|
Author
|
Topic: A request for input
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted April 13, 2014 10:37 AM
Seeing as how this group offers a cross section of coyote hunters from all across the fruited plain, I would like you guys' input for a project I'm preparing to embark on.
When I was young, the state of Kansas did not allow any coyote hunting during firearms deer season because of the problems associated with being able to distinguish coyote hunters from deer poachers who just claimed to be coyote hunting.
That law was repealed and for the past twenty years or so, there have been no restrictions on coyote hunting during that time.
Today, between regular firearms season, and several other antlerless-only management season, deer season in some form or another runs from mid-September through mid-January statewide.
For the game wardens in the state, all the attention that Kansas has garnered with our trophy-class whitetails has created a problem they are trying to address that involves guys like me. Road hunters after deer, when checked, claim to be hunting coyotes. It happens all the time. For example, my local NRO stopped a pickup this season with TX plates. All three men inside were in full hunter orange per regulations during deer season (which it was). All three had big bore rifle (.300 Win Mag), but when confronted with the NRO's inquiry as to what they were hunting from the road, they claimed they were looking for a coyote. Not a thing he could do about them.
The KS Dept. of Wildlife & Parks concern about coyote hunting from the road focuses on the enforcement problems associated with the frequent and growing problem as described above, and how they can eliminate the circumstances that allow that to happen.
About six years ago, 18 year old Beau Arndt was goose hunting with friends. They were all lying in a cut bean field in those low profile ground blinds when Arndt was shot and killed by a man shooting from the road at what he claimed to be a coyote.
Myself, and my partner, Lance Brooks, with whom I help plan and coordinate the Kansas Predator Challenge, have discussed our growing concern about the issue of safety for our contestants and all predator callers in Kansas because the state continues to allow shooting from the road to continue. Bear in mind, it is illegal in Kansas to shoot at any other "game animal" or "furbearer", but you can go all Fallujah on coyotes anytime, anywhere. Our specific concern is that within a hunting genre that is growing in size every year, we are concerned that someone will shoot from the road either at a coyote responding to the call, or at a hunter's decoy, not realizing that there are hunters in the vicinity, and that a caller will be hurt or killed. It's illegal to shoot at turkeys and deer for those reasons, and there's no reason the same should not hold true for coyotes. (IMO)
Furthermore, I very much dislike the fact that poachers and violators are allowed by law to circumvent the law by using a claim to be what I am - a coyote hunter - when it will get them off the hook.
The NRO's want to push for regulations that would eliminate this problem, and I am all for that. I am preparing to write our Commissioners a letter outlining what I hope will be a series of suggestions that they can consider that will fix this problem by creating an enforceable regulation that NRO's can use to deal with these offenders, while at the same time minimize, if not avoid, any new regulations that would unfairly penalize legitimate coyote hunting activities.
For instance, if they make it illegal to hunt coyote during deer season, that is an unfair law for coyote hunters because it shows preference over one legitimate group over the interests of another and deprives coyote hunters who have done nothing wrong access to hunting.
I would like you guys' input on any ideas you have to help me forge a bullet proof, unassailable list of recommendations. Both positive and negative input is appreciated.
My NRO told me this past week that one idea they are considering is that you must have a valid deer tag in your possession to shoot at coyotes during deer season, but IMO, that doesn't actually address the problem - road hunting for deer under the guise of being a coyote hunter.
IMO, any such new regulation should make it unlawful to shoot at a coyote from the traveled portion of a public road or its immediate right of way. In other words, you can shoot at coyotes, but not from the road or the road ditch.
Now, the only question has to do with "when".
Personally, I would like to see this year-round. We have about three weeks of easy calling in October and the first week of November before you can go out any morning of the week and watch guys in trucks driving slowly down country roads looking for a young, dumb coyote to smoke. Half of them won't even go pick them up. They're just out there to kill them. By Thanksgiving, the coyotes are so skittish that the calling numbers plummet even though the coyotes are there. Thus, selfishly, I would like to see shooting at coyotes from the road stopped so that we can preserve the quality of calling longer into the season, as well as being a matter of safety.
