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Author
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Topic: Can we talk facemasks?...
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted November 24, 2017 04:58 PM
The value of any face camo should depend on two things. If you are hunting in heavier cover and your contact is close, then it is probably advantageous to use face camo. In that situation, you should be carrying a shotgun. In open country, when carrying a shotgun and you want close contact, again, face camo would be advantageous.
In open country when only carrying a rifle and not on snow cover, I don't want anything on my face because that is the part the coyote sees first and will USUALLY get them to stop at the correct distance. This goes hand in hand with no more calling than necessary.
The opposite situation is continual calling and full camo and missed shots on running coyotes that don't stop because they don't see anything to make them stop.
Camo has value when contact is close while using a shotgun. Camo is highly over rated with a rifle in open country.
The worst thing to wear is a coyote fur hat on your head when you are howling. That should be self-explanatory.
~SH~
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Leonard
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posted November 25, 2017 10:46 AM
All good points, Scott.
I agree, the facemark has limited value. I might go all morning and not pull my bandana up over my nose, but then again, it's there if I think it would benefit.
But, in the first place, it's a bad deal if the coyote is focused on you and not the source of the sound, which in my case is a Foxpro around 50 feet from me. Unless movement gives me away, there is really no reason for a coyote to notice me. Therefore the facemask has limited usefulness when I am trying to blend in in front of a bush. But, if you confidence improves by using the facemask, by all means, make use of it.
On the other hand, I have had it get in the way when mounting a scoped rifle. Not my bandana, but using a manufactured facemask, they can slip, usually upwards and now you need to use a hand to get it the hell out of the way. Yeah, I'm no big fan, I see very limited usefulness.
But in reference to your last comment, and why in hell would somebody be wearing a fur cap; but they do and Darwin scores again. I'm also thinking of that asshole that killed a woman walking her dog with a handgun. You think hunting accidents are a remote possibility, the way we hunt and at our level of competence.
We started talking about genealogy last night, as my son in law has an extensive site with relatives on both sides going back to Scandinavia and eastern Europe. Anyway, Corey's mother had both grandfathers die in hunting accidents. I said, what are the odds of that and he said that she just kind of shrugged and thought it was rather common.
I had never heard of the term, "Sound Shots" until one year we were hunting mule deer in Colorado and we ran into a hunter and we mentioned hearing gunfire from the direction he was coming from. "oh, that was me, a couple 'sound' shots"! Well, we didn't ask him but did inquire as to what the hell is meant by SOUND SHOTS. This is when you hear something or just want to shoot into some heavy cover in hopes of flushing a deer out of there. Apparently, there are (so called) hunters that actually do this. Believe it or not.
No wonder there are a few fatalities every deer season. I do know one predator hunter that shot himself in the foot. Several things wrong, chambered, safety off, slipped or tripped and finger on the damned trigger!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted November 25, 2017 07:52 PM
Something in your post, made me wonder, doesn't everyone, after getting settled, chamber a round, and leave the safety "off"?
I thought the safety on thing, then flicking it off right before the shot, was reserved only for the TV hunting shows for anticipatory visual effect?
My routine is always the same, empty chamber when exiting the truck, get call set up, settle my ass on my stool, chamber a round, with safety off, start call then expect a coyote. When stand is finished, drop magazine, extract cartridge, close bolt, feed cartridge back in magazine and reseat magazine, then head to truck to do it all over again.
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Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
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posted November 25, 2017 08:24 PM
I started wearing a pullover facemask when I started hunting eastern Oregon daytime. I had the Foxpro out about 30 yards from me and a coyote came in. He stopped short of the caller then turned and looked straight at me. I got him before he could pour it on.
Other than losing them all of the time I find a facemask to be no burden what so ever. Oh, and when calling I don't always wear camo or a facemask but the leafy camo and facemask has allowed coyotes to come in so close I can blow them away with the shotgun. A few years back I killed a coyote that almost ran me over. I shot him with my 22-250 at about 10 ft.
