This is topic Important message regarding AR pistols. in forum Member forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on October 05, 2022, 07:38 AM:
This is an important message to anyone who owns an AR Pistol. Many people have installed braces to aid in shooting these pistols. The Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) will soon put forth a rule that will redefine many AR Pistols as Short Barreled Rifles (SBRs). The ATF is going to have an amnesty period where owners of AR Pistols will have to fill out Form 4999 to determine if your AR pistol can still be classified as a pistol or a SBR. SBRs fall under the National Firearms Act (NFA). NFA items also include fully automatic rifles, suppressors, SBRs, and all other items such as cane guns. If your pistol is categorized as a SBR, the ATF will give you a Tax Stamp which will make your pistol a legal SBR. I don’t know if they will or will not charge the standard $200 fee. Failure to comply with this rule during the amnesty period will result in you becoming a felon. I’m afraid this rule change could make 10,000 AR pistol owners felons overnight if they don’t get this form 4999 filed with the ATF during the amnesty period.
I told a neighbor about this because I know he has such a pistol. His reply was that he filled out the paperwork when he purchased this pistol, and he believed the ATF would contact him. I explained to him that the ATF does not get a copy of the form 4473 for many years. The Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968 forbids the ATF from creating a computerized database. I'm sure they have such a database but they will not be contacting anyone because they would be admitting they have violated the GCA of 1968. The form you fill out stays with the gun store. It is up to us to comply with the law, and we all know how the feds like to cite ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Go to Youtube and search ATF Amnesty AR pistols.
Also go to ATF form 4999 to see the current form which will most likely have further changes.
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on October 05, 2022, 10:02 AM:
Does this rule also apply to a brace put on a Remington TAC-14 or Mossberg Shockwave?
These guns have 14" barrels.
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on October 05, 2022, 03:50 PM:
I honestly don't know at this time. Regarding AR pistols, if the brace is made in such a way so as to permit the pistol to be fired from the shoulder, the pistol will be considered a short barreled rifle. Also, there are other configurations besides AR Pistols such as AKpistols. Look up the ATF form 4999 and look at the questions the ATF is asking. It might give you an idea of what they are looking for. Good Luck.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 06, 2022, 09:58 AM:
What is the application for the AR pistol? Is it parallel to a riot shotgun? Does it have any use in a sporting capacity? Because of the conformation, the accuracy potential is unimpressive, it's not a target gun, in any sense. So, just what is the appeal?
Is it a fantasy, jacking off with it while watching gang bang videos? Is it the first thing you reach for in a home invasion, propped behind the door where you used to keep that sawed off shotgun?
Yeah, they look cool and the brace is almost 100% necessary, if you expect any effectiveness from it at all; you know, as in hitting your target.
Then we have the ATF focus on it was something very dangerous in the wrong hands and by that they mean; the random citizen. And so we have the effort yo neutralize these things they regret approving in the first place and now, doing everything possible to discourage the ownership, much like Thompson machine guns, pre 1934.
I can see a bit of hard on about the concept, it's just a lot cooler running around in your pajamas and barefoot, versus a Mossberg 500 even if it's painted black. And what do they cost? Im guessing just south of $2,000? For that, you could have a Mossberg in every room.
So, go ahead. Clue me in. Just the top 10 or 12 reasons will do.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on October 07, 2022, 06:36 AM:
I never had any interest in an AR or AK pistol. The first time I saw one I thought what a stupid idea. With that said, I have a friend that legally purchased a short barreled AR rifle (SBR) and a legal can. After purchasing it, he complained about the muzzle weight.
After learning that there will be an amnesty period to make these AR Pistols SBRs I became interested in purchasing one. A can doesn't just reduce the decibels but also greatly reduces felt recoil which is why I purchased an AR pistol with a 12.5 in barrel. I will soon purchase a can to compliment it. Once my pistol becomes a SBR, I put a real stock on it.
If I was a multi-millionaire, I would sue the ATF citing the ADA act as a reason why people with severe hearing loss should be able to buy cans legally, quickly and free of a tax stamp to preserve their hearing.
Also, at my last PVCI meeting I learned another member purchased an AR pistol for the same reason I did. He has put a couple of hundred rounds through his and says it shoots good.
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on October 07, 2022, 09:28 AM:
Several years ago I had a KelTec PLR-16 for a short period of time. That thing required ear plugs and muffs to shoot it. Talk about loud! It was more of a play thing to me. I quickly tired of it and sold it.