But, I don't see year-round happening.
Realistically, if I can convince the Commissioners of the safety issue, as well as the need to resolve the enforcement problems, I see us outlawing shooting from the road during all deer seasons which would begin with the youth season in mid-September and running through the late antlerless seasons to mid-January. This won't provide the KPC people protection since we hold our hunt the last full week in January, but it may be the best I can expect.
Share your thoughts with me, if you will. All opinions welcome, good and bad.
In advance, I know it's not a good thing to restrict hunting in any way. And I'm not trying to do that. I'm asking them to look at how this activity - an activity I consider to be both unethical and dangerous - adversely impacts the safety and perception of legitimate hunting, and to tweak the regulations under which coyotes are hunted to create a better set of circumstances for coyote hunters, deer hunters, and those who enforce game laws, alike.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
Member # 3785
|
posted April 13, 2014 12:26 PM
All good with me-I hate road hunters.
On the other hand,I suspect there might be one,maybe 2,ranchers in your State that will support you.
Posts: 623 | From: SoDak | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted April 13, 2014 12:59 PM
Not getting it, Lance?
what's the law? You can shoot coyotes from a vehicle on the road, but not deer?
In CA, there are no circumstances for which you can discharge a firearm from a road. They don't care if you are defending against Aliens from outer space, you are breaking the law to shoot from the road.
Besides that, the wardens, whatever you call them there, they can stop people in orange vests driving a country road kinda like probably cause, or what?
I'm unclear on what is going on and totally clueless as to what you expect to do about it?
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
|
posted April 13, 2014 01:12 PM
I was shocked the first time I was in Kansas and found out you could shoot from the road. In Oklahoma you cannot transport a loaded firearm unless you have a concealed carry permit. Under no circumstances can you shoot from the road at any critter.
Our problem is leases are so high, the fines are cheaper if you get caught than paying a lease. Road hunting is trash hunting and needs to be stopped not encouraged by allowing coyotes to be shot.
You're not trying to restrict hunting cause shooting from the road is not hunting.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
|
posted April 13, 2014 01:52 PM
Shooting at any species, at any time from the road should not be allowed. Where there's a will, there's a way, and jackasses will find it, and use it. AZ is pretty lenient. We can travel here with a loaded firearm at the ready, but shooting on, over, or above a designated road, which includes nearly every 2 track trail, is against the law. AZGFD has several full body mounts they place in likely places and issue several citations every year for jackasses shooting them. I've seen some of the mounts/targets, and they get pretty shot up.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted April 13, 2014 02:50 PM
LB,
Managing coyotes, for lack of a better term, is different in Kansas than managing other wildlife. Wild animals in Kansas fall into specific categories: game animals, furbearers, nongame wildlife, and varmints. Coyotes are classified as varmints and have historically had little to no protection under law. Kill them by whatever means you feel is necessary. Just don't let anyone see the carcass in transport - our famously stupid one law that gives the lowly coyote any respect at all.
The problem is that deer hunting here amounts to driving around until you see the deer you want to shoot, and you shoot it. If you get caught, you're "coyote hunting". he burden of proof lies with the state and the game wardens just can't get around this. The instance I related above was an incident in which the warden had received a report of road hunters, complete with the vehicle description and tag number. He observed the vehicle for some time from a distance until he felt he had probable cause to make contact and talk to these guys. PC for a game warden in the field has some unique twists to it, according to SCOTUS.
In any event, the wardens need and want to establish some sort of regulation that will bring a stop to the road hunting of deer under the guise of coyote hunting. The "you have to have a deer tag" idea is part of how Nebraska does things, if you want to shoot coyotes with a center fire rifle. If you don't have a deer tag, you have to be using a rimfire or a shotgun.
To my way of thinking, that doesn't address the problem. It just punishes guys like me who want to continue calling coyotes through deer season unimpeded and unrestricted by additional laws.