I originally bought the leafy camo and facemask for hunting ducks in partially flooded fields. that are surrounded by blackberry brush. It was just to hard and painful to squat in the blackberries so when I got the camo I could sit in the open close to my decoys. Ducks would land not 15 ft from me.
We all do things a bit different from one another, that's for sure. I've been very successful doing things that I've learned first hand over the years. If we sat down and talked we'd find a lot to agree on and some things to disagree on.
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I snatch kisses. And vice versa.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 25, 2017 09:36 PM
Vic, if that's directed at me, the event wasn't like that at all. The man was walking along a side slope and tripped on a root, and shot himself in the foot and was helicoptered to Blythe for treatment. Had nothing to do with his behavior on a stand. In fact, I never hunted with him so I wouldn't know what he does, but maybe I don't want to know?
Moe, really, I don't mean to disparage the use of a facemask they just aren't for me. I don't care for leafy camo either. Or a ghilli suit. I would worry about all those strings and ropes getting snagged in my bolt. Even a piece of fabric can really jamb up a bolt action.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS, I don't normally unchamber a round as I break off a stand. It's good the way it is, (locked) until I get back to the vehicle. When I get there, I open the bolt and pull it back. I've had people hunt with me that just lay an AR down facing front with the safely on. I'm not at all comfortable with this.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted November 25, 2017 09:47 PM
No, not directed at you at all Leonard, just got me to thinking about the safety on/off method, and if I was the fucked up one in some guys eyes for not having safety on until ready to shoot?
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted November 26, 2017 06:47 AM
quote:
.... thinking about the safety on/off method, and if I was the fucked up one in some guys eyes for not having safety on until ready to shoot?
No, but your video star career is toast now.
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted November 26, 2017 09:09 AM
I chamber a round before I leave truck. I leave safety on untill ready to shoot. Safety back on after the shot(s). Unload rifle/shotgun when back at truck.
I distrust everyone around me in the "safety on/off" department. Im always eyeballing everyone on stand, I see to many guys leaving safety off all the time, laying rifle down, or propping it up against a tree/bush etc in their excitement. I always get vocal about it, and maybe thats why I dont have calling partners? Guess Im an ass. Engaging the safety is no guarantee of course, but I want it engaged when appropriate..., period.
Mark
edit for spellin
[ November 27, 2017, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 26, 2017 09:12 AM
What, like: FRIED CHICKEN!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted November 26, 2017 09:18 AM
Yes,,,silly shit like that.
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 26, 2017 09:31 AM
Okay, Vic. I reread everything. I'm just about the same way. When I get settled, on stand, I almost always take the safety OFF. I'm NOT the type to flip it off a millisecond before pulling the trigger. My trigger is operative the entire time that I'm on stand.
I depend on a safety; weakly. There is no substitute for keeping your finger off the trigger and never pointing the gun at anybody, empty or not.
It's always good to be a creature of habit. Discipline. However you go about it, do it the same all the time. Like I said before; I personally like to open the bolt when storing the rifle inside, between stands. I suppose that's not as 100% foolproof as actually unloading a rifle but I'm pretty confident doing it that way.
I think rimfires are a little more tricky than centerfires, when it comes to rendering them "safe".
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted November 26, 2017 09:42 AM
My MO, chamber a round when I take rifle out of truck. Safety on. Safety stays on until I have a coyote in the scope. Stand over, empty the chamber, pick a target and dry fire. Walk back with empty chamber. Back at truck, point muzzle up and pull trigger before putting rifle in truck.
I don't like detachable magazines for the above. Biggest reason I got rid of my 788. Just bothered by the fact I had to remove the magazine and deal with it to empty the chamber and dry fire. Especially in the cold and especially with gloves on and especially in the snow. Dropped that gawd damn detachable mag in the snow only a couple times, but what a PITA looking for the hole in the snow and then digging for it. Not a huge deal, really, but dealing with it just irritated me over and over and over again at the end of every stand.
With a box magazine, I pull the bolt back, push that round back into the box mag, close the bolt on an empty chamber without even looking, even with gloves on. Much better.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 26, 2017 12:12 PM
Yes, negative attitude about detachable magazines....on a hunting rifle.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted November 26, 2017 01:14 PM
Same here, ran a couple for a few years..cant stand it.