That form 4999 doesn't address braces on short barrel shotguns but I would guess the ATF will go after them as well.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 07, 2022, 09:56 AM:
I think you did the smart thing in claiming that you sold the gadget. They are getting wise to ko ko and his boating accident alibi. Seriously, it’s a dichotomy, is that the word?
You want the government thinking you got nothing to defend yourself with and on the other hand, bad guys need to respect your ability to defend yourself, a deterrent where bad people otter think twice before home invading your place. Signs in the front yard or a notice next to the door might help. But it could be perceived as a temptation; “he just left for work and he’s well stocked up with quality firearms, all we need to do is break a window!
Get a dog!
Good hunting. El Bee 🐝
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 07, 2022, 10:21 AM:
I'm sticking with the boating accident when I lost all of my firearms.
If you sell them, the Government is going to want to know all kinds of information. Did you make a profit on the sale ?? Did you take a loss ?? Did you file the proper tax forms for profit or loss. Are you a licensed firearms dealer ?? Why ?? Do you have insurance if the buyer commits a crime with a firearm that YOU provided him ?? Are you now or have you ever been a Republican ?? On and on.
So actually, the canoe tipping over in deep water was really a blessing in disguise.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 07, 2022, 03:18 PM:
Well now, ko. Since you appear to be all knowed up on these tricky rules and regulations concerning firearms.
Some of y'all out there, The Peanut Gallery, in particular, might remember that I purchased a series 70 Combat Commander 45ACP in January 1971. I was a little peeved because in those days, around the first of the year, expect a price increase and I'm not sure if the gun I was looking at was $107 last week and now it was $114, but my guesses are pretty darn close without laying my hands on the receipt, which I know where it is in the original box and pretty close to which shelf it's on, after about 51 years, give or take a few odd days.
So, it still burns my ass that my homeowners insurance, State Farm covered the loss by home burglary, New Years Eve 1975. But the assholes discounted my claim 105 because it was used, or some shit? No, it was brand new when I bought it and at the time, the list price was about $125, but they paid me $107, less 10%, or around $97, an I'm not sure because there were 4 other firearms involved in the claim.
But, this gun is the only one I'm talking about because it was the only one eventually recovered....so far, to be optimistic.
Okay, now here's the quandary. State Farm paid me for my loss. Does that mean I should have contacted them and turned over the gun because they paid for it, even though they gipped me. I'm not overly worried, my name is still the registered owner. But is there any way that since they paid me for the loss, that they have an interest in the weapon? IDK?
So, what is the verdict of the Peanut Gallery? Do I just turn myself in? I looked up the value, hard to say because Ive done some work on it but completely stock, about $1500. But like the antique guy at Guns and Ammo is always saying, if it's altered in any way, don't expect the money that an altered piece would bring. This piece was pretty shabby after 10 years in Mexico so the original finish was Nickel plated and I had it hard chromed, plus some machine work and upgraded adjustable sights. It's pretty much one of a kind now, and worth whatever somebody is willing to pay. But, it's damned of you do and damned if you don't because if left original, some dickhead would be telling me; oh, it's worn, about 56%. But now it's customized and in my opinion, it's an upgrade on the original condition. Who knows, they got ya coming or going; right?
Good hunting. El Bee 🐝
[ October 07, 2022, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 07, 2022, 06:08 PM:
I think that I would contact insurance and determine how much of the settlement was for the recovered handgun and reimburse them........... and document everything. Right now, the insurance company is attached to the serial # on that piece. Something that may or may not come back to haunt you or an heir on down the road.
$.02 worth adjusted for inflation.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 07, 2022, 08:08 PM:
Not to argue but consider: the police ran the serial number and I reported it stolen and when these stolen guns are reported to the National database, they actually do stay there forever and in my case it
Must have been 1984, probably October or November because i remember the was just shy of ten years.
So, do you think, pre computerized records, that the insurance company has any recollection? Besides, the motherfuckers canceled me! As I always say; They will never take me alive!
I’m not taking your well reasoned advice. They can kiss my ass! But, thank you anyway!
Good hunting. El Bee 🐝
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 08, 2022, 04:10 AM:
Yeah, I've had issues with State Farm, too.
