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Author
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Topic: Another interesting read
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 27, 2011 12:46 PM
We need to assemble the panel.
At first blush, I can't see any redeeming issues that might exonerate the Sheriff's Department?
gh/lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
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posted May 27, 2011 01:06 PM
Nice find Rich. UNBELIEVABLE. I only read the first 3 paragraphs before I had to stop. GOT to pissed off to be honest.
The first claim the kid opened fire, then the later admission of the kid DID NOT fire and his weapon was ACTUALLY on safe tells me SOMEONE in the ranks of that SWAT team WAS NOT going to play along with what some were saying.
THIS is going to be UGLY before it is all said and done. THIS one will be uglier than WACO or Ruby Ridge if it becomes NATIONAL news.
YES Leonard assemble the panal of experts we have. I am sure we can do better than GLOCK talk. WE must make sure this young man was not a turd.
For NOW while we await JD's commentary, EVERYONE go out and buy yourself and tape recorder,camera and all the other electronics you can afford.
I will read the whole story twice if need be before I comment anymore. YA never know I might have to apologize.
[ May 27, 2011, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 27, 2011 01:28 PM
Yes, thanks for responding to the Bat Signal.
There are so many inconsistencies in this particular narrative, I am wondering if the Pima County Sheriff's Department has a Minister of Propaganda, like other famous NAZI "outfits". (right Dave?)
Wow, where do we start? How about at the beginning? You know, that part we are not allowed to know?
See, these events are why the police in a free society need to have complete transparency, unlike the Obama Administration's definition of transparency which is not what it sounds like: Transparent.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cayotaytalker
DOES NOT TEACH/SUSPECTED OKIE
Member # 1954
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posted May 27, 2011 01:48 PM
Marijuana should be legal!
Jose Guerena, served two tours of duty in Iraq!
Guerena had no prior criminal record!
The police found nothing illegal in Guerena's home!
Those assholes should not have gunned that kid down in his home like that!
And so what if the kid might have been fucking around with a little dope! It would have cost the state less to have looked the other way.
But now the tax payers will have to raise Guerena's two kids!
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Now thats prime coyote country!
Posts: 403 | From: LasVegas Nevada | Registered: Oct 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 27, 2011 02:26 PM
I don't think we want to jump the gun. I saw nothing in that article that stated there were drugs involved?
Tell ya one thing, those folks that keep a shotgun behind the door might want to reconsider, with SWAT teams ready to blast anything they can determine as a threat.
Scary shit.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 27, 2011 02:32 PM
Reading that left a really bad taste in my mouth. I can understand the possibility of mistakes being made in heated moments, but to keep paramedics from treating the victim FOR AN HOUR UNTIL HE BLED TO DEATH?????
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8231 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted May 27, 2011 02:36 PM
4949 checking in.
I had a Glocktalk thread to post, which had some commentary pro and con, but I don't want to upset the masses here at Huntmasters.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 27, 2011 03:05 PM
49, post it.
I'm interested in your take on this debacle.
I like your clear and concise reasoning based on LEO experience and knowledge.
You remind me of Scott Huber. His posts remind me of the E.F. Hutton commercials.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted May 27, 2011 03:13 PM
Here it is Rich.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1344138
It is actually one of a few threads on this incident. The others were all locked.
I don't have a flavor for this one yet though. There is not enough evidence being released. The affidavits are sealed, and we don't have official testimony from the SWAT team, neighbors, EMS personnel, etc. as of yet. The investigation is still pending.
Edit: My mistake. This thread was also locked.
[ May 27, 2011, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted May 27, 2011 03:31 PM
I actually saw this posted on another board last week when we were debating the open carry deal. Didn't want to side track our conversation at the time.
Acording to the articles I read, Guerera was shot some 60 times, and he never fired a shot(although it was first reported that he did). It was also more than an hour before EMS was allowed in to the scene. No illegal paraphenalia was found. There was a search warrent issued for the residence, but did not name the occupant. They were apperantly searching for stolen property in a theft ring. LE retracted their statement that he fired first, halted all flow of info, and took two weeks to make a statement. Classic case of circling the wagons.
Here is the article.
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crim...tml?mode=story
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted May 27, 2011 04:25 PM
I will catch some flack for this one, but here goes. The Police had a search Warrant. When they entered the house, they meet up with a man who is pointing a gun at them. The Police were within their rights to shoot the man.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted May 27, 2011 04:37 PM
There are a myriad of problems with this situation and LEs total clusterfuck in handling it.......fuckin commies!!!!
