|
Author
|
Topic: Decoy dogs and their misuse
|
3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
|
posted April 16, 2017 03:40 PM
quote:
Show me a man that takes a lot of coyote dens and I will show you a man that couldn't or didn't kill enough bred females before they denned.
Do tell...
Or could be, show me a man that doesn't take many dens and I will show you a man that couldn't or isn't capable of finding one.
I'll have to tell some of the big time dennners like Robbie Campbell, Rock Buckingham, Tim Fish, or Cenney Burnell that they are or were doing it all wrong.
[ April 16, 2017, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
--------------------
Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 16, 2017 06:21 PM
Yeh, do tell Cal!
Those mystery dens that are not being found by myself, the landowners, or the pilots and they are supposedly camped close to the sheep and not killing. Humm, must be silent ones on a vegetarian diet huh? Great view from no sheep easy street huh?
As I said, coyotes killed per hour by the airplane and lambs weaned tells the population story. Believe what you want, could care less.
You took 75% of your coyotes on the ground, so did I.
~SH~
[ April 16, 2017, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 16, 2017 07:03 PM
Cal,
Knowing you as I do, allow me to clarify one word for you before you invariably take it out of context.
The word "couldn't", within the context of my quote doesn't mean "does not have the ability to", the word "couldn't" means that the workload, hours available, aerial hours available, coyote population, terrain, dispersion from surrounding areas, etc. etc. does not allow for the removal of more coyotes prior to denning. Otherwise, why would anyone wait when those coyotes can be killing plenty of range born lambs before docking??
While you are spinning this to those mentioned, might ask them whether they shoot more coyotes from the plane in Natrona County or Southern Campbell County and whether or not there is a constant influx of coyotes moving off the Bighorns that might contribute to a higher number of dens than one would like if given the option to remove them earlier?
Differences in population might also be the reason trappers in Converse County don't take more dens than they do. Once again, number of dens taken goes hand in hand with differences in coyote populations as proven by aerial hunts.
Maybe, just maybe these variables are a contributing factor far more than "WHAT SOMEONE WANTS TO BELIEVE".
While we are discussing this, allow me to quote another WY county trapper who, at a ADMB board, made a statement that would qualify as one of the most ignorant statements ever made about coyotes when considering differences in populations from area to area (paraphrasing) "those counties with trappers that are only taking 50 coyotes a year should be getting rid of those guys and hiring trappers that can kill more coyotes". LOL! As if they have never been anywhere that 4 - 6 coyotes is considered an excellent day with the plane.
Would you think it would be fair for someone to say, "those counties with trappers taking 500 - 600 coyotes, they should get rid of those guys because those guys obviously can't keep their coyote populations under control".
That would be just as arrogant and just as ignorant without considering all the variables wouldn't it??? Funny how those two human characteristics seem to go hand in hand.
~SH~
[ April 16, 2017, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted April 17, 2017 06:10 AM
Do I detect a slight quarrel between friends? I would hope not!
One thing about folks that have something on the ball; they have opinions. Does that mean Friend A is right and Friend B is therefore, full of shit? The answer to that is above my pay grade.
Interesting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted April 17, 2017 07:16 AM
I think that the above posts validate my comments about nuggets of advice being given verrrry carefully. Both of those guys are on a coyote level way beyond most casual caller's comprehension and I'm guessing that both are right in their own time & place.
Much to be learned from either one of them.
Likewise, even a first year caller might stumble onto something useful that I can use.
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
|
posted April 18, 2017 05:18 AM
No quarrel LB, I just call bullshit when I see bullshit. Been a downfall of mine my whole life.
--------------------
Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted April 18, 2017 07:09 AM
Boy, Howdy! That's a good one!
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 19, 2017 02:29 AM
1. More coyotes within 4 miles of sheep = more dens available to take within 4 miles of sheep
2. Less coyotes within 4 miles of sheep = less dens available to take within 4 miles of sheep
3. Every bred female coyote, particularly those beyond mid gestation, removed within 4 miles of sheep = one less den to take within that same area.
