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Author Topic: Decoy dogs and their misuse
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108

Icon 1 posted February 07, 2017 05:25 PM      Profile for Wiley E   Email Wiley E         Edit/Delete Post 
With their recent gain in popularity, I have been thinking a lot lately about how to address the issue of decoy dogs and what their best application is for the recreational coyote hunters that are so inclined to become self-proclaimed ADC men. So I guess I'll just wade in and hope I can get my point across without raining on the parade too much.

As a point of clarification and to not add any more confusion to this discussion, any reference from me about "dogs" will be referencing decoy dogs and not coyotes unless I am specifically talking about the dog (male) coyote. Coyotes will be referred as coyotes, not "dogs" and anyone who would call a coyote a "dog" obviously doesn't have much experience working with both of them together due to the confusion the slang term creates.

Like many closely held ADC practices (pup distress, locating coyotes, howling, etc.), it was only a matter of time before some within the ADC fraternity would find more importance in self-notoriety than in their devotion to keeping effective ADC tools under their hats for the sake of more efficient livestock protection.

Like most ADC methods, once they become popular with the recreational coyote hunter, they easily become abused, misused, and misunderstood. Particularly on You Tube where their is usually only a portrayal of when things work correctly, from the standpoint of decoying, but no understanding of how many times and in what situations it doesn't work. In addition you seldom hear anything from the standpoint of techniques to kill the highest percentage of what is called in or finishing the job by finding and taking the den of pups associated with those adult coyotes in the summer months.

In contrast, what you will usually see is a pair of coyotes that come running in and show aggression towards the dogs, one of them gets shot MAYBE, and the other runs off to now take care of the den by itself. The callers "high five" each other and think they saved the world by killing a single summertime coyote out of a pair.

Killing only one of a denning pair of coyotes, if it happens to be near sheep, can cause a bigger problem than it solved by leaving one adult to fend for those pups. In most cases, a single coyote left to fend for pups can enhance livestock problems due to the importance of finding a readily obtainable source of food for those pups. Killing one of a pair also makes the second coyote more difficult for the poor ADC man who has to mop this mess up behind the "high fiver".

Although use of decoy dogs is perfectly legal, there are some ethical considerations that should at least be worthy of discussion. First, if you are near sheep and you kill one of the pair, do you care if the other coyote becomes more prone to killing livestock as a result? Second, if you kill both of the adults, is it ok with you to let the pups starve to death or will you search and find the den and gas the pups like a responsible ADC person would? Most ADC trappers put in a lot of time looking for those dens. Many are found, some are not.

So let's start with a few simple facts about decoy dogs. You can have aggressive dogs and aggressive coyotes and you can have timid dogs and timid coyotes and each combination will give you different results.

Aggressive coyotes can kill small timid dogs or rip them open and aggressive dogs can and will on many occasions run timid coyotes out of the country. I know guys who thought the decoy dog thing would be cool to try so they turned their little Heinz 57 mutt loose on an aggressive pair of adult coyotes which made short work of the mutt. "Gee, guess that didn't work so good".

Decoy dogs are an ADC tool, not a recreational fur harvesting tool for those who think it's cool to shoot a barking coyote at close range. On many occasions, if used during the winter months, they will run a lot of coyotes out of gun range. During the prime fur months, most coyotes are young migrants and the older territorial coyotes elicit less territorial behavior because they are no longer defending pups in a hole somewhere. For that reason, in most cases, during the fur months, decoy dogs will cost you more coyotes than they will gain you if they have enough aggression to hold up to adult coyotes during the summer months. If they are timid and stay close to you they might not hurt you too bad if you can keep them from getting crunched.

When good manageable trained decoy dogs are most effective is from June - August when the pups are usually at or near the den area. It is also far more effective in coyote populations of older more mature coyotes which is usually not the case in areas that are worked heavily for sheep protection.

In southern Campbell County Wyoming, where I worked most recently, the vast majority of coyotes were yearlings and a very high percentage of them were afraid of their own shadows. You could be within 1/2 mile of the den and many would sneak off the minute they saw the dogs. Get them shot, roll their lips back and seldom were they older than 2 years old.

In contrast, in areas with higher coyote populations and more 2+ year old coyotes in the mix, these coyotes will show a lot more aggression and many times have a yearling or two with them which I believe, many times, is a pup or two from a previous litter that stayed with the adults. Roll the lips back on the adult pair and they are obviously 2+ year old coyotes.