I could see, in our brave new world run by The New Socialist Order, where an insurance company could claim ownership of a recovered firearm that they had previously made a settlement on. Scary stuff.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on October 08, 2022, 05:15 PM:
I use one quite often.
Have taken lots of hogs and coyotes with one.
The reason I opted for the pistol is because I can travel to other states whereas having an SBR has restriction of travelling to other states without permission. Permission may take an undefined amount of time. AR pistols do not have that restriction.
Even though it is not my first choice for any hunting, it makes a great backup should the primary arm have problems.
Accuracy is 4 to 6 inch groups at 100 yards for my build which is pretty sucky but it is easy to carry while fishing and hogs and coyotes alike hang around water tanks.
Pros and cons with the AR pistol.
Pro:
Fun and easy to build.
Satisfaction in taking hogs with something I put together.
Interchangeable uppers.
Cons:
Accuracy. About PAR with a Ruger Ranch Rifle.
A bit pricey after adding decent accessories.
Bipod is essential.
Collecting brass is a pain.
Not a serious hunting firearm whereas a 7 or 8" bbl revolver can be.
Like I said it's not a first choice to take but I have a lot I haven't used in years.
On a side note, last hog trip I took this year I used an old Marlin Guide gun I hadn't shot in 25+ years.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 08, 2022, 05:26 PM:
Jay, it sounds like you have too many toys!
In the first place, do you notify another state when you travel for the purpose of recreational critter hunting? I would never have thought of that? And, it's a for sure fire method to get a NO for an answer.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 08, 2022, 06:28 PM:
Hey Jay ..............
When you say 'hogs' are you referring to feral pigs rather than javelina???
I'm looking for a reasonable place to bow-hunt pigs.
Thanx !!!!
Edit 4 speling.
[ October 08, 2022, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Kokopelli ]
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on October 08, 2022, 07:25 PM:
Yes to feral pigs.
No to notifying another state but in the case of SBR's notification to AZ and permission would be required.
AR pistols are under attack for arm braces by ATF redefining what constitutes a pistol versus SBR. They want them reclassified to SBR's so they can assess a $200 tax stamp. Many believe it's a backdoor for national gun registry. Won't know what the new rules will be until December. No mentioning of grandfathering existing ones in.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on October 08, 2022, 07:31 PM:
Koko, Bow hunting pigs in Texas should be fairly easy. Don't know what it would cost though thru a guide.
[ October 08, 2022, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 08, 2022, 08:34 PM:
Any recommendations or suggestions ?????
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 09, 2022, 10:22 AM:
Psst! He knows somebody that has a ranch in Texas. I remember meeting him, can't recall his name right now, but he attended the Shadetree ronde in 1999. Nice feller!
I think Jay should get us both an invite for his next trip!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on October 09, 2022, 12:45 PM:
Jay: is the reason you are getting mini14 accuracy is because of the inaccuracies of it being a big heavy pistol which would shoot great off sand bags, or is the pistol itself causing the 4-6 inch groups?
Without putting the man's name on this site, the PVCI member I know that bought an AR pistol for the same reason as myself gave you the member of the year award for successfully fighting the contest hunt ban. He is very happy with his AR pistol. I haven't shot mine yet. I'll wait for the tax stamp before I shoot it.
I have enough shooting to do this year after hardly going to the range since covid started, and Ben Avery went to reservations. I joined the Phoenix Rod and Gun Club for a place to shoot. BTW: does anyone know why they put Rod in many gun club's names when they don't have fishing contests? My opinion is it just sounds good.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on October 09, 2022, 02:31 PM:
PVCI was a good club. Been ages since I've been to a meeting. The contest hunting crap sent me full on political. Total surprise we won. Afterwards I swore I'd never do that again. I think I had a frank discussion with a reporter about any misquoting any interviews. Turned out he was an honest dude.
A short time back PVCI was having the same anti contest issues. Tried coaching them. The winning points from 20 years ago was the lack of anti-predator hunting proponents to provide any type of Environmental Impact Study or Economic Impact Statement. Along with the fact that contest hunts in reality should be addressed by the AZ Gaming Commission and not the AZ Game and Fish. Add to that the anti-hunting crowd could not legally force their wants and desires upon a smaller segment of society when all activities were perfectly legal.
Back then I first started re-thinking my stance on late term abortions. How long could it be extended? 30 years? 40 years?
Leonard could most likely put it in better words. He's my hero when it comes to things I wish I'd said better.