Instead, IMO, if you have a problem with people shooting from the road, you make THAT against the law. For everything. Period. The only ppl that will be adversely impacted are the violators you are trying to manage.
I foresee three arguments against this proposal, the first being DiYi's point. That's easily handled by including a provision for livestock producers to be able to shoot from the road onto property they own for the purpose of protecting their livestock.
Second, the economic impact of such a regulation, which is always a matter of discussion with the commissioners who always see the bottom line. To me, this is a non-factor. Coyote hunting requires only a general hunting license in Kansas, the same license needed for pheasant, quail, and the like. I would bet that 99.9% of guys shooting at coyotes from the road hunt other stuff and would, thus, already have a hunting license for other game. At the same time, including revocation of hunting provisions as a penalty for violating this regulation might give them pause to consider if shooting from the road at a mangy coyote is worth risking all of their hunting privileges.
Third, the age old argument that those guys shooting coyotes from the road are a critical part of how coyotes numbers are kept down. "Without these guys, coyotes would be everywhere!". Yeah, sure. Fact is, we have a LOT more people trying their hand at calling coyotes today than we did just ten years ago. I would bet that if the coyotes we were trying to call weren't completely freaked out of their minds by November 15 because of road hunting, more coyotes could be taken by callers than have ever been taken by road hunters. When their impact is nominal at best, how many they kill is irrelevant anyway.
Most states do not allow shooting from the road, due to questions of ethics, or more importantly, safety. IMO, shooting at a coyote from the road isn't "safer" than shooting at a deer or turkey, just because it's a coyote.
Thanks for the remarks, both positive and negative welcome. They help me to tweak my arguments and force me to address weaknesses as well.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
|
posted April 13, 2014 04:13 PM
Wyoming is simple. No shooting at anything from a PUBLIC road. Predators can be shot from private roads (private land ranch roads etc). Pretty simple really.
--------------------
Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Duckdog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3842
|
posted April 13, 2014 04:34 PM
Lance,
I've been saying this for years, and it'll probably never happen because it would cost the KDWP (aaaaaand T) money,
But, if firearms deer hunting was abolished on all WIHA lands, the road hunting problem would substantially decrease.
Even if it were just the regular firearms season, it would seriously curtail road hunting.
They didn't mean to, but THEY created this problem. I'm not saying it didn't exist before, but not NEAR the scale it's been since the WIHA program started, and then non-res deer permits allowed.
I've watched it from day one on the lands I hunt and post and help patrol for the land owner in NW Kansas.
Here's the problem, in the years before the WIHA program, a hunter had to have permission on some property to even have a reason to be in an area. Now, all they have to have is a map, an orange hat, and an orange vest.
Kansas is, for the most part, sectioned by roads every mile or two. So, they pick a spot out of the map and head "that direction". Then, they drive the perimeter of said property looking for a likely target. If there isn't one spotted, it's on to the next mapped out spot..., but what if they spot a nice buck inbetween spots? They're already road hunting, do you really think a fence line is going to keep them honest? Uhhhh no.
If they see a coyote inbetween spots...Target of opportunity.
I watch this scenario almost every year. The sad part is, these aren't what you'd call "hardcore poachers", this has become the norm for Kansas firearms deer hunting in the western 2/3 of the state.
I've been circled numerous times, by the same vehicles, on the same morning, while bird hunting...on OUR property!!
I drew a Mulie tag a few years ago and honest to god thought this 5x5 I had in my scope was going to be shot out from under me by the same truck that kept circling the property. (NOT WIHA!)
So, in my opinion, you take away the biggest reason these guys are just driving around "deer hunting", and you'll make major strides at curtailing the road shooting.
(For those not familiar with the WIHA program, or the Walk In Hunting Area, this is private land that the landowner gets paid to open it up to public hunting. The land owner can stipulate certain seasons, and can also pick from a set of dates for it to be open. But, the more limitations they put on it, the less money they get.)
There is no way, that they CAN'T know this is a problem, but...