4. Coyote population in a given area at a given time validated by coyotes killed per hour with the airplane or helicopter
5. Coyote population in a given area at a given time measured by what landowners see and hear.
6. ADC Trapper performance measured by air to ground take ratio
7. ADC Trapper Performance measured by livestock losses
8. ADC Trapper performance measured by customer satisfaction
9. ADC Trapper performance measured by predator board satisfaction
10. Dens that are "allegedly" missed or not found within 4 miles of sheep would be seen and heard and they would more than likely be killing lambs.
No bullshit - straight hard facts
Variables to consider in the equation:
a) Size district
b) aerial hunting hours available
c) total hours worked
d) access to land
e) yearly and seasonal changes in coyote population dynamics (mange, dispersion, etc)
f) number of landowners covered
What someone wants to call bullshit will never trump the facts.
There is a lot of road between calling bullshit and proving bullshit. Talk is cheap!
Any challenges to the above information are more than welcome Cal!
What proves the difference between whether dens are available to be taken and simply being missed by a "sub par performance trapper" or whether the dens are not even there? Enquiring minds want to know.
Very simple question.
~SH~
[ April 19, 2017, 04:16 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 19, 2017 05:32 AM
Oh, and almost forgot
11) Show me an increase in fox numbers (absent mange and other disease issues) and I will show you a decrease in coyote numbers.
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted April 19, 2017 01:53 PM
I think any dummy can agree with #11. I agree with #11.
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
|
posted April 21, 2017 05:00 AM
Sorry Leonard, but along with the rest number 11 is wrong too.
Absent mange and disease (as stated),
fox populations are controlled by rodent populations, not coyotes. In times of extreme high rodent and rabbit populations you will see an increase in all predators, even fox.
Extreme high rodent populations also keep coyote predation on other species and farm animals down, regardless of massive population increases.
--------------------
Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted April 21, 2017 05:54 AM
Well, yes. I was thinking of the decline, all things being equal, but you do have a point!
These things don't have a simple explanation, but if there are lots of red fox and lots of lesser critters and if coyotes move in, they will thin out the fox, any chance they get. But, I can see that that is only one aspect, it's all (basically) dependent on rodent and rabbit populations, or there wouldn't be anything to talk about.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 21, 2017 10:55 AM
Doesn't matter how much rodent populations affect reproduction in fox and coyote populations, very few denning coyotes will tolerate fox in their denning area which is precisely why the fox in areas of heavy coyote concentration are pushed next to the towns and Interstate highway systems.
Want me to start presenting peer reviewed studies? Steve Allen showed this in a radio telemetry study of fox and coyote inter-relations in ND. GPS tracking systems showed very little overlap in territories.
I can't believe anyone familiar with coyotes would even try to argue red fox displacement by coyotes.
Along with the rest.... Haha!
Those who can't back their positions discredit and divert ad nauseum.
One simple question for the men you mentioned Cal, is it better to kill a bred female when given a chance or let her have pups and take her out in June so the numbers look better for those who don't realize large numbers of dead coyotes equal large numbers of dead sheep?
That is the originally issue that is still on the table.
~SH~
[ April 21, 2017, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 23, 2017 01:37 PM
Let's see what is happening in the eastern United States in some of the remaining red fox strongholds as coyotes continue to expand across the country.
Don't know how many of you have heard of Pete and Ron Leggetts from Maryland and their impressive fox catches but this is from the Maryland DNR.
Culturally and ecologically significant species including red fox decline dramatically in response to increasing coyote populations. Eastern coyote and red fox share many common habitat requirements and occupy overlapping niches. Through time, the larger and more resilient coyote is able to out-compete and displace resident red fox populations. As a result, red fox are typically delegated to existence in small areas devoid of individual coyote home ranges. Diminishing red fox populations have currently been noted in portions of central and western Maryland.