Undoubtedly the accuracy would tighten tremendously if on sandbags or if it could somehow be shouldered making it a decent hunting rig.
Adequate accuracy is different for different circles. I'm happy with 1" group at 100 yards.
For a 10" bbl, I'm happy with 2.5".
Accuracy could be tightened with lots of work I'm not interested in doing. For me everything starts with a good trigger.
[ October 09, 2022, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on October 09, 2022, 02:35 PM:
To answer the question before I got off topic.... Mini 14's are inherently inaccurate without spending big money. General consensus is don't buy a mini. If you just buy an AR you'll be money ahead.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 09, 2022, 03:40 PM:
A Mini 14, or a Mini 30, which I have actually shot more than the Mini 14; but it’s difficult to describe the sensation you get when firing one of those abortions. It just seems to move in different directions in slow motion, and it’s distracting as hell.
As much as I have so little use for the AR platform, if you were to shoot a Mini 14 side by side with an AR15, you would come away from the experience with respect and awe for America’s favorite rifle/and I threw up a little in my mouth while typing that “endorsement”. (because I have no use,at all, for an AR15, with or without direct impingement.
That should give y’all a clue about the utility and usefulness of a Mini14. It’s a fucked up platform, take my advice and don’t buy one. And, they ain’t cheap, either!
However, if the Left succeeds in banning AR15’s, the Mini14 is a good alternative, clickity-click/click and all of it. I’m not really confused, it just sounds like I am. But, I’m not.
Good hunting. El Bee 🐝
[ October 09, 2022, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on October 09, 2022, 04:03 PM:
Jay: Thank You for providing your experience to the club regarding the recent contest ban.
I'm sure you have heard about Eddie Murdoch passing. With that said, Bob Jensen passed a while back too.
PVCI is holding things together despite covid. We can finally do our annual gun raffle again this year. We are now a 501C3. After applying for the 501C3 PVCI wasn't allowed to have large raffles for about the last three years
Arizona Predator Callers are having membership problems to the point they have asked us to help them put on a Javelina boot camp for AZGF.
We were very lucky stopping the attempt by the anti-hunters to ban lion hunting via voter anniative a few years back.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on October 09, 2022, 08:06 PM:
Sad about Eddie and Bob. Both outstanding people.
Fred Cronk's passing really tore me up.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 10, 2022, 09:02 AM:
Wow, I didn't know about Eddie Murdoch. That's too bad, he was a good guy.
I was in Omaha to attend the funeral of an old Army buddy. While there, I met up with Fred Cronk and we had a nice lunch and then had a good long chat back at my hotel room. They don't make 'em like that any more, ya know?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on October 11, 2022, 03:57 PM:
Eddie Murcoch never married but had girlfriends. Eddie was married to hunting. He had a girlfriend named Shelly that came on a club campout with Eddie, and she brought along her son. At the time the little guy was maybe 11-12 years old, and Eddie took him fishing on this camp out. Shelly and Eddie broke up eventually. They remained friends until Shelly died from a drug overdose. Eddie continued to go visit and do father and son type things with this young boy. This young boy grew up and became a big boy that played and maybe still plays on a NFL team as a lineman. I wish I had his name, team name and position, but I barely follow the local Phoenix Cardinals. This football player paid for Eddie's medical care and funeral which was very nice of him, and it shows what type of man Eddie was to take an interest in this young boy. Again, I wish I knew more details but I don't.
edited in:
I made a phone call, and I learned his name was Tyeler Davison. He was drafted by New Orleans in 2015. He played pro until March of 2022. He currently is a member of the practice squad for the Cleveland Browns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyeler_Davison
[ October 11, 2022, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Aznative ]
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on October 11, 2022, 06:32 PM:
Did PVCI do anything special for Bob Jenson?
Quite a few PVCI members gone.
When Blair died I was in Texas for my mother's funeral and couldn't attend Jerry's. Beverly and him had asked me to speak. I sometimes feel I let him down.
When Fred was suffering ALS I used to go over and take him outside to smoke his outbacks. His wife would always get upset. I missed his funeral too.
I didn't find out about Eddie's and Bob's until after the fact.
Short story about Eddie.
He was hunting with Dave Kardos when Dave died. Eddie had to hike out to a main road to flag down help. He was wearing camo and had a shotgun. The law enforcement showed up and since Eddie was black he was immediately scrutinized and possibly even suspect because there was a dead white guy. All turned out okay but I imagine it was a little tense for a moment.