Money is the root of all evil.
I agree with you...I dislike shooting from a vehicle or road being legal, but you know as well as I do, the dog crews are the ones who'll take the biggest hit with this.
And,...honestly, that doesn't bother me in the least. I have NO issues, NONE, with coursing, or running coyotes with dogs, but I DO have a problem with how a lot of them conduct themselves while doing it. (Driving through OUR CRP, dumping dogs out where I'm hunting,...etc),
Hell!!, it's still legal to chase down a coyote with a truck in Kansas for crying out loud!!!
Again, I agree with you and I wish it was illegal to shoot coyotes from the road. But I also wish it was illegal to chase them up with trucks. But,...I wish it was ALREADY illegal!!
Because, I can just about guarantee you that they'll screw it up if they change it now.
Just look at their current suggestion..."Make coyote hunters buy a deer tag"?...Really??!! And this fixes what??
Money...
Now, to address some of your points...
I would not use the Beau Arndt incidence as any kind of reference. For one, the scum bags that shot him were known poachers and just because they lied about what they were shooting at doesn't help matters. And, it really doesn't matter what they THOUGHT they were shooting at anyway.
My point is, any law isn't going to stop those types.
And, I don't mean to offend, but that's a text book liberal move.
"Never let a good tragedy go to waste". (I know you're not a liberal, I'm just saying that's what THEY'D do)
Again...I agree with you, but I do have a problem trying to get this passes under the guise of "safety". It always seems like that's how our rights get chipped away at. "For the children"...
Can you come up with one circumstance or injury from this hypothetical situation? I've never heard of anyone accidentally getting shot by a road hunter that was ACTUALLY coyote hunting from their truck.
People are shot every year turkey hunting. Should we ban turkey hunting because it's not safe?
Of course that's a hypothetical question, but therein lies the reason I dislike disguising rules with the safety blanket.
Why not sell it under the guise of "sportsmanship"? Or, some other word better than that..(.I can't think of one right now)
NOT ETHICS! Your ethics may be different than mine. I really don't want some politician saying that "Shooting coyotes from the road is unethical", because the next step is "Shooting coyotes is unethical", or "trapping is unethical"...etc.
Just be damned careful with that word...
Just a few things to think about.
Kevin
Posts: 205 | From: Ks | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted April 13, 2014 05:25 PM
Great points, Dog. Thanks. Wording will be of great importance in this. As far as the dog wagon guys, this proposal would have little impact on them. Most all the dog men I know despise hunting coyotes from trucks with guns and I know of none that do it even as an aside. Now, the guys that run coyotes with trucks and use rifles? Yeah, they'd take a hard hit and they are the type of people this is aimed at. I don't see a way out of the safety issue here. To me, it's a matter of ethics and safety. Plain and simple. Since I anticipate a hard sell to anyone on ethics in hunting the lowly coyote where everything is already legal because of a lack of regard for coyotes, I foresee safety while protecting the rights of other hunters who choose to obey the laws of Kansas and fair chase as being the basis of my requests. The question to me is more a matter of how much do I ask for and how do I support my request by making them agree with me.
My goal here is to button up the regs on shooting at anything from the road, including coyotes.
In my area, WIHA is relatively rare and the same patrolling mentality goes on all the same. I've seen convoys of vehicles holding orange=clad deer hunters five and seven trucks long moving from one scorched area to the next soon to be scorched area.
Cal,
Could you clarify for me exactly what a "ranch road" is? We have public roads and our county roads, or country roads are considered public. When you say ranch road, I gather you mean a private two track or field road that the county or township has nothing to do with? If so, then in Kansas, you would be off the public road and legal under this proposed regulation. Although I would support a law outlawing shooting from a vehicle, even on a ranch road, I just see that as overreaching to the extent that you risk them rejecting the whole proposal. If we can just get the shooting from the road issue passed, we would have tackled most of the problem.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
|
posted April 13, 2014 05:42 PM
Correct I think CDog. Any road on private land that is not open to the public and is therefore not maintained by the county or state is a private road. Here, you can't take off on a road just because it's there. If it is not designated as a county or state road it is off limits to public travel. There are some pretty good ranch roads that aren't public domain and millions of miles of two tracks on private that aren't public, again meaning you can't travel them without the landowners permission.