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted November 27, 2017 09:03 AM
My safety routine is this with no exceptions. When I pull the rifle out of the pickup, I automatically check to make sure there is no round in the chamber. I walk to the stand with an empty chamber. When on the stand, I chamber a round. Safety is "ON" until I am ready to shoot then I flip it "OFF". If I see a coyote while walking to the stand, it doesn't take me long to chamber a round.
When I am carrying my Benelli automatic shotgun, I have a shell sticking out of the side of the chamber so everyone, including myself, can see that the gun is unloaded. Then when I am on stand, I slip that shell into the chamber and close it. Shotgun safety stays "ON" until I am ready to shoot.
This is the same way shotguns are handled during aerial operations. Want to end a career as a gunner, just start pulling that shotgun back into the plane with a live round in the chamber. No pilot I know will tolerate it nor should they.
When I am pheasant hunting and traveling in a vehicle with other hunters and our shotguns, I have the shell sticking out of the chamber until I am ready to start walking/hunting. Then I chamber that round and leave safety "ON" until I am ready to fire.
I understand why some guys do not like to hunt with their safeties on because they fumble with the safety when a pheasant gets up. I'm sorry, but I won't hunt with anyone who cannot learn to operate their safety at the right time. Sitting on a calling stand is a bit more safe than walking with the safety "OFF" but safety "OFF" on the stand still scares the hell out of me. Things happen unexpectedly. With that said, I do understand why some like to leave safety "OFF" on a stand but I can't be around it.
I am fortunate that I started shooting with a Crossman 760 BB and pellet gun as a child and finding the safety is automatic for me. When a bird gets up, I automatically hit the safety. If it's a hen, I automatically put it back on. Just the way I learned. Flipping the safety on and off is as much a reflex for me as raising the gun to shoot.
I had an uncle that was religious about hunting safety and he would chew anyone's ass in front of the entire group for any unsafe action. Some got real butt hurt over it. I am very thankful that I had an uncle like that because I never forgot my ass chewing for shooting towards the cappers on a low bird once. Our pheasant hunting group hunted every year with a perfect track record for safety. We always had highly organized and successful hunts because of my uncle.
Everyone that hunts pheasants with me now with an automatic shotgun has a round sticking out the side when they are in the truck so everyone can see that everyone with an auto is safe. Pump shotguns have their actions open. No exceptions and no regards for hurting someone's feelings over safety concerns.
In a perfect world, everyone would identify their targets but you can see many coyotes shot on the top of hills on you tube videos to know how far safety goes with a lot of guys. Not saying I haven't shot a coyote either on top of a hill because I have but it's never a safe thing to do.
The fact that another hunter should have clearly identified their target before pulling the trigger is no consolation to the man with a fur hat with a bullet hole through it.
Why invite trouble? That's like using an antelope or elk decoy during rifle season.
A friend of mine lost their hunting partner who was shot while hiding in an oversized goose decoy. He was shot in the head with a rifle and died. Local was trying to scare the geese off his fields from a considerable distance away. Terrible tragedy.
He could just as easily have been shooting at a coyote fur cap when only the fur cap was visible. Just not a good idea.
~SH~
[ November 27, 2017, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 27, 2017 09:31 AM
I'm not really considering pheasant hunting, but you have a point well taken.On the other hand, I'm also safe enough that I might resent some person telling me what is the proper procedure since he is apparently, in charge? I might tell him, ok, you guys go ahead and hunt that side of the road, I'll meet you back at the truck. I never heard of shotgun shells sticking out of the action? It might be the safest thing since sliced bread but it will be awkward to some other people.