The Maryland description is consistent with most coyote/red fox relation studies.
Phil Brown is a high volume red fox trapper from Pennsylvania, one of the few remaining red fox strongholds. In the last 3 years he has topped over 1000 red fox with a lifetime total of about 13,000 red fox.
I was curious as to how his fox were holding up to the expanding coyote population so I asked him what his red fox to coyote ratio was. Here is his answer....
This year 56 fox to 1 coyote
last year 112 fox to 1 coyote
year before 55 fox to one coyote
year before that 65 fox to one coyote
year before that 2012-13,, 219 fox to one coyote.
the last 15 years ,I have caught coyotes in every area I have trapped,in other words,they have popped up about anywhere in the counties I trap
I wouldn't exactly call that co-existence. LOL!
Research was conducted locally within the Badlands National Park on coyote home ranges through GPS radio telemetry studies to determine suitable release sites for swift fox re-introduction. Swift fox were released between coyote home ranges for potentially better survival chances, based on displacement research. Swift Fox populations seemed to be doing quite will at first due to the mange epidemic that smashed the coyote population. As coyotes recovered, swift fox populations declined. A primary mortality factor was coyotes.
Show me an expanding red fox population and I will show you a declining coyote population.
Yeh Tim Anderson, many people have seen red fox and coyotes in the same area during the winter when most are young of the year. You will be hard pressed to find many fox dens within a coyote home range during denning season unless those fox have safety zones.
Unless you have an incredibly high prey base and red fox safety zones, you just are not going to find many red fox dens within an occupied coyote denning area.
Coyotes do in fact affect red fox populations through displacement and that has been well documented.
~SH~
[ April 23, 2017, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
|
posted April 23, 2017 03:02 PM
Welp...Tim weighed in, so that is that.
--------------------
When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted April 23, 2017 03:50 PM
That last comment baffles me? What Tim?
Anyway, I don't know anything about red fox, never even killed one although I have seen a few, and I mean, a few.
But, I have a personal theory about GRAY FOX and coyotes. They are totally different from Swifts and Reds because they can climb a tree better than a cat.
That's the secret to coexistence with coyotes. If a Gray has anything it can climb, be it large boulders or any sort of tree like Mesquite or Palo Verde, even Pinon Pines, it can survive around coyotes. The whole state of Arizona is a testament to that fact. You will find coyotes everywhere, of course, but if there are trees or big rocks, the Grays can escape a coyote and they will likely be around.
I mean, they are confident enough that they will eagerly come to a call even when the area is thick with coyotes. Just as long as they can climb a tree. Hell, they prefer to sleep in a tree, just draped across a crotch out of reach of a coyote and they are perfectly happy.
I have seen Grays flying across the tops of large boulders that a coyote would have to pick around below like a maze, but the fox scampers across the top and the coyote doesn't even try to keep up; because he can't.
You give a Gray Fox the right kind of terrain and features and they can thrive right alongside coyotes, and are better at catching the rats, too.
Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. By the way, they are dominate with Red Fox. They might be a little smaller, but they are more aggressive.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ April 23, 2017, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 23, 2017 04:38 PM
Don't doubt that a bit Leonard for that very reason.
When reds are denning in coyote country, they usually have a safety zone they can run to. They don't last long if they don't.
The exception doesn't make the rule. The rule is that coyotes displace red fox and swift fox if allowed free rein.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 23, 2017 05:52 PM
More....
Researchers in Illinois have found that as coyote populations continue to increase, red foxes are moving to urban areas to avoid competing against or being preyed upon by coyotes.
[ April 23, 2017, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 23, 2017 05:57 PM
University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Coyotes are belleved to influence the distribution and abundance of red foxes (Sargeant 1982). Sargeant et. al (1 993) reported study areas that had Increased coyote track counts had a cotresponding decrease in fox track counts. Major and Sherbure (1 987) reported simultaneous locations of coyotes, bobcats, and foxes that shared ranges maintained distances between individuals. Avoidance is believed to be the principal motive for this spatial segsegation.
