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Author
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Topic: Shotguns, Reddot sights vs Holo sights???
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MJM
Knows what it's all about
Member # 270
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posted December 29, 2008 11:08 AM
This isn't necessarily a shotgun question, it's all about Red dot Sights vs Holo sights.
So here's the skinny. As mentioned on P-Masters I am building a shotgun specifically for predator hunting. With consideration of the odd angles and aquard positions we sometime find ourselves forsce to shoot predators in a red dot scope was added to the gun. The scope or optic seemed to work well on the occasional target or can or even a few non PC targets, but I knew the REAL test would be on predators. So, picture this if you will. I'm on my much abused ladder, the sun is falling like a hammer directly behind me and after a long dry spell I finally call a coyote. With the coyote in, as it turned out not quite killing position, the shot gun snapps to the shoulder. All seems perfect, the safety comes off, my tow open eyes search for the coytoe in the Optics ?????????? ALL I CAN SEE IS A SEA OF RED!!!!!!!! The falling sun had over powered something inthe scope and most of the field is a sea of red.
I am not pleased with my first Red dot sight experience. So here's my questions.
Is this common?
Is this common on the more expensive Red Dot sights?
If it is a common thing on a Red Dot sight, is it also common on a HOLO Sight, specifically a Bushnell HOLOsight?
Right now I am real clost to pulling the optical sight off and going with the deer sights on the barrel.
[ December 29, 2008, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: MJM ]
Posts: 97 | From: Tucson, Az | Registered: Jan 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 29, 2008 12:47 PM
Yeah, for that specific application, open sights is the answer.
But, there is more to it than that. You would have had a reflection problem with a scope or holograph same as the red dot.
Now that you know that you have a problem with a setting sun while sitting on a ladder with your back to the sun.....don't do that shit!
If you notice the troops, they usually have a rail system on top, on the side and underneath the barrel, with different sighting systems.
I am a little bit interested in dedicating a semi-auto shotgun, (maybe a Benelli?) to that concept and I think the first thing I want is an EOTech sight, and work up from there.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32372 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted December 29, 2008 12:48 PM
It's pretty hard to get the sun directly behind your head so the sun is reflected to your eye. I use a EOTech 512A65 and can tell you it won't happen with it.
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MJM
Knows what it's all about
Member # 270
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posted December 29, 2008 01:07 PM
I'm looking fairly hard at the Bushnell Holosight which is or has many components made by EOTech, but is a couple hundred dollars less. The EOTech is battle ready, but the chance of me going into battle is slim. The Bushnell is still enough money to not want to through it away on a failed product.
It was an odd thing. The reflection wasn't like a sunset reflection, it was like the sun was shinning through the scope and reflecting the red of the lazer ALL over the inside of the scope. More than likely it was a function of the dust on the lenses, but how are you going to hunt without dust in this neck of the woods. I was able to shade the lens with my head enough to get the shot off, but it was seriously distracting and made seeinth the coyote difficult at best.
Posts: 97 | From: Tucson, Az | Registered: Jan 2004
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted December 29, 2008 03:55 PM
For what it's worth;
I put slug sights on my pump, then eventually replaced the front bead with an oversized one.
Cheap, simple, not much to go wrong, and it works well.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8237 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 29, 2008 05:33 PM
I don't know what sight you were using or even what went wrong. I do know after owning 3 or 4 eo-techs and 3 Aimpoints, I have never had any problem like that. Setting up with the sun at your back is what we're supposed to do isn't it?
I have seen the dot on a bad eo-tech bloom into a blur when on high power.
Without bashing the eo-tech or bushnell, heavy recoil might induce problems to them. They lost a contract with the mil due to the batteries losing connection for an instant and of course shutting down the sight.
My Benelli M2 Tactical has the ghost ring sights and a tapped receiver. I may mount an aimpoint and try it but personaly I am almost as accurate and faster with my M1 Benelli with a regular barrel.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted December 29, 2008 08:13 PM
Why not just use a rifle with a low powered scope... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5624 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted December 30, 2008 02:22 AM
"Why not just use a rifle with a low powered scope......"
