds u to a bunch of fat zeros.
I know it’s easy to say, move in on them. Just sometimes this is not a practical solution. There are places that you can do this and places that I would not try it. Some of you guys live out on “the lone prairie” and I can tell you that there are considerations that make it impractical if not plain stupid. Tell me, if you have wetbacks in the vicinity, are you going to walk away from your rig with and let a desperate illegal take over. You say it’s not likely, and I’d agree most places....but not all places. If you don’t like my example, pick one that would make you think about it. I’m just saying, every time a pack lights up, you can’t bail out and walk them up. If you can, great. I’m a hell of a lot more inclined to do it with a cat, by the way, even if their vocals aren’t the exact reason. I guess I mean, lack of vocalization, don’t I?
Whatever you do do, you will learn what produces and since I believe it’s actually a numbers game, that’s what counts. It’s how I learned. Anybody can return to checkin with nothing. I hate to get skunked, personally.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
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posted July 28, 2018 09:55 PM
I'm a bit wishy washy and sort of contradicted myself a bit...but sometimes I'm in the mood to play and will stay on em if I know they are there in that situation,.enjoying the challenge, which I do find myself doing more of these days, but always fighting the urge to move.
Been out doing some calling pretty regular this summer..its brutal out there! I think we've had like 20 straight days of over 100 degrees? This drought sucks too, but as of right now coyotes seem to be everywhere. Getting
Ready for archery season as well.
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted July 29, 2018 04:41 AM
Good conversation. Can't remember the last time I had one on the internet as interesting.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
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posted July 29, 2018 06:33 AM
Second that !
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 29, 2018 10:55 AM
I agree with DAA as to the rate of response may be directly correlated to densities. If groups are on top of one another, the GYH response may be a way of warning off anyone who might be crowding the neighbors. Which then makes me wonder, in the event that coyotes approach, are they the same ones that sounded off (the neighbors, per se) or are they the local landowner sneaking in to size up the situation.
This happens to me occasionally and I always focus the bulk of my attention to downwind and just wait. The GYH seems to me to signal their commitment and I don't know that any further noise from me is a good thing, as opposed to giving them a specific spot to focus on from a distance where I might not see them (but they might see me).
We had an instance last season, near the end, where Kevin and I sat down on opposite sides of a driveway with a pasture/rock quarry behind me and a deep creek and timber behind him. I opened with a brief 2-3 lone howls and immediately, a pack of coyotes lit up less than 100 yards from us upwind. It was deafening, they were so close. I could see movement through the trees at my 11 o-clock but we were in and amongst calving cows and I just couldn't tell if I was seeing coyotes moving in response to the calling, or were they calves scattered by the same.
While the pack was GYHing at me, I discerned a single coyote challenge barking me from the trees behind Kevin and indicated to him to be watching his six.
The cacophony died out and about three minutes later, a single large male came creeping out low and slow just like a stalking bobcat about ten yards from Kevin, looking all around for what he thought was another coyote. Kevin dumped him.
Next morning, Kevin picks me up and asks me where we're going. I told him back to the rock quarry, knowing there were still a bunch there. He told me that he'd heard on the internet that you shouldn't ever call a spot the next day where you made a kill, and I told him I didn't much believe in the internet. LOL
We sat down just like the day before. Opened with a different howl on the e-caller. Within seconds, a coyote rounds the bend in the trees about sixty yards in front of Kevin hugging the edge, and a second one appears right behind him. As the coyote closes on where Kevin's sitting, he doesn't move. His rifle is halfway raised and I'm thinking how cool this is gonna be to see how close it gets to him. I have to give K big props for his poise. He just sat there and that coyote was maybe ten feet from him when I woofed it to a stop. Kevin just missed getting splattered from the blood when I punched that coyote. LOL The second one turned to skidaddle and we double tapped it. We really need to start filming this shit for when we're old(er).
Again, I think the response is a territorial thing and thus, density dependent. If they answer me back, I know for a fact that they're around. If they don't, 50:50 chance that they are or aren't. If they reply, watch the downwind side for a slow, sneaky response usually preceded by a serious recon. I've stopped considering this scenario to be an indication of being busted. If they saw me come in, they usually just quietly leave. If they answer, it's because they think I'm another coyote.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted July 29, 2018 12:01 PM
My experience from mid morning to mid afternoon
If I start a stand with a howl and get a group howl 1/2 to 3/4 miles away....my confidence is extremely high.
If I start a stand with rabbit and get a group howl 1/2 to 3/4 miles away....my confidence is extremely low.
If only I had a plane to vector to the location or a couple dogs I could sic in that general direction. LOL
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted July 29, 2018 02:34 PM
Hey Leonard how you been?
For me Iv'e never had a hard charger come from the direction of the group. Just sneakers and not very often. if they sound off I just keep calling and sometimes one will come from that direction or some other lucky contestant will show up. I have always figured when they sound off like that they were educated. 10- 20 minutes (depending on country and volume) and head down the road
That's winter fur calling. In the spring/summer working for pay I tend to work a little harder. Often setting up with the electronic well away and below me. Like 100 yards. If you get one to come in from the group they make a big cautious circle and if things go your way you can pick one off. But that's only one of them and doesn't get the job done. So next time to the area just vocalizations. Hopefully you can snipe another one from a high spot once they sound off. seems like you only get a couple chances because they move around a lot that time of year once off the den.
ML
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted July 30, 2018 07:39 AM
Reading Lance's part where the big coyote come sneaking in like a cat reminded me of a stand with my cousin.
He was down in a canyon playing the Fox pro and he is known for long stands, long enough that I've gone to sleep on one or two, and this one is no different but it was his turn to call. Anyway he wakes me up by playing a GYH to end his stand. I wanted to kill him but I just sat there on top of the canyon edge looking in front of me when a big male coyote came sneaking up right behind me and walked within 10' of me. I couldn't move and as it turned out he had to cross in front of me to peak down into the canyon. I shot him by point shooting at 10-15'.
It made me think a whole lot on the why's until I figured out I wasn't smart enough to figure it out and just learned to expect anything and take it as it comes.
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
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posted July 30, 2018 11:54 PM
this is why I love this site !
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 31, 2018 05:16 AM
Paul, we value these conversations but think how much more interesting if some people, (I'm looking at you, Vic) would contribute the wealth of information they have? It would cost them nothing and enrich the experience. Instead, we have quite a number of readers with nothing to say. It would help if they stuck their nose in here with a nugget, now and then.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted July 31, 2018 08:52 AM
I don’t use prey distress much anymore. Mostly Coyote Vocals and I’m not talking Electronics either. Noticed lately Electronics can be a negative more often than not, especially in areas that get hit pretty hard.Seems that the last few years the Coyotes have been very responsive both vocally and in coming into the sounds. At least that’s what I’ve found.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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