--------------------
Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted April 13, 2014 05:44 PM
Thanks. Same here, but with gridded mile sections, field roads aren't critical to access, if you don't mind walking.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted April 13, 2014 06:22 PM
My guess is; a ranch road is on private property?
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Duckdog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3842
|
posted April 13, 2014 06:54 PM
Again,...I agree with you in principal, but banning shooting from roadways will do nothing to reduce the deer hunters from road hunting.
I'm just trying to think like the "commission" here...
"In that case, we better make all firearms unloaded and cased...ammo in a separate case"...yadda yadda, etc etc.
Do you know of any case at all where someone's safety was jeopardized from someone shooting at a coyote from the road? (Other than that one duche bag's fabrication)
If you're going to use safety as a platform, you probably ought to have some evidence.
The commisions' thoughts..."Wouldn't it be safer if coyote hunters wore blaze orange?"
That's why I say abandon the "safety" platform, and lobby ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
on the fair chase platform.
Your admitted selfish agenda is EXACTLY why I'd like to see the law changed. And, if you're going for " no shooting from public roads", I wish you'd go after "illegal chase with a motor vehicle".
But, honestly,...
None of that is going to address your initial concerns...
--(Except safety, but I'm guessing you'll have to come up with a bunch of "could'ves and might haves to scare them into drinking the safety Kool-aid)
quote:
For example, my local NRO stopped a pickup this season with TX plates. All three men inside were in full hunter orange per regulations during deer season (which it was). All three had big bore rifle (.300 Win Mag), but when confronted with the NRO's inquiry as to what they were hunting from the road, they claimed they were looking for a coyote. Not a thing he could do about them.
Even if there was a new law, he still didn't have anything on them. They were just driving.
--I don't see it helping Wardens make arrests, because they'll still have to witness the shot. A warden can pull over anybody clad in orange out patrolling for deer, but unless they're shooting, they're just in transit from point A to point B.
No chargeable offense there.
quote:
In advance, I know it's not a good thing to restrict hunting in any way. And I'm not trying to do that.
quote:
Now, the guys that run coyotes with trucks and use rifles? Yeah, they'd take a hard hit and they are the type of people this is aimed at.
As much as I despise this type of "hunting", it IS legal and there are big groups of guys that get together every year to "hunt" coyotes this way.
I don't like it, and like I wrote earlier...it should have been changed a long time ago. I'm just saying...be honest.
You ARE trying to take someone else's legal means away from them.
Call Will Horting. IIRC, he grew up around truck runners.
Posts: 205 | From: Ks | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted April 14, 2014 04:26 AM
quote:
My NRO told me this past week that one idea they are considering is that you must have a valid deer tag in your possession to shoot at coyotes during deer season
This is how it is/was in Missouri, when I used to deer hunt there.
I'd purposely buy an extra, non-res. antlerless tag, so that I could do some calling after killing my buck. Was always good for a coyote, or two, so it was worth it!
Was even checked by a MO. Game warden one year, way back on my friend's property. I had already tagged out my buck, and was calling coyotes with my hunter orange on. Valid deer tag in pocket = legit to coyote hunt!
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
booger
TOO BIG TO FAIL
Member # 3602
|
posted April 14, 2014 11:05 AM
Lance,
The Hunter Ed Instructor in me would want to appeal to ethics and safety; however, I don’t know how far you can get because of the issue Mr. Duckdog brings up—money. As you know, in Kansas, it is legal to shoot from the road as long as you have permission to hunt the ground you are shooting on to. Coyotes are simply not respected or held in the same regard as a deer, pheasant or turkey. I think shooting from the road should not be allowed, period.