In areas where coyotes and red fox occur sympatsically, fox tenitories are located on the edges or outside of coyote territories. These data supported the conclusion of interference competition between foxes and coyotes (Major and Sherburne 1987). Schmidt (1 956) suggested that red foxes are excluded or displaced from areas inhabited by coyotes. The fox seems to do well around human habitations because of the lower number of coyotes (Samuel and Nelson 1 982)
Schmidt (1 986) cited references indicating that coyotes kill red foxes, although he indicated that coyotes at-e an insignificant source of mortality. Sargeant and Allen ( 1 989) reported on coyotes' antagonlstlc behavior towards foxes and identified instances of coyotes kllling foxes. However, they also c~ted radio-telemetiy studies that found no mol-tality of foxes in al-eas inhabited by coyotes
Naaaahhh, coyotes don't displace red fox populations.
~SH~
[ April 23, 2017, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 23, 2017 06:08 PM
Smithsonian Conservation Biology Institute ...
If you are a rabbit a hunting coyote may be your worst nightmare. Coyotes are smart and efficient predators, but it turns out that coyotes and other predators also have a bit of a bullying streak. Coyotes will dominate smaller canines like foxes and push them out of the best habitat and even kill them (wolves will also do the same thing to coyotes). This extreme competition is called intraguild predation, because coyotes are preying on another predator in the same level of the food chain, or animals in the same guild, instead of traditional predation on rodents or other animals lower in the food chain (Ritchie and Johnson 2009).
Competition for the same resources is one of the fundamental concepts of ecology, and the pressure of competition usually causes similar species, like coyotes and foxes, to evolve slightly different hunting strategies or preferred habitats to avoid some of that competition. For example wolves hunt valley bottoms and eat deer and elk, while coyotes hunt along forest field edges and eat rabbits and small rodents. However, canine predators tend not tolerate species that compete even a little bit, and wolves will kill coyotes and coyotes will kill foxes when these species live in the same place.
Coyotes are effective intraguild predators with all fox species, and kill and exclude gray foxes (Henke and Bryant 1999, Fedriani et al. 2000), lower swift fox density (Thompson and Gese 2007), and compete with red foxes for prey and preferred habitat (Theberge and Wedeles 1989). Where coyotes and foxes overlap coyotes are actually killing foxes, not just competing with them for prey and habitat. Wolves have the same effect on coyotes. When wolves were reintroduced to the greater Yellowstone ecosystem, coyote numbers dropped (Berger and Conner 2008), and the effects of this change rippled out into the larger mammal community. Coyotes are the main predator of pronghorn antelope calves, and wherever wolves established territories coyote populations went down and pronghorn calf survival went up (Berger et al. 2008).
Even though coyotes affect foxes in the same way that wolves affect coyotes, they do have different effects on the mammal community as a whole. Since wolves (and other apex predators like cougars) kill large prey, the leftovers from wolf kills support a whole community of scavengers and omnivores, including animals as large as bears (Wilmers et al. 2003). Coyotes kill smaller prey and do not support other animals in the same way.
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
|
posted April 25, 2017 04:37 PM
Well I can't argue with the "expurts"! LOL! I would guess that mange is always the main cause of decline in fox populations. It is proven to not be survivable by red fox. It is a death sentence. As are numerous other diseases. But we can blame coyotes if you wish. As far as the others I mentioned, and numerous others I know, they kill every coyote possible when they are heavy, and still go back and take dens out of those same areas and adjoining areas. It's just the way it is. Always has been. You seem to forget that I worked those areas for years before you and know them well. With a basically unlimited flying budget I killed every heavy bitch possible and still had plenty of dens available. It didn't magically change just because you were there. Since you insist on arguing about it here we can carry on as long as you wish. You know my views on things and we have had all these disagreements already, although it is far more enjoyable face to face over a cold beer. While I'm thinking about it, who of your experts did the study to determine that fox numbers were up in that area?