So before you go investing in a decoy dog because you think it was so cool to watch them work coyotes on You Tube, think about when you will be using them and where and think about the mess you might be creating for a sheep producer or the ADC man taxed with protecting those sheep.

Hope I didn't offend anyone too bad. I am looking at what is best for the livestock producers in certain areas, not what might be fun for the recreational coyote hunter.

PILE ON!

~SH~

[ February 07, 2017, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]

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Leonard
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Icon 6 posted February 07, 2017 06:28 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Good post Scott,

I'm just going to hold off and let somebody else rip ya. [Smile]
I'm kidding.

But, I noticed 6-8 separate issues to comment on, some positive and some negative.

But, always well thought out arguments!

Good hunting. El Bee

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Posts: 31258 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Displayed Name
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Icon 1 posted February 08, 2017 10:26 AM      Profile for Displayed Name   Email Displayed Name         Edit/Delete Post 
I won't rip because I see this is close to the heart and real topic here but I will say some of these same things are real topics and close to the heart for recreational hunters too.

Point being I took a pure bred lab prob ten years ago that was going to be put down because it wasn't "making the cut" training wise for birds.

I took it and we had a hell of a lot of fun and I have some really wonderful memories of old blue coyote hunting. Did we know what we were doing, not really but we shot coyotes and I would go retrieve them because Blue couldn't locate a dead coyote worth shit. We had fun and I wish I still had him because those experiences were definitely "cool". I put $1000 into him trying to save him when he was 4 but the cancer was too quick. Cried putting him down.

Lines are meant to be blurred in life and very little is one dimensionally point of fact.

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knockemdown
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Icon 1 posted February 08, 2017 12:16 PM      Profile for knockemdown   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Not rippin' either, and can actually agree with Scott's logic. Having a 'pet' dog on stand is really just a novelty.

I pretty much stopped taking my dog at all, 'cept for fukkin' around lately on some night stands. In the day, he's off like a shot after a coyote, and that usually ends with not killing one. And being that NY has a season on coyotes, I can't even hunt my dog when 'decoying' might actually provide some (daytime) excitement...

Should add, there are literally ZERO gov't hunters/trappers, etc. in my AO. So, all of the valid reasons Scott offered about potentially undermining professional control efforts simply don't factor in. Not here, anyway...

That all said, this IS the US of America, and we are free to do as we please, within the confines of the law. So, I'm sure not gonna condemn everyone who wants to try to have some 'fun' with their dog, on stand. Heck, I have a performance bred dog, and LOVE to see him do what he does! If I lived where it was legal to hunt coyotes in the summer, I'd very likely take my dog on stand more than I've already done, during "non-ideal" times.

I'm aware of potentially leaving pups to fend for themselves, at that time of the year. That is not something I'd be thrilled about, and reckon the novelty of 'decoying' might wear thin with that thought in the back of my head. Heck, I want as many pups to live as possible! That means more coyotes to call, recreationally, during our season (10/1-3/28)

Just $.02 from someone who's a 100% fun caller, has run my dog on stand during our (not 'decoy'dog ideal) limited season, and does not affect gov't control measures.

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted February 08, 2017 08:32 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
That's funny, Fred.

You know, I took my Redbone with me one time. She chased off three coyotes and I never got a shot.

I left her in the truck and she locked herself in, I had a hell of a time breaking in, with her helping!

First and last time.

Good Hunting. El Bee

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Brent Parker
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Icon 1 posted February 09, 2017 06:28 AM      Profile for Brent Parker   Email Brent Parker         Edit/Delete Post 
Scott,
For the most part I agree with you. I use a dog for fall/winter coyotes for the last 11 years. Now the intensity is not the same as in the spring, I do use a softer dog in the fall. The dog works more as a sight decoy but with older males and females it can become interesting fast. I will admit that a dog will cost you coyotes in the beginning as some young timid coyotes will turn and run at the sight of the dog. However I have seen instance were the coyote get's mad at the sight of the dog and all the commotion creates excitement drawing others. I have seen instances were two coyotes would work together while one tries to steal the rabbit as the other lures the dog off. I have also seen instances were multiples have come in and because of the dog no one left alive. For myself a dog has been and most likely will continue to be an asset for fall/winter calling.
I use a dog in the spring, I kill coyotes with a dog and rifle. I spend some time locating prior and normally have a pretty good idea were the den is at. Out of the 12 pairs I killed last year 9 dens were located and removed. Dog was a big help in finding those as well. My male dog really seems to enjoy it.