It is too bad, but I too think of the Beau Arndt incident when I consider going out to call during deer season. I simply value my life too much to be out there calling during the 12 days of craziness that is the Kansas Firearms season.
You have my phone number if you want to give me a shout. Dr. Roger Marshall, one of the commissioners, is my neighbor and on the board of directors here at the bank. He is an avid hunter and landowner himself. If you want, I can give you his phone number and even put in a good word about you and what you are trying to do.
Let me know if I can help.
[ April 14, 2014, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: booger ]
--------------------
If we ever forget we are one Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under--Ronald Reagan
Posts: 911 | From: Bob Dole Country | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted April 14, 2014 03:49 PM
Kevin,
I don't need to talk to anyone about chasing coyotes. if you read my bio on other sites, I'm pretty up front that I cut my teeth chasing coyotes at 3 years old tied to my dad's front seat with a piece of rope. I've chased them with dogs, with rifles, on motorcycles, on horseback, on quads, called them, trapped them, snared them and even sat in wait when nothing else would work until I sniped them from hiding when they were just minding their own business. LOL
quote:
but banning shooting from roadways will do nothing to reduce the deer hunters from road hunting.
In time, it will. The Texas hunters I cited from our local NRO's incident all had valid deer tags. The issue was that they were hunting from the roadway rather than being out in the field. The NRO watched them for some time before deciding to throw the towel in and check them out. No, at that time, he didn't have anything to write them on. But shooting from a vehicle at a deer is illegal. Had he seen them do that, he could have gotten there to where they were, any deer would have been gone, and they could have said that they were shooting at a coyote. Not a deer. And he would have had to prove otherwise. It's something he cannot enforce.
A new regulation like this corrects an enforcement loophole that prevents NRO's from being able to go after guys because they use the claim that they are hunting coyotes as a ruse to continue deliberately violating the law. Close the loop hole.
As to being able to bring evidence, like booger, you take your own life into your hands by calling during deer season because of the lack of basic hunting skills and ethics, coupled with a growing sense of desperation as those twelve days wind down. Moreover, I really don't think it's requisite to bring evidence of a complete failure of the system to effect a minor change. Do I really need to drag a bullet-ridden body, a widow, a fatherless child, or a wheelchair bound paraplegic into a Commission meeting to make this basic point? You said earlier that brining Arndt into the discussion is a bad idea because the shooter in that case was a known poacher. I disagree.
Shooting from the road is an inherently dangerous and irresponsible method of taking coyotes that has already resulted in one death. If the guy was actually shooting at a coyote, or what he thought was a coyote, poacher or not, he was not breaking the law that day.
I cringe at recalling how many coyotes I have called that were within sight of a roadway when responding to my calling over the years, and I cringe at thinking how, given the currently accepted methods of take, many times I might have unwittingly endangered my own life in doing so.
As far as taking away someone else's rights, that's a given. It happens all the time, and IMO, it's valid if there is good reason. Safety is one of them. Any time you manage FOR one thing, you ultimately manages AGAINST every other related thing in the scenario.
Should I go to the commission and say that we are seeing a lot more guys out calling coyotes these days and it's just a matter of time before one of them gets hurt because of a road hunter, and ask them to commit to enacting new policies just as soon as I have a dead body to prove it? Kansas is unique in that I can stand on one road and shoot in any direction and have that bullet cross the next road with lethal velocity in much of the state. Kansas is different from, say, Nebraska, where I have hunted pasture lands that were 8 miles square, yet those states have laws on the books to address this.
Why?
I don't know, so I'm asking for an answer to that. Why?
Do me a favor guys. I'm gonna start a roll call thread to ask you to provide me with your state's regs on shooting coyotes from the road. Just state your state, and answer the questions I post (2).
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
|
posted April 14, 2014 05:49 PM
I would hope that you would try to avoid the law of having to carry a firearm unloaded and cased in a vehicle. I think It's a BS law anywhere. Here you can carry any firearm in or out of a vehicle as you damn well please. Stick one in the chamber if you want. Common sense says you wouldn't, but no law against it here.