'Cause when the situation calls for a shotgun, nothing else works quite as well. (Insert happy face)
While I love watching a coyote run in from a half mile out, I also find myself hunting in brush so thick that visability is <45 yards. My kill box will be an opening about 30 to 40 yards around, if I can find an opening. A coyote weaving in thru the brush at a fast lope can do some very impressive footwork at close range when they see the gun being raised. I'm not good enough to regularly make this kind of shot with a rifle........or a shotgun with too tight of a choke.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8237 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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MJM
Knows what it's all about
Member # 270
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posted December 30, 2008 07:41 AM
Why use a shotgun ......
Since I'm a skeet shooter I've probably shot more shot shells than more than most, but when hunting predators I'm more of a rifle guy. With that being said, Kokopelli is 100% correct, then add in the fact that we have "Spcial" weapons areas covering huge very productive predator hunting areas around and more importantly BETWEEN population centers here in Arizona. "Special" weapons mean generally short range critters like bows, rimfires and a shotgun shooting shot..... Basically, I use a shotgun because the law says I must....
What scope am I using? .... It's an inexpensive Tru-Glo Red Dot, it's holding up well, no problems there. I knew when I bought it that I'd be changing it out for something better, this was a test to prove a concept. If I stick with the scope or sight or what ever you's call a Holo type sight, it will be the Bushnell Holosight that stays on the gun. I'd like to go with the more expensive EO-Tech but that's just to much money for me.
[ December 30, 2008, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: MJM ]
Posts: 97 | From: Tucson, Az | Registered: Jan 2004
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 30, 2008 10:22 AM
You know I hate to throw this out here because of all the hate for us "machinegunners" but www.ar15.com has some great deals in the equipment exchange from time to time. I don't reccomend reading some of the garbage on the forums but the EE or classified ads is worth a look.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 30, 2008 11:41 AM
Come on, Tom. It's not "HATE". It's more like kidding, ribbing, ridicule, dislike and occasionally scorn. Hate is not the right word.
Good hunting. LB
PS and to the guy that wrote and suggested that using a machinegun has something to do with penis inadequacy; I say, it's an interesting theory, but doubt there are that many short dicks in the whole country.
edit: and no, I have no information on what's going on in the padded room. How would I know?
edit: Hmmm? pulling a "Leonard", or what? Says site is "disabled".
[ December 30, 2008, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32372 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 30, 2008 01:10 PM
All in fun Leonard, guess I better be more careful though, people will beleive anything. Just look at who ya'll voted in for president.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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MJM
Knows what it's all about
Member # 270
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posted December 30, 2008 01:36 PM
Leonard - I must have been the last one to post on "The padded room". I hit the send button, it loaded just fine, then I clicked on something else and got the same message you did. I thought I'd been banned, but the message just didn't look right for a true banning.
By-the-way - I've spent some time over on ar-15.com it's a decent site, hard to maneuver around on, too much stuff and the search function is useless, but a decent site none-the-less.
Posts: 97 | From: Tucson, Az | Registered: Jan 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 30, 2008 01:50 PM
Yeah, it may be gone, but being worthless, it won't be missed by very many. However, based on a few dropped hints, I think the truly disturbed have created something new and equally repugnant. Apparently, (if so), it is way too exclusive for the unwashed masses? Tickles my don't give a shitter.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32372 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted December 30, 2008 02:34 PM
"I thought I'd been banned"
If I only had the button, ha ha.
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted December 30, 2008 02:45 PM
"edit: Hmmm? pulling a "Leonard", or what? Says site is "disabled"."
I heard like some of the others, it was going to a bigger server/host. Just didn't think it was think it was going to be so soon. Whatever, it's not the 16th round.
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted December 30, 2008 03:16 PM
Originally posted 01/03/08, in this thread;
While I'm not using them on a shotgun, I have some opinions on the subject of EER optics.
In the daylight, and many low light situations a scope will excel, it just plain has a finer POA.
In red-dot sights, quality is everything, in glass, and in projection of the dot(s).