We have a local predator guy, seems to spend more time on skunks and snake calls. While I realize not all federal predator men are not like him and a lot of them are very good, ours is not and my biggest asset for my business.
I have a predator control business and our state really handicaps us. No gas, no M44 no plane work. I have a rifle ,dogs and traps at my disposal. So far I have been able to stop every complaint I have had. Not all were easy, not all were as quick as I or the rancher would have liked. As you know every circumstance is different. I have to make money I have no subsidy and no one paying my bills or gas.
I have used everything from H-57 to pure breeds. Seems to be more the dog than the breeding, takes a lot of dogs to find a good one.

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted February 09, 2017 07:20 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Very good post, Brent.

One of the things I'm going to mention when I wade into the discussion, is the self centeredness of various people. And, you did hit on it. For instance, Fred is a bachelor, and is very close to his dog. If having the dog running around the stand and squirting on every bush is counter productive to Scott's mission; well, that's just too fucking bad. Know what I mean? We can't lose sight of objectives but on the other hand, when his only joy in life is just being in the woods with his canine buddy, this is the kind of guy that can laugh it off if ol' shep runs a pair away from certain death!

In other words, some people really don't give a shit about sheep and like the idea of the coyote's roaming free as a bird and interacting with nature. This is why some assholes insist on reintroducing grizzlies and wolves to our National Parks. And, in some cases, it is debatable whether those top of the food chain predators were ever there, in the first place?

Put another way, if you raise sheep, which are stupid, that's your problem, not recreational hunters, (and taxpayers, BTW) responsibility. They most likely view predator hunting as a fair contest with a noble animal and don't view the outcome, or objective, as very important.

Pass a law; no dogs in the woods.... because it might cause a problem for Scott's efforts.

No, I'm being silly, but we have to step back and at least try to look at these things from a different perspective.

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31258 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108

Icon 1 posted February 09, 2017 12:44 PM      Profile for Wiley E   Email Wiley E         Edit/Delete Post 
Leonard :"One of the things I'm going to mention when I wade into the discussion, is the self centeredness of various people."

I agree Leonard, to wade into sheep production areas with a decoy dog and kill one out of a pair and never spend a minute looking for the den IF YOU KNOW THIS WILL CAUSE FURTHER LIVESTOCK LOSS, is excessively, self-centered.

"To hell with the f***ing sheep producer, I want my fun even if it is on private land and the fur is of no value".

Good point!

~SH~

[ February 09, 2017, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]

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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
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Icon 1 posted February 09, 2017 05:03 PM      Profile for DanS           Edit/Delete Post 
Well I am one of those bachelor guys who hunts with his dog. My dog is my buddy, so I enjoy having her with me when I hunt.

I don't pretend to be an ADC guy. Wouldn't take that occupation if offered. I'm not knocking it, it's just not for me. I don't even want to be out there during tick, chigger, mosquitoes season. And My dog is too timid. She wouldn't last very long against an aggressive coyote, much less a pair. Turkey season starts up and that's even getting to the point of I'd rather be fishing, or even breaking out the golf clubs. [Smile]

Mostly, I already have a full time job/career for over 30 years in the construction trades. But I sure as hell enjoy watching my dog come alive when she sees a coyote, and hell yea, I enjoy pulling the trigger on them. Yep, it is recreation for me. I am only out there basically from Nov-Feb for the most part. I may start working on the bass boat shortly, crappy season then Striper is real close. now

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knockemdown
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Icon 1 posted February 10, 2017 05:10 AM      Profile for knockemdown   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
One thing to add, regarding my AO...

Man, there are like 4 different groups of hound hunters that operate within 30 miles of the farm. With that amount of dog power scouring the countryside for a coyote to run, it doesn't take long for a coyote to equate:
DOG = DANGER!!!

Reckon that has a good bit to do with why we don't really enjoy much wintertime calling success with my dog on stand. Figure a coyote's 'knee-jerk' reaction when it sees a dog running at it, is to get outta Dodge City while the gettin's good...