--------------------
Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted April 14, 2014 06:37 PM
My goal is to only change the matter of shooting from the road. I disagree with cased gun laws and all that. The wardens are having problems with deer hunters shooting from the road and claiming to be coyote hunters so, IMO, you fix that by making it illegal to shoot from the road, and nothing more. Enforcement problem fixed.
Having said that, I won't do anything without the support of the LE Division of KDWP. This is their project and I only offered to back them as an outsider/ sportsman to demonstrate to the Commissioners that there is support elsewhere rather than just from within the agency. If it appears that I cannot get this objective completed without collateral damage to other rights, I will likely withdraw and regroup.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Duckdog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3842
|
posted April 14, 2014 09:25 PM
I feel like you're debating ME!!
Not sure if you caught it before, but,...
I AGREE WITH YOU!!
You asked for all view points so I'm trying to give you some.
I'll be the first to admit, that I really have no idea how someone goes about what you're trying to do,
But if you have to present yourself, and your case, in front of a commission, the points I mentioned might be of concern.
Just trying to give you some things to think about...
I haven't had time to look it up, but I'm pretty sure you have to have permission to shoot onto a piece of property from the road. So, whether or not a guy says he's coyote hunting, he'd better have permission if a shot was fired.
I'd think that could be wrote up as trespassing???
I don't know, but I'd be willing to bet the duche that shot Beau did not have permission. That would make it illegal if I'm right.???
Again...Just in case you missed it...
I AGREE WITH YOU!!
BUT,... I'll just about guarantee you, what comes out of this,
A ban on shooting from the road,...maybe. (And, that would be great!)
BUT, I'll bet we'll have to have a deer tag to hunt coyotes during deer season. Which, as you've already stated,...is damned near the whole fall and winter.
That's how they'll get their "money".
I think that sucks! Why should I, or anyone else have to buy a deer tag to hunt coyotes? (Hypothetical question)
Real question- What exactly does that even accomplish?
Remember, these are the same people who decided last season that it's now "OK" to deer hunt with ANY centerfire rifle, after having a .243 and bigger restriction forever.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
On second thought,...maybe you should share your "Fallujah" comment with the new "tourism" division of KDWP&T. I can see it now...
Big bold letters on the banners hanging from the bridges on I70...
"WELCOME TO KANSAS SPORTSMAN!!! GO FALLUJAH ON COYOTES!!!"
Lol!!
Posts: 205 | From: Ks | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted April 14, 2014 09:56 PM
I still don't get the requirement to have a deer tag when hunting coyotes?
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted April 15, 2014 03:54 AM
Calm down, DDOg The whole intent here was for me to be able to tweak the argument. You've been very helpful in doing just that, as I do agree with what you say. I just expect their response to be what yours is and this is a way for me to make a practice run.
I don't either, LB. That's why I question whether that will fix the problem for them. Aside from them making money, as dog points out.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Duckdog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3842
|
posted April 15, 2014 09:47 AM
Totally calm here...
Sorry if I came off otherwise...Sometimes it's hard to perceive the other guys' "tone" in a written discussion.
As a matter of fact...I almost said "calm down" to you.
It's all good...
Leonard,
The best I can figure, is they are maybe trying to keep a guy from illegally deer hunting under the guise of a coyote hunter?
Or, they assume we (callers), don't have any self control if a deer happens to walk out during a stand??? (which happens a lot here).
So, they assume we're just going to shoot it, and they didn't get their money??
That's all I can figure????
Posts: 205 | From: Ks | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
booger
TOO BIG TO FAIL
Member # 3602
|
posted April 16, 2014 01:40 PM
Lance,
Just heard from my friend that produced the Beau Arndt video on the KDWPT website regarding this question. He is the retired HE coordinator, and he indicated he made a strong push to ban shooting from the road after this incident.
He indicated it went absolutely nowhere, due to the fact that the law would have to exempt landowners as they own to the middle of the county roads here in Kansas. He is on our side, but thinks it is fruitless.