We're getting old guys. Hope someone has something nice to say about us.
[ October 11, 2022, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 12, 2022, 08:20 AM:
Yeah right! Keeps me up at night just thinking about somebody saying something nice about me whenever I bite the bullet. At least it won't be any thing worse than; Damn, that asshole owed me money!
Anyway, if there was ever another black predator hunter besides Eddie Murdock, I never heard of him? And, for sure; HE WAS BLACK! I don't know how much of that was a tan, but he did stand out, a bit. I ran into a black guy up in the X6 zone one year, hunting mule deer. Even that is kinda few and far between, but I like to see it. Most black youngsters think the only way to hold a 9mm is sideways. Good way to get hot brass down the back of your shirt collar.
Good hunting. El Bee
Jerry Blair promised he would send me a Mojave Green skin for a hat band and never did. It's okay, we all forget stuff, and now, I can't remember a damned thing, especially NAMES!
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on October 15, 2022, 09:19 AM:
I contacted another person in the club, and it looks like the club didn't do anything special for Bob or Eddie. I'm sure they put it in the news letter, but someone switched the contact list that lacked my information shortly after Eddie died. I finally received my first newsletter about a month ago.
BTW: Eddie disliked Obama and voted for Trump.
[ October 15, 2022, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Aznative ]
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on October 15, 2022, 05:11 PM:
I haven't received a newsletter in ages. I think it's online only now.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 16, 2022, 08:43 AM:
Talk about miracles? I've been a member of the West End Gun Club for about 20 years. Just this past year I started receiving the News Letter after not receiving it for (what) about X years, ever since I became a senior member and thought that was part of the package?
But actually, I think it could have been because they couldn't talk somebody into the job? I don't think it's because they lost my address because they know where to send the bill for dues.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 17, 2022, 04:02 PM:
What I intended to say is that a CLUB needs an assortment of types of members. Some think they will pump old members for all of their prime spots. Then there are others that see no advantage in freely giving free data and expertise to somebody that will keep going to the well and you cannot do enough for them and when you don't, they will maybe disparage you behind your back so who needs all that. And that attitude is contrary to the motivation for joining a certain clun in the first place.
But, we also need volunteers, people that will take the responsibility of buying awards and patches and pins, etc. We also need people willing to run the website and to do the newsletter. The hotshots don't have time for the volunteering stuff, so it takes all types for a club to function properly.
That's how I got stuck with this website. The guy that built it didn't want the bullshit and the guy that owned it didn't have the time to do what is needed....and that's where I come in as just somebody that didn't like the idea of seeing it die, so here we are, 20 years later and still it's a thankless job, but somebody has to do it, right?
All that's not totally true. I do get some satisfaction in sort of contributing to the fund of knowledge, such as it is.
But, as far as "Mentors" Man! I never had them! Predator hunters are as closed minded as it gets, Do not expect somebody to spill their guts but you can pick up a few nuggets accidentally. If you're lucky.
At this point, if I opened up the membership, it's just more than I can deal with. This is a fucked up program and it was never designed for a lazy person, like me. And, it should be run by a computer nerd; which I ain't. So, if I were to open the doors, new applications, I would spend most of tomorrow moderating and vouching and mainly deleting people that want to sell shit, whether it's survival food or porn or insurance or an endless number of reasons and motivations that has nothing to do with predator hunting. Then like the last handful of legit applications I have vetted and approved, I never heard from them for my trouble.
Spo, technically, it's a no growth situation and it's the same with every message board dealing with similar subject matter. So, take it as it is, a small scale social club and so I focus on politics with like minded individuals, and we can spit on Liberal's shoes.
Take care-good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on October 18, 2022, 06:46 AM:
quote:
....and still it's a thankless job, but somebody has to do it, right?
It's no longer a thankless job because...
THANK YOU, LB! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Seriously, I mean it. I wouldn't run one of these boards if they paid me big bucks.
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on October 18, 2022, 07:59 AM:
LEONARD
YES, Thank you leonard for putting up with all of the BS that goes with this thankless job.
JAY: I recently discovered that PVCI has newsletters on their website: PVCI.ORG. Once a long time ago pre they posted them for a short period of time and quit. I went to pvci.org and could only find 1 and 2 year old newsletters. Today they are up to date.
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