Next time up, we're gonna hook up with a local crew and imma throw my dog in a coyote race. He's almost 7yrs old, but still has a good bit of motor under the hood, and plenty of track drive. Will be fun to try, anyway!

[ February 10, 2017, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]

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Eddie
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Icon 1 posted February 10, 2017 05:52 AM      Profile for Eddie   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Our local government trapper is so full of himself that he thinks he can walk on water
They been running coyotes in Okla. with sight and trail dogs for over a 100 yrs.
So for me using a dog for hunting comes natural.
As far as killing a hole den out we don't do that, got to leave some to eat all the dead wild horses that you people up north and out west keep sending back here to live out there lives.
Just had to throw that in there, those wild horses have made several cattlemen rich around my part of the country.

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted February 10, 2017 08:07 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, that's a point. I have seen herds of mustangs numbering in the hundreds, they do not need Federal protection. Same with burros. They take over watering holes and guzzlers and chase off bighorns, pronghorns and all other NATIVE critters.

I long for the day that our wildlife policies are determined by logic instead of emotion. When you get a group of female horse lovers together, expect a bunch of sappy reasons directed at feral horse protection.

First of all, I don't hunt during denning season, at all. But if I did, I would not be troubled by leaving orphan pups to starve. Okay, maybe they are adopted, I don't know?

Anyway Scott. Your argument directed at me is unrecognizable. I have never killed a coyote during denning season, you are talking to the wrong person. You might have a valid argument directed at someone that envisions himself as an amateur control specialist. In my view, both of you are a bit self centered, the novice and the professional. You have to deal with the real world, as it is. "They" ( the amateurs) don't know what you are talking about, but that's why the ranchers need you to take care of business.

You are wishing to dictate to a lot of people, rules that only apply to and benefit a very few. The few that can control their property but not adjacent land where dude hunters are free to shoot any called coyote without consideration of your particular concerns.

What do you want, a law that prevents anybody from hunting coyotes with their dog? A fine if half of a pair escapes?

You just need to live with the situation and quit whining about it.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: HOWEVER. Don't get me wrong. I congratulate you on highlighting another thought provoking subject. Your perspective is very interesting.

[ February 10, 2017, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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WhiteMtnCur
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Icon 1 posted February 10, 2017 11:50 AM      Profile for WhiteMtnCur   Author's Homepage   Email WhiteMtnCur         Edit/Delete Post 
Before this descends into what a worthless shitheap WS is, and the recreational guys get protective of their coyotes and damn the sheepmen, I want to derail the thread a little.

For you ADC guys who den- In the pursuit of absolute lowest achievable lamb losses: why do you choose to make a stand with your dogs before you’re feet-in-the-hole?

Knowing the skill required of the dogs, and the man handling a very dynamic situation with the intent of consistently killing the pair (more importantly, the pair and sitters), why make a stand until you’ve located the pups?

I won’t hardly get out of the saddle until I can be feet-in-the-hole. I’ll type up my reasoning for why I’ve gone that route for my coyote and sheep conditions, and I’ll post it as soon as I get it finished. I’m asking because I know there are some good denners here and I’d like to learn a little before the thread goes downhill too much.

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Wiley E
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Icon 1 posted February 10, 2017 02:42 PM      Profile for Wiley E   Email Wiley E         Edit/Delete Post 
Leonard,

I was only responding to your comment about "self-centeredness" because, as I see it, who is "self-centered" depends on which side of this issue they are standing.

This isn't some elitist position of me trying to provide decoy dog rules to others. It is simply to present the facts of the situation and hope they are worthy of consideration in certain circumstances.

If there is any "mean spiritedness" here by me, it is directed at those who claim to be doing predator control work, to justify being there during the tick and mosquito season or are using the ADC title to gain access to screw up coyotes and cause more problems than they are solving.

Consideration is all I am asking for the sake of the livestock producers it affects in those RARE situations. I don't care who agrees or disagrees.

As has been pointed out, in most cases, the livestock concern does not even apply because few areas in the west are actually sheep production areas.

More importantly, decoy dogs, if not understood to their correct application, can easily cost recreational coyote hunters more coyotes than they will gain them. That's just a cold fact and should be of value to anyone considering using decoy dogs. A recreational hunter can go on YouTube, see decoy dogs in action, and not realize that this is probably a denning pair of aggressive coyotes DURING THE DENNING SEASON that will act totally different in that situation than a timid migrant yearling during the fur season. I know this because I have coached more than a few guys who were ready to go out, buy a decoy dog, and set the world on fire.