[ April 25, 2017, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
--------------------
Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted April 26, 2017 04:56 AM
Cold beer? Like Obama's Beer Summit? OK
Where did it say that Red Fox numbers were up, anywhere? Seems like that would only happen in the event that coyote numbers declined to single digits and that never happened before hell froze over?
I think there will be a "study" soon, telling us Red Fox numbers are down due to jackrabbit depredation. Creative ways for researchers to gain funding $ since they already used up the "METEOR" explanation, and GLOBAL WARMING.
<shrug> who gives a shit?
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 26, 2017 10:01 AM
3T: "I would guess that mange is always the main cause of decline in fox populations. It is proven to not be survivable by red fox. It is a death sentence".
I agree that mange, when present, is a primary cause in declining red fox populations as well as declining coyote populations which is why I added the disclaimer "absent mange and disease..". In fact, I would go so far as to say mange, when present in red fox, is probably the biggest factor affecting red fox populations.
That does not mean it is "THE ONLY" cause of declining red fox populations as I am sure you would like to spin as being my position.
The same can be said for the availability of prey/food you mentioned previously. Of course in most years, prey is readily available for both fox and coyotes in most areas.
Coyote displacement, disease, and prey are all factors to consider in red fox populations.
So the issue that remains is, absent mange and disease, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL (prey availability, human disturbance, etc.), does increasing coyote populations affect red fox and swift fox populations by displacement? The answer is yes and it is far reaching within the US.
Yes there are areas that share YOY red fox and coyote in the winter months and the rare occurrence of coyote and red fox dens in the same areas but the red fox will have safety zones they can escape to in that situation or they won't be there for long. The exception does not make the rule. There have been enough red fox killed in traps by coyotes to indicate their tolerance level for each other.
3T "But we can blame coyotes if you wish".
Again absent disease and any changes in prey availability or human disturbance, an increasing red fox and swift fox population would be indicative of a decreasing coyote population and visa versa. No wishing, just a fact. Been studied to death.
Hard to argue GPS tracking systems that show coyote home ranges relative to red fox home ranges. Very little overlap. The research by Steve Allen and Alan Sargent, as shown above, is widely cited in furbearer management literature.
3T: "As far as the others I mentioned, and numerous others I know, they kill every coyote possible when they are heavy, and still go back and take dens out of those same areas and adjoining areas. It's just the way it is. Always has been."
Well then they weren't doing it all wrong as you implied. They do just as I did which is to remove every bred female I can to dramatically reduce the number of dens that have to be removed later.
My position was never that killing bred females will eliminate the possibility of dens later, my position is and always was that killing bred females will dramatically reduce the number of dens you will have to remove later. Another "no-brainer".
So the issue that remains is, does removing bred female coyotes reduce the number of dens you have to remove later? The answer is Absolutely.
So taking this further, what are the variables that need to be considered between areas that fill back in and areas that remain void of dens due to removal of bred females prior to denning.
Here are SOME important variables to consider:
a) What period of gestation the removed bred female was in relative to other bred females in the same area and surrounding areas.
There is two variables that play into this big time and that is how tied to a den area the majority of the other female coyotes are in the area. If 80% of the bred females have set up shop and are not going to move to another den area because they are late in gestation themselves, this reduces the movement.
If you kill a bred female early in gestation and the majority of the female coyotes in the area are early in gestation, of course you will have some degree of movement. The later you are in the year, the less movement you will have ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.
As a general rule of thumb, this is how I have seen it play out repeatedly in areas that are accessible to effective aerial hunting. Fly a given areas in mid January and remove 40 coyotes. Fly the same area in mid February and remove 40 coyotes. Fly the same area in mid March and remove 20 - 30 coyotes. Fly the same area in mid April and remove 10 - 15. Fly the same area in mid May and remove 5 - 7. Fly the same area in June and remove 3.