BUT......if the dumb shit pointed a gun at officers.......well.........getting shot is probably high on the list of possible outcomes
......getting shot 60 times and then being allowed to bleed out for an hour with no medical atten.......that's how a bunch of fuckin commies make sure the witness says nothing bad about the deal. Dead men don't talk.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted May 27, 2011 04:42 PM
quote:
As the SWAT team forced its way into his home, Guerena, a former Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq, armed himself with his AR-15 rifle and told his wife and son to hide in a closet
Why did he arm himself if he knew SWAT was coming to the door?
Why did he tell his wife and child to hide?
Why?
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 27, 2011 04:51 PM
Good question, 49.
The reporter thought so also.
h quote:
If you're not actually a criminal and you wake up to the sound of armed men breaking into your home, your first thought isn't likely to be that you're being visited by the police. There may also have been something else on Guerena's mind: Last year, two of Vanessa Guerena's relatives were murdered by armed intruders. The intruders also shot the couple's children. What Guerena is alleged to have said -- "I've got something for you; I've gotten something for you guys" -- sounds damning if you assume he knew the men in his home were police, but there's nothing in that sentence indicating Guerena knew he was confronting cops. It also sounds like something a former soldier might shout out to intimidate armed intruders. And let's not forget, the same team of SWAT officers who reported hearing Guerena say those words also reported seeing a muzzle flash from Guerena's gun, which we now know couldn't have happened.
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 27, 2011 04:56 PM
This is the most disturbing
quote:
quote:
Scileppi, who is conducting his own investigation, wouldn't say if he had spoken to neighbors, but did say of the lights and sirens, "What we've found contradicts what they're saying." Epps added, "What I found disturbing is that none of the neighbors would give us their names. These people are terrified of the police, now. Another thing I found strange, they said the police didn't evacuate them until after the shooting." If next-door neighbors didn't hear the sirens or police announcement at the door, it's plausible that Guerena, who was sleeping off the graveyard shift he'd worked the night before, didn't hear them either. Of course, the other possibility here is that the police are lying about the sirens and the announcement.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted May 27, 2011 05:10 PM
quote:
If you're not actually a criminal and you wake up to the sound of armed men breaking into your home, your first thought isn't likely to be that you're being visited by the police. There may also have been something else on Guerena's mind: Last year, two of Vanessa Guerena's relatives were murdered by armed intruders. The intruders also shot the couple's children. What Guerena is alleged to have said -- "I've got something for you; I've gotten something for you guys" -- sounds damning if you assume he knew the men in his home were police, but there's nothing in that sentence indicating Guerena knew he was confronting cops. It also sounds like something a former soldier might shout out to intimidate armed intruders. And let's not forget, the same team of SWAT officers who reported hearing Guerena say those words also reported seeing a muzzle flash from Guerena's gun, which we now know couldn't have happened.
That is certainly a point of contention. Some sources say the wife told him it was police outside.
[ May 27, 2011, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted May 27, 2011 05:27 PM
quote:
When they entered the house, they meet up with a man who is pointing a gun at them. The Police were within their rights to shoot the man
What about the citizen whose house is being broke into? Is he within his right to defend his home and family? It is not clear weather the cops identified themselves. The wife says they didn't and the cops have already falsley stated the occupant fired first. They have sealed all info regarding the warrent.
So the cops lied about who fired first, maybe they lied about identifying themselves. If they didn't id themselves Rich, isn't an occupant of his home allowed to protect his family.
This is where the term 'jack booted thugs' comes to mind. Of course, I prefer 'fuckin' cops'....it just conveys so much more proffesionalism.
And for all you Leo's, why was a knock warrent served on a house that was suspected of having armed occupants. Did they not know of the 4 year old child. Reaks of bad cop work. Of course, that will never be allowed to surface. The boys in blue will circle the wagons.
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted May 27, 2011 05:34 PM
This appears to be a deal that isn't going to end well for either party. It's pretty easy for me to see both sides just from what I've been able to read.
Video has been released that supports the siren (sounded like a car alarm to me), and the fact that SWAT knocked and announced themselves in English and Spanish. I hear car alarms so much that I don't pay much attention unless it's mine. Usually set off by a cat or some unseen force and I usually respond armed. However, if I hear guys beating on my door identifying themselves as LE, my response, while possibly still armed, would be less aggressive.
SWAT did open the door, Guerena was asleep, alerted by his wife. He was encountered at the end of a hallway with AR-15 in hand, safety on. Did he have time to fully assess what was happening, considering he was sleeping at the time? Did he raise the weapon in their direction? Did he make verbal threats? Lots of stuff to process in less than a minute after being woken.