Sorry if I over reacted to your comment but I think I know you well enough to know when your pushing buttons and you also had a pretty good idea how I would respond didn't you? LOL!

Oh, and quit whining about my supposed whining.

Brent,

Sounds like you know what you are doing. That's great!

Eddie,

Taking you at your word, sorry your government trapper has that attitude. Most all ADC men started off as recreational fur hunters or trappers. I know I did and sure as hell didn't forget my roots. Arrogance to the "what I don't know is not worth knowing" level is really a self defeating cancer when it comes to coyote killing. Anyone who thinks they have coyotes figured out doesn't know anything about coyotes. Coyotes, through their constantly changing adaptable behavior, will not allow for arrogance. The best coyote men know that. I appreciate where you are coming from.

WMC,

As far as "feet in the den", I would rather keep my distance until the adults are both dead rather than risk den movement because I disturbed the den area with aggressive dogs and timid coyotes that weren't having any of it "feet in the den" or not. When you start making hard fast rules like "feet in the den", it's just a matter of time before you find out that it's not the best approach in every situation.

~SH~

[ February 10, 2017, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]

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WhiteMtnCur
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Icon 1 posted February 10, 2017 04:32 PM      Profile for WhiteMtnCur   Author's Homepage   Email WhiteMtnCur         Edit/Delete Post 
Trying to consistently accomplish anything with coyotes seems to lead to frustration on some regular basis. And sitting directly on the pups is no exception.

I had taken a den in a rock pile three days previous on the spine of the ridge in the background. I spent four hours sitting on the rock pile, and shot 3 adults, but no wet bitch. The dogs fished out and accounted for 6 pups. Since I had no bitch to get a scar count from, and I never glassed up an additional coyote watching the antics, or heard distant howling, I chalked it up for success. That band of sheep lost a lamb each night for the next two nights, so I came back with den hounds and pounded the track off last night’s kill until we got caught up to a single remaining pup in a patch of quakies. Once the dogs caught the pup, this bitch came down off the ridge and made for an easy shot to stop the problem. She showed 7 scars on her horns.

 - [/URL][/IMG]

So I’m the first to say it doesn’t always work, and in that circumstance I can assume I was directly at fault for being overly aggressive on working that group at the rock pile where the pups were, and that bitch wanted no part of it.

But I’ve found that calling in proximity to a den based on ridge camping and hearing howling or audio locates seems to consistently kill fewer adults. Sitting on the pups generally kills a higher number of adults. In situations where the adults refuse to work the dogs, and I only succeed in smoking the pups, killing consistently stops or consistently doesn’t start in nearby sheep.

I’m curious why it is that I see this difference? Difference in population demographics? Terrain and high brush/timber at 8-10,000’ where all this takes place is not always conducive to good visibility for making stands but more shot opportunities arise at the den?

I’m mostly pondering aloud at this point. I don’t mean to derail the point of this thread any further.

Posts: 97 | From: Nevada | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
CrossJ
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Icon 1 posted February 11, 2017 06:25 PM      Profile for CrossJ   Email CrossJ         Edit/Delete Post 
Eddie, what county are you in?

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Eddie
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Icon 1 posted February 12, 2017 01:36 PM      Profile for Eddie   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
North eastern Okla.....Pawnee county.
Osage county to the north just across the Arkansas river is we're all the horses are kept.

Posts: 275 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
CrossJ
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Icon 1 posted February 12, 2017 03:07 PM      Profile for CrossJ   Email CrossJ         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, figured you were describing some of the Drummonds.

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Eddie
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Icon 1 posted February 12, 2017 07:31 PM      Profile for Eddie   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
My oldest sons lands lays next to the Hughes ranch up by Bartlesville. They got probably got 400 to 500 head on there land.
Where abouts you located CrossJ

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btech29
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Icon 1 posted February 13, 2017 05:22 PM      Profile for btech29           Edit/Delete Post 
That was an excellent, well written post Wiley, and I tend to agree with it.