A 5MOA "flare" is almost more harm than good, and not being able to dim the dot enough at night can be problematic too.
Look for a crisp projection on clear window.
I'm not happy with the 2x magnified red-dot at all (Tru-Glo), the optics are extremely poor, the view at edge of the scope is warped, and the magnification doesn't look uniform (getting bigger in the middle).
I looked at the Cabela's multi-dot, when I was down a while back, and liked it, but with the new Mauser the Mosin-Nagant project is on the way back burner.
When I get back to it, I'll be hard pressed not to put the Simons Pro Hunter pistol scope on it, but my 7.62x54R has a lot longer effective range than 50yds.
And;
I never killed anything with either of them, but I can still recognize that the BSA and the Tru-Glo I own are junk.
I handled a pistol at the range the other day, with an Eotech holo, it was really nice, clean glass and a crisp projection, with a very wide field of view.
And yeah, while "waving it around" the dot stays on the POA AND in your view (way more so than a red-dot, which is easily "lost"), so a holosight would be very well suited to shooting at moving targets (or from a less than perfect cheek weld, on a rifle or shotgun).
A buckhorn and a blade might be a cheap alternative, the slug barreled Ithaca Deer Slayer I looked at the other day seemed like it was a lot better sight picture, and more rapid target acquisition, than a single or double bead.
It's hard to aim a shotgun, when they weren't designed to be aimed.
So if you are going to aim one, do so with one designed for it (or altered to do so), eh?
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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MJM
Knows what it's all about
Member # 270
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posted December 30, 2008 07:56 PM
K-K - Nicely writen post.
Posts: 97 | From: Tucson, Az | Registered: Jan 2004
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted December 30, 2008 08:00 PM
I am very curious about the new SpeedBead sight from Burris. It is actually designed specifically for a shotgun.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 30, 2008 08:09 PM
Hey, have you ever used anything different from "de plain"?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32372 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted December 30, 2008 08:41 PM
I have a Ithica 37 feather weight that had the barrel cut down.
I had the gunsmith thread it for a choke tube and also welded a short rib on end of barrel with a bead site. Then i mounted a HiViz sight on it..
Just point it and shoot..
So simple even Gary Cleaver can do it...
[ December 30, 2008, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5624 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted December 31, 2008 06:18 AM
Nope, never have Leonard. I'm pretty sure most of them wouldn't work real well, but where the new Burris one is mounted it may be ok. It is way closer to your eye so may give you a bigger field of view without the perception that you are looking through something. I may have to order one.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted December 31, 2008 06:58 AM
Cal, I've been looking at those too. The thing that has me shying away, is that I had basically the same sight on a different type of mount on a Ruger .22/45. That one was pretty fussy about eye placement. At least compared to one of the holo sights like the Eotech or Bushnell. Accurate as hell though. I was able to routinely knock prairie dogs down at 50 yards with that pistol (off the side view mirror). Also, the one I had was a bit flaky - sometimes it needed to be knocked around a bit to come awake. It was a "Tasco" brand though. But, then, I think they are all made by one company, because they all look basically identical...
Anyway... No experience with a shotgun, myself, let alone a sighting system on one. But, I found a new unfired 870 under the bed, I had forgot I had, and am going to get it setup for just in case I ever want to try a shotgun on a coyote. Leaning real heavy towards the Eotech or Bushnell, m'self.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Joel Hughes
SPECIAL GUEST
Member # 384
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posted December 31, 2008 09:11 AM
I had not heard about the speed bead. Thanks for mentioning it, Cal. It looks interesting and much better than other shotgun sites I have tried before. I had a bushnell holosight on my 10 gauge for about a week, using one of those saddle-type bases. Was too bulky for me.
For those google-challenged:
Specs:
http://www.burrisoptics.com/speedbead.html
Prices:
http://www.swfa.com/c-2178-burris-speed-bead-systems.aspx
Posts: 145 | From: texas | Registered: Aug 2004
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted December 31, 2008 11:06 AM
If either your or Cal tries one, please do let us know how you like it.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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