911 tapes reveal that after being shot, Guerena fell or dove to a position so that he was not (completely) visible to the SWAT operators. The situation was then treated as a baricade, which is why medical responders were held back initially. Why it took a SWAT team an hour to secure the scene is another question.
Dead guy on one side, LE's alledged screwups on the other. PCSO is going to do everything in their power to make a 2 tour Marine into a "fucking turd" ( yeah 49, that one still bothers me). The family and their supporters will do all they can to condemn the guys dressed up like soldiers who fired 70+ rounds in just a few seconds. Nobody wins.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted May 27, 2011 05:35 PM
The young man did the RIGHT thing in trying to ID his targets before shooting them. However the swat team boys are trained to KILL at the first sight of an armed person.
The real question in my mind is, who is the son of a bitch that asked for the warrant for that house without knowing what they would find inside. Have we lowered our standards to, someone said he may have some dope.
I thought in the olden days you had to have some evidence of a committed crime to get a judge to sign a warrant. So, did the police lie to the judge? Or, are the judges just rubber stamping everything that crosses their desk because they are too damn lazy to read the shit.
There is way too much of this shit going on to suit me. We (they) need to get rid of some of these friggin unions and fire some of these friggin cops.
Justice in the USA is shaky at best. You can be arrested by a cop for anything he says you did in his presence. You then go before a judge who works for the same employer, with the same agenda, collecting revenue, where is the justice in that.
They are damn lucky it was an insecure kid and not me. I made up my mind long ago if you kick in my door and I don't know who you are, you are fuckin dead!
Yep you guessed it, this kind of shit pisses me off.
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Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
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posted May 27, 2011 05:50 PM
Rich no flak on your comment. LET'S hope the warrant CONTAINS no bogus information to the Judge.
WE both have seen and heard of bogus warrants, because cops LIED about the information. Yet to be determined in this case.
Let's hope this portion of the saga is ALL good at least. THE warrant will be a strong factor one way or another in this case.
At this point if the Sheriff wishes to LOOK transperant in this case, he WOULD call the FBI into this situation and ask them to investigate this incident.
LET the chips fall where they may.
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted May 27, 2011 06:14 PM
quote:
The Police had a search Warrant. When they entered the house, they meet up with a man who is pointing a gun at them. The Police were within their rights to shoot the man.
Here's some flack. Years ago I had a disgruntled ex of I girl I was seeing kick in my front door armed with a .22 belt buckle deringer. Just as the door gave up I came down the hallway with a .44 magnum. Reality quickly set in for the intruder and he put his gun in his pocket and surrendered. When the cops showed up they were behind cover with weapons drawn and trained. I came out with 1 hand raised, the Dirty Harry special in the other at my side. I followed their instructions and didn't get shot. Guess I'm just lucky.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted May 27, 2011 06:23 PM
quote:
yeah 49, that one still bothers me)
Jim your feeling is duly noted. The decedent in this case may have been a turd, and he may have been an angel. We won't know until more information comes out. We might not know anything until the trial, if there is one. You also bring up some very good points.
Generally speaking, last time we had an audio tape to listen to. This time we don't even have that much. There is a lot of speculation going on.
CrossJ, that may have been a bold faced lie and it may have been misinformation. Misinformation does happen, as do lies. We don't know which it is at this point.
Dan, if a bunch of guys in hoods broke my door down, I would be inclined to fire on them myself. The question still remains, did the decedent know they were cops before he pointed a weapon at them?
There are many unanswered questions.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted May 27, 2011 06:23 PM
I'm wondering if maybe the cops could have just waited until the guy left for work, and than pulled him over at the first stop sign, etc. ? Easy access to the house then also.
But wearing all that Mall Ninja clothes or pretending to be seal team 6 could be cool too.
I also don't understand why cops aren't made to wear cameras in this day and age for this type of operations. The SEAL's wear 'em. I know some SWAT already do, I seen it on TV...
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1482 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted May 27, 2011 06:26 PM
quote:
Here's some flack. Years ago I had a disgruntled ex of I girl I was seeing kick in my front door armed with a .22 belt buckle deringer. Just as the door gave up I came down the hallway with a .44 magnum. Reality quickly set in for the intruder and he put his gun in his pocket and surrendered. When the cops showed up they were behind cover with weapons drawn and trained. I came out with 1 hand raised, the Dirty Harry special in the other at my side. I followed their instructions and didn't get shot. Guess I'm just lucky.
No Jim, you weren't lucky you were smart by listening to the responding officers' commands.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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