I dont post here, or anywhere anymore. Im not even a lurker. I rarely post anywhere anymore. A buddy told me about this post, so I checked it out. I have a slightly different take. I have given this decoy dog deal a lot of thought, and it has brought me a great deal of misery. Im not an authority but I do have an opinion, even though it is worth next to nothing. I guess Im here to tell my thoughts on this deal. Just let folks know why I do it. Im not here to stir up any problems or any arguments.

I am a 100% rec hunter. I dont do any kind of ADC work. I just love to hunt coyotes. A dog adds to my calling time and I love being the only idiot out there in the 100 degree heat chasing coyotes. No one around but me and my dogs. I love watching them work, and killing a hairless coyote is just a bonus. I dont want to kill all the coyotes I call in. I want to work them again next year, and the year after that. The stuff I seen was so cool I got the bright idea to start filming it. No one would believe it without seeing it, right? I would love to take it back, but I cant.

I totally agree with what your saying about creating problem coyotes in certain areas. I also cringe about the thoughts of leaving pups in the den to fend for themselves. I try to do the bulk of my calling in July and August to help avoid that problem.

Ive hunted my area for close to 15 years, most of that time without a dog. I have never once heard of a calf being killed by a coyote. My states dont have any form of Government control of coyotes. No ADC hunters to create problems for. Have never created a problem coyote that I am aware of. If I ass up a coyote, its me who has to deal with him until he dies of natural causes.

I hate the frenzy of new decoy dog hunters as bad as you do. Im one of the Youtube guys you are talking about, but I still agree with what you are saying. Like I said earlier, if I could go back and smash that first video camera I bought and never have started filming I would in a heart beat.

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CrossJ
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Member # 884

Icon 1 posted February 13, 2017 05:49 PM      Profile for CrossJ   Email CrossJ         Edit/Delete Post 
Eddie, I am in Craig . I hunt alot of ground in Osage, but it is mostly central and nw part of county. I do alot of work for a pipeline that crosses through the SE portion though.....some good ground down there.

quote:
Like I said earlier, if I could go back and smash that first video camera I bought and never have started filming I would in a heart beat.
One of the most honest comments I've ever heard. I've heard it from others.

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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.

Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4354

Icon 1 posted February 13, 2017 06:10 PM      Profile for Brent Parker   Email Brent Parker         Edit/Delete Post 
Scott,

Thanks for the compliment, I have worked hard to get where I am today. I am not afraid to say I have taken lessons from G-Men and have benefited from their experience.

It was Bill Austin that is responsible for me pursuing this path. I bought his hand calls,cassette tapes and a video he had showing a dog being used on a denning stand and I was hooked. We spoke on the phone numerous times and he always answered my questions. I guess he felt sorry for a dumb kid from the midwest. Coyote vocals and hunting coyotes has been an obsession ever since.

I do understand your frustration seeing it from both sides of the fence. All we can do is adapt and change. The coyotes are going too!!

Brent

Posts: 172 | From: 2 miles east of Vic | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted February 13, 2017 08:03 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Boy, we have opinions from all over the map on this one. Funny thing is, just about everybody has a fair point or two.

But, you know, the amateurs with their dog pal really aren't out there all that much, are they? So, how much actual damage do they do? Maybe it's worse than I know about?

I'll tell you one thing, now that I think about it. That's exactly what Higgins does, mainly on purpose. He has said many times, I just like to mess with their little minds. That doesn't necessarily include killing them. In fact years ago, he used to shoot them with paintball guns. Until somebody pointed out to him that it was against AZ game laws to harass animals in any way. I suppose you could include "calling" them, even if you just let them go without killing them.

Anyway, Scott. Food for thought. For sure, it's harder than it looks. But, no doubt, it's amazing to watch how completely absorbed the coyotes get with the dogs, while they totally ignore the humans. PRIORITIES !

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: I just happened to think. the big deal about calling with a dog: How easy it is the kill the coyotes. They are all pretty much chip shots.

[ February 13, 2017, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31258 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted April 05, 2017 02:12 PM      Profile for Cdog911   Author's Homepage   Email Cdog911         Edit/Delete Post 
Comment, and then a question for Scott. I had no less than six different people stop me this year and ask me about decoy dogs after they were directed to a YouTube video of same. In every instance, I took a moment and explained to them how the "pros" in hunting videos spend countless hours just trying to string together a dozen decent looking kills, and how the decoy videos rarely show the problems that can come from having a dog on the stand with you outside of denning time, emphasizing that the best information you should take from those videos is the parts they forgot to include.