Spacial redistribution from surrounding areas starts up again in late July and Early August. By September and October, coyote family groups can move in from everywhere. Hunters really help scatter them.
Of course that "rule of thumb" is not etched in stone and the starting point will vary from area to area but the reduction in coyotes taken with each consecutive flight is very close to how it plays out in many situations.
Then you always have the normal close to 40% of most healthy coyote populations, mostly yearlings, that move around with no ties to any particular place at any time of the year.
In addition, the lower coyote numbers are kept in the immediate and surrounding areas, the less spacial redistribution of expanding territories you will have in order to fill voids created by removed coyotes.
Both immigration and spacial redistribution are considerations.
So what other factors need to be considered?
b) Coyote population and accessibility to surrounding areas which supply coyotes to fill voids.
Difficult accessibility or inaccessibility to coyotes in surrounding areas will have a dramatic impact on how many coyotes filter back in and how quickly. The better coyote control one has in surrounding areas, the less immigration and special redistribution will occur.
This is no fault of the individual trapper but rather can make one area more challenging than another and lead to more dens needing to be removed in one area vs. another.
c) workload
The size of the area one trapper is responsible for has a dramatic impact on his ability to remove bred females prior to denning. Again, this is to no fault of the individual trapper.
d) Aerial hunting hours available.
Depending on the size area that can be covered, the amount of aerial hunting hours available, in country that is accessible to aerial hunting during March and April, will have a dramatic impact on coyote populations in those areas as well as surrounding areas.
e) Hours worked.
Of course the more time a person has available, the more pairs they can remove.
f) Individual ability.
The ability of the individual to find and remove dens is also a consideration. Some are continually learning while others think "what I don't already know is not worth knowing" which limits their learning curve.
One of the best measures of ability one can look at is coyotes taken by air vs. coyotes taken by ground in the same area with consideration to a typical amount of total hours flown.
Good hands on the ground will usually take over 60% of the coyotes taken in a given area when combining ground and air take.
So with all those variables in mind, will removal of bred females prior to denning decrease the number of dens that have to be removed later in MANY situations. Absolutely. Will it eliminate den removal later? Of course not. Nobody argued any different.
The difference between a trapper removing 15 dens in a year in a given area and another trapper removing 5 -7 dens in the same area in a different year is more likely a difference in the coyote population as well as the differences in the size area each had to cover rather than a difference in ability as implied.
3T: "You seem to forget that I worked those areas for years before you and know them well".
Didn't forget that at all. You were, at one time, even gracious enough to show me many historic den sites that proved to be very beneficial to me in following years. To which I have given you credit for repeatedly.
So I have to ask, when you were gunning for the helicopter in that area, you should have found all these dens that I "supposedly" missed. Yup, found one on M's that I damn sure missed and a less important den on the river that I hadn't got to yet but you checked a pile of old den sites. Now if you were really going to make the case for a "sub par performance" on my part of missing dens, I gave you the opportunity to do just that. How do you figure your own observations into the equation?
Now combine that with landowner sightings, livestock losses, and dens found by KH and it all seems pretty consistent that I wasn't missing many dens as you implied. You are going to be hard pressed to argue otherwise.
3T: "With a basically unlimited flying budget I killed every heavy bitch possible and still had plenty of dens available. It didn't magically change just because you were there."
It did change. Two guys were now covering what you were covering by yourself before. That is a huge change.
Of course you would take more dens, because you were covering 2500 square miles by yourself as opposed to 2 guys covering the same area.
KS and I together killed more coyotes than you did alone, which is to be expected. There was also more coyotes back then which is proven by aerial hunting records of coyotes killed per hour. In other words, the two of us killed more coyotes than you in that same 2500 square miles with less coyotes available for us to kill. Why should it be a mystery that I would take less dens with less coyotes in a smaller area??
Go grab a beer and ponder it for awhile.