I can't and won't fault people that click off the safety at the last moment before the shot. For me, (and I'm only talking about a coyote stand with one other person, that you can see and know where he is) anyway, for me, I don't have a problem sitting there with the safety off and I feel the same way, Scott. If you don't like it, go do something else with someone else. Not saying this is you but....I hate control freaks! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted November 27, 2017 11:26 AM
I was speaking in particular to coyote hunting, which I usually do solo 90% of the time. Those times I have a hunting partner, I "know" that person, and thoroughly trust their rifle handling skills and safety. We both know where we are going to sit, and verify as we sit our ass down. Anyone who has hunted with me knows, I always sit to their right, I'm left handed, and always have my rifle held across my legs, muzzle pointing to front right, therefore I know, they are sitting with their rifle across their legs, facing front left, or on sticks. I never use sticks, so I know where my rifle is pointed.
Those who deploy a safety at all times, is fine by me, how could anyone intelligently fault that habit, good on them if that is how they roll.
I have flicked a safety on and off literally a million times on a 1911, shotgun and rifle during my 35 years of firearms competitions, I know where they are and which way they operate by memory, could do it my sleep.
I just don't leave the safety on, when on a coyote stand, no need, I know where my trigger finger is, always alongside the stock, just above the trigger. When the stand is finished, as I mentioned before, I drop magazine, extract cartridge, hold trigger as I close bolt, then stuff the magazine back in my rifle, that's my habit.
When shotgun hunting, I use an O/U, so action is always open when walking to hunt, I always get on right side of hunting partner, safety is always on till incoming bird, then off at the shot, reload and safety on.
If hunting with someone I'm not to familiar with, I'm less concerned with condition of their mechanical safety, but I watch their overall rifle/shotgun or handgun handling skills and manners. Trust me, Ive been around enough shooters, that in about 2 minutes, I can assess my desire or lack of it, to be around them.
It's painfully obvious when observing an individual, who you immediately know lacks gun handling skills, and I will right away make mention of it. I will not berate nor sound trite, they just don't know any better, so I make it appear as a "tip".
I suppose that's why I usually hunt alone, I trust "me", and maybe three or four other guys I occasionally hunt with.
Ive witness three injuries with firearms, not a single one had anything to do with a mechanical safety, it had to do with where the stupid mother fuckers trigger finger was at the time of discharge.
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted November 27, 2017 05:10 PM
I know a few guys that simply do not trust a safety. They feel it becomes a false sense of security when relied upon solely as the only means of assurance of a safe weapon. There's some merit to that when custom rifles fire prematurely because the stock did not allow enough room for the trigger during installation or with safeties that are wore out.
Those particular guys put more emphasis on whether or not there is a shell in the magazine than whether or not the safety is "ON".
I hear you Vic on guys who unsafely handle firearms. A safety "ON" means nothing in the presence of someone who is not always conscious of where the firearm is pointing. I also like your idea of covering the trigger guard.
This is probably one of those things that goes to differences in habitat. In this open country, we usually have time to get ready. In heavy brush, where every second counts, the time it takes to fumble with a safety, especially with gloves on, might be the difference between a kill and not.
~SH~
[ November 27, 2017, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted November 27, 2017 05:25 PM
Leonard,
I am sure I dislike unsafe hunters more than you dislike control freaks. I won't hesitate to say something including when to let low birds go because we are getting too close to the cappers. Seen too many cappers get riddled with pellets not to say something. I'd rather offend someone than take someone to the hospital.
Oh yeh, and for the guys that shoot 6 shot at pheasants and powder them at close range, I always keep track of those birds and make sure the ones who blew them up get to clean and eat those particular birds. I figure a few chipped teeth from 6 shot or a microwave oven that lights up will remind them why it's best to let them get out a ways.
I have even watched idiots shoot at falling birds that were already dead. Too many good hunters out there to waste time hunting with idiots.
~SH~
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 27, 2017 06:34 PM
I'll tell you one pet peeve. I have hunted with a guy that never lets me know where he is, and it annoys the hell out of me! Once again, I am talking specifically on a coyote stand, not bird hunting. One time I lost track of him as usual, but this spot was a little dicy so I got up and walked towards the last place I saw him, and he had climbed a friggin' tree, and possibly a 100 yards from where I had left my stool. I started thinking it was intentional, he didn't want me to know where he was and I don't appreciate that attitude, nor do I understand it? I think that's basic, when you have a man in sight and maybe along side.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
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posted November 27, 2017 07:54 PM
Since others have brought it up when I'm in California hunting I empty the rifle before it touches the vehicle. When I head out to make a stand I get away from the truck and load the shells into the magazine but leave the action open until I sit down to call. I reverse the process when I'm leaving. In Oregon I can leave the shells in the rifle between stands but I leave the action full open.