The only dogs I've ever used on coyotes were either trail hounds or coursing them with greyhounds. Aside from watching Q's recovery terriers work one once, I don't have any experience with this and don't want any because, having trained, run, and competed coon hounds in the past, I know too well how much time it takes, and time is what I don't seem to have much of.

I don't hunt during whelping and denning, but only because I would rather they grew up and were full sized coyotes before I shot at them. Having said that, I have shot a couple puppies when a landowner demanded it of me. I figure that chances are pretty good that each of them would have grown up to be a coyote someday, so I was just getting onto the problem a few weeks early. Other than that, this time of the year is for growing shit, not killing shit.

Now, to Scott. I know you have said that you don't do anything to compel a pair to move a den but do you ever take the time before moving in to take the pair to get them to open up and divulge the den location before you take them, to save time locating the den for gassing afterwards? I would think that would be the best chess move as far as time management, when and where possible.

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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.

Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108

Icon 1 posted April 16, 2017 09:09 AM      Profile for Wiley E   Email Wiley E         Edit/Delete Post 
C-dog,

Sorry I haven't got back to answer your question sooner. Don't get here as often as I'd like to.

The short answer to your question is Yes, it is advantageous to locate the den before setting up to call and/or decoy and remove the coyotes.

With that said, there is two huge factors that play into your question regarding locating the pups in order to take the den and that is the seasonal coyote population in a given area (coyotes that remain after heavy preventative removal efforts or lack thereof) and the age of that coyote population.

Due to the sheep production in Southern Campbell County WY and the continual assault on the population of coyotes there, that area has a low coyote population in contrast to other areas. This has been proven by recording coyotes killed per hour during aerial hunts where we are locating a high percentage of the coyotes taken. Aerial hunting coyote kills, over a lot of hours, is a pretty fool proof method of depicting a given coyote population in open accessible country and comparing it to another if the ground efforts to locate them and the terrain is relatively the same. The only way to achieve below a 2.6% recorded lamb loss is with an equally low coyote population. They go hand in hand.

As an example, in Harding Co SD the coyote population was .5 coyotes killed per hour of aerial hunting for many years when they had an excellent trapper covering that county and a solid aerial hunting program. That was exactly where the coyote population needed to be in order to minimize livestock losses. After the destruction of the SD ADC program by a GF&P administration that didn't believe in predator control, the coyote population in Harding Co. is now at about 5 coyotes killed per hour, sheep numbers there have declined by 27% since 2009, and the county is now filled with guard dogs to attempt to protect the remaining sheep which make it difficult to remove coyotes.

Second, because the population in Southern Campbell County was kept that low, the population you are dealing with is mostly migrant yearlings that fill the voids as those voids are created. With plenty of territory, habitat, and food to themselves and due to their younger age, their lack of aggression is noticeable.

Next factor to consider is that I didn't take many dens in Southern Campbell County (5-7 per year average) because with 2 trappers working the south half of that county we killed most of the bred females before they ever had a chance to pup. Any rancher in that area will call you as soon as they hear or see coyotes. You can't hide them from a sheep producer for very long.

Show me a man that takes a lot of coyote dens and I will show you a man that couldn't or didn't kill enough bred females before they denned. It all comes down to livestock loss being the tell all measure of the quality of ADC service and how low coyote populations in a given area contribute to that.

Now add in that I was working two dogs that became pretty aggressive towards the end, and a host of piss poor dogs before that.

What does all this mean? It means there is a lot of factors that play into whether or not anyone is successful with decoy dogs. Increase the population, increase the number of breeding pairs and competitiveness/territorial behavior, and increase the age of the coyote population due to reduced control efforts, and you have much better opportunities to locate pups and better results with decoy dogs.

My best decoy dog experiences were in SD by far. In WY, most of the coyotes that I decoyed were young coyotes and unwilling to work a pair of decoy dogs like an older more aggressive coyote pair would. In hindsight, I would have had more success, on those rare dens, had I used one dog as opposed to a pair. I can honestly say that decoy dogs cost me as many coyotes as they gained me in that situation. Lessons learned!

Prolly more information than you wanted or needed. Lol!

~SH~

[ April 16, 2017, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]

Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged


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