Also would readily admit that you are a better denner than I with better rifle and better dogs. Even with that, KS and I are still going to do a more thorough job than you could alone. If you don't agree, that's just arrogance talking on your part.
I will readily accept justified criticism but not unjustified criticism. Your "sub par performance" argument, regarding number of coyote dens taken, is one that facts just cannot support.
3T: "Since you insist on arguing about it here we can carry on as long as you wish."
Awesome!
You are the one who challenged me remember? You are the one implying less dens = less ability rather than less coyotes available. Of course I am going to defend my position to those who would take someone's word for it.
You see, I am used to dealing with cut-throat antics which is why I initiated the livestock loss survey in WY right from the start. I know how coyote numbers are used and abused and I know what they mean and what they don't.
3T: "While I'm thinking about it, who of your experts did the study to determine that fox numbers were up in that area?"
Already know where you are going with this so let's define "up in that area" and we will certainly account for your longer history in the area. I am sure you will have a better chance defending this issue than the coyote den issue so I'll hand you the diversion.
Just in the time that I have been in Southern Campbell, swift fox dens are dramatically increasing. Proof is visible dens, sightings, and increase in incidental take. Locals will verify as well.
As far as red fox populations, of course if we go back far enough, we will find larger numbers of red fox than current. It would be just as interesting to see how the coyote populations differed in the same time frame. I would also assume that the red fox population had a crash due to mange, like many other places, which had no relation to coyote displacement.
Going to be hard to argue one factor (coyote displacement) without consideration to the other factors (mange, prey availability, and human disturbance).
With that said, incidental red fox take is also on the rise as well as sightings by myself and numerous others in contrast to immediate years prior.
Regardless of the starting point, both populations would not be increasing to the point they are if coyote populations were also increasing.
~SH~
[ April 26, 2017, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
|
posted May 01, 2017 06:28 PM
You are incorrect in the fact that I "challenged" anyone. You knew full well that I would read your comment about a "guy that takes a lot of dens not killing enough bred females" and that it was directed toward me in general. I responded and should have ignored it. You can babble on endlessly if you wish, but I don't have time for responding at the lengths you do. I know swiftys are on the increase, so what. Apparently coyotes don't affect them much. The first ones I ever saw were down around Medicine Bow in a staggering high coyote population. Red fox don't den near coyotes, I assume everyone knows that. There's lots of places in this country where coyotes don't live. So with a staggering prey base the fox population is up. Again, so what. You can't possibly convince me that coyote populations did anything but explode while you were here. Blame it on whatever you want. I had numerous ranchers, land managers, etc. tell me how the populations were trending. If you want to keep hammering it out I can get specific and show exactly proof of those numbers. I saw the last few aerial flights there and the numbers firsthand. I personally don't think this is the place to keep this going, but if you insist we can . We can get into all the other phases of coyote control, like shooting percentages, calling, M44's, ground crewing, locating for the plane, tracking cripples for the plane, (and including finding dens of wet bitches the plane shot) and on and on.... but again this isn't the place, and I'm not sure that's really what you would want aired out here.
I never said I could outperform anyone, let alone any two. I haven't made any claims to fame about anything. I just try to do my job to the best of my ability. I try to learn constantly, but I want to learn from the guys that can KILL coyotes, not the guys that write studies about it. I've found that most that are good at writing studies, aren't really any good at the rest. Show all your studies to Bill Dixon, Rock Buckingham, or Robbie Campbell, etc. and see how far you get. You know that I feel that and we've had all the discussions concerning it. My job is to kill coyotes, nothing else, and you know how I feel about the rest. So with that I'd prefer not to continue this discussion on an open forum, but if you want to continue to poke the bull...
--------------------
Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted May 02, 2017 07:08 AM
Good post, Cal.
I think you are probably right, no sense in squabbling over issues that are far too deep for the average person to appreciate. Kiss and make up, ya big lug!
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