I shoot a semi auto shotgun and the gun is never loaded before sitting down to call. I hunt birds with an O/U 20 gauge and the safety is easily pushed forward with the thumb.
Since the great majority of my calling is done alone I don't engage the safety on a coyote stand but, again, I don't close the action until I'm set.
Years ago when I lived in Barstow I invited a neighbor to go quail hunting with me. We hunted a rown of tall brush that the quail were hiding in. I asked the guy to call out so we walked the brush evenly. Just a little whistle or even a grunt would've been nice. The SOB wouldn't make a sound. I wound up letting a lot of shts go because I didn't know where he was. He never fired a shot. Then when we got back near the truck I unloaded on him. He capped off the day by killing a Golden Eagle. I turned him in tot he game warden but the game warden said he would have had to witnessed it.
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I snatch kisses. And vice versa.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 28, 2017 08:55 AM
I don't know, Moe? But seems to me the main problem you had was walking opposite sides of the brush and out of sight and sound? I don't know how you would solve that predicament?
Of course, personally, I have lost the ability to whistle since I had some dental work done, and my grunting ability is reserved for the bedroom.
Oh yeah, I should mention that I missed the opportunity to join the Black Mile High Club, yesterday, so that would probably involve a little grunting, as well. Besides, she ate a whole bag of Fritos on that one hour flight, never offered the bag in my direction and requested TWO bags of peanuts! Not the snack size; a regular bag of Fritos. So, it was the Frito breath that turned me off. Not particularly fond of "Exotics", but there's always a first time.
Where was I?
Oh yeah, Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted November 28, 2017 12:37 PM
Yeh I hear you guys about the frustration of not knowing where your partner is. We hunt cover between us all the time and at least wear blaze orange caps as well as making noise so we know where the other guy/guys/gals are.
I remember you and I (Leonard) getting in a situation where you were in front of me and a coyote came in from in front of you so it was in line with both of us. I remember you didn't know if you should shoot it or not. I can't remember if we had my dogs there or not. You finally shot and killed the coyote and I was glad you did.
I think we ended up in that situation because I was trying to cover a different area and I didn't want to get blind sided by any coyotes approaching from that area. I would have needed adequate visibility to cover that area and that's why I ended up there. Anyway, I just remember it was not a comfortable situation for either of us. I am sure you were worried whether or not I would have a dumb shit attack and shoot past you, which I would never do. A person in your situation would still have to worry about it.
Whenever I am uncomfortable with a shooting situation like that, I can't concentrate on the shot anyway.
As an example, if I have a coyote cross the road in front of me from right to left and it is legal to shoot from the roadway (not during a big game season), with minimal traffic, I will always pull my vehicle off to the left shoulder facing oncoming traffic so I do not have to shoot across the highway. Doesn't matter if I looked both ways or not, worrying about traffic breaks my concentration enough that I cannot shoot well if I have to think about it.
~SH~
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Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
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posted November 28, 2017 06:27 PM
The guy was perfectly capable of whistling and the brush was thin enough to hear through. I couldn't see him, tho.
I left out the fact that a year later I got permission to hunt a piece of private property for doves. I had a couple of friends with me. Up drives this asswipe and he has a buddy with him. They saw us out in the field and decided to trespass. They sat in a ditch to my left. I shot a dove that was flopping around so I got up and went out to pick it up. That jerk waited until I was bending over to pick up the bird then he fired his shotgun at the bird. Trouble was he shot my left foot. No lead penetrated my boots but the impact of the shot made my foot swell so much that the boot needed to be cut off. When he saw what he did he and his buddy ran to their truck to get away. No problem. I knew where he lived and I'll just say he paid for what he did.
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I snatch kisses. And vice versa.
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