--------------------
If we ever forget we are one Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under--Ronald Reagan
Posts: 911 | From: Bob Dole Country | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted April 16, 2014 05:08 PM
So, you write the proposal with that provision included. Every law on the books pertaining to wildlife in Kansas and their taking allows for a landowner to take an animal in or out of season on his property when the animal is doing damage. I would not even entertain a proposal that did not acknowledge the rights of a property owner to shoot onto their own property.
Understand that this regulation would not be one that I would anticipate to be enforced with extreme prejudice. To me, it would be like a seatbelt law. It's there and available to the officer to use as a lawful and legitimate reason to make contact with someone he regards to be a violator. I would hope and expect that LEO's would use this regulation, like many regulations, with discretion and enforce it fully when it can produce the most effective results. If a warning would work best, they could give a verbal or written warning. In the case of repeat offenses or an egregious violation with total disregard for the safety of others in the area, bend them over and use this as the first step in breaking it off in their ass.
Let's play "what if". A landowner and his son are out checking cattle to make sure they haven't all been seized and spirited away by armed federal agents under cover of darkness when they observe a pair of coyotes working a young cow and her newborn calf. The rancher steps from his truck, levels his rifle over the hood and shoots one of the coyotes. From down the road, he is observed taking the shot by the game warden who quickly makes contact and determines that the shooter owns the ground onto which he was shooting. No foul. Nothing to see here because the landowner has that right.
An hour later, same game warden rounds a corner and sees a truck a half-mile in front of him in the road. He quickly grabs his binoculars and notes a rifle barrel protruding from the passenger side window. The barrel jumps and moments later, he hears the report of a rifle discharging. The pickup speeds away. Warden follows and stops the truck. He notes out of state or out of county plates. Upon contacting the occupants, they admit to firing their rifle from the truck and are unable to tell him exactly who owns the ground they were shooting across. They say they were hunting coyotes, but the game warden observed the wagging white tails of a small group of deer running away as he passes by where he had first spotted the truck.
Despite further questioning, neither of the vehicle's occupants is willing to sway from the story that they shot at a coyote and the warden has no proof otherwise.
Under current regulations, the warden can only tell them to be more careful and let them go. I'm not sure that shooting onto ground where you have no permission would be considered "trespass" in Kansas, when you do not actually set foot on the property.
Under this proposal, the vehicle's occupants, at the very least, get a ticket for shooting from a public road and their name is forever in the system as a violator.
Will such a proposal, if passed, bring a halt to road hunting? No. As one person I've consulted with told me, it's been illegal to steal and kill other people, but it still happens every day.
The best we could hope to achieve with this proposal/ regulation would be to give the law enforcement guys a legitimate tool to use in combatting what is, to them, a growing problem in deer hunting - road "hunters". Instead of having to just cut these guys loose, they can write them, and prosecute them for doing something that most everyone here agrees is unethical, potentially dangerous if not deadly, and simply ought to be addressed. Kansas appears to be in the stark minority in allowing this, even amongst states that have the most coyote problems and who you would think would be the most interested in encouraging scorched earth coyote hunting.
For you to say that it is futile just makes me all the more hungry to pursue it. It's just how I roll.
Who is the patron saint of lost causes anyway? LOL
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Duckdog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3842
|
posted April 16, 2014 09:09 PM
quote:
Under current regulations, the warden can only tell them to be more careful and let them go. I'm not sure that shooting onto ground where you have no permission would be considered "trespass" in Kansas, when you do not actually set foot on the property.
Whether it's called "trespassing" or not, it's still against the law to shoot into someone else's land (without permission).
So, if it's against the law, it's a violation that can be ticketed.
Lead littering?? Lol!!
I'd call it hunting without permission. Reguardless of where you are at, you're hunting someone else's property illegally if you're shooting game on it without permission.
If you dig into this, I'd sure like to know why it's so hard to enforce.
Posts: 205 | From: Ks | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
