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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 06, 2019, 06:00 PM:
Having just kinda wrapped up that post about the black youth running away from the LEO and whether it was a "shoot" situation or not, something happened here last night and it's one of those things that make me wonder, "What if...?"
As you recall, I've previously stated that I try to take every opportunity I can when I see or read of a situation in which a gun-related crime is committed and put myself into the scenario as a way of working my way through finding out what I would do if I found myself in that exact situation. One of the values of doing this is to learn to deal with what they call "normalcy bias", a reaction you have when you see something that is so shocking and unbelievable that your first reaction is that what you're seeing cannot really be what it looks to be. That moment of hesitation in wrapping your head around what's going on around you can, and often does, turn out badly for you.
So, here's what happened last night. Right about dinner time. A convenience store in Salina, KS, 30 miles from where I live, and a store I go to pretty regularly (booger's been there probably), finds someone sitting outside in their new blue Jeep when a 24 y/o male walks up, sticks a gun in the driver's face and carjacks him.
Jeep roars out of the parking lot and, moments later, is spotted by a PD unit who pulls up behind the Jeep at a stoplight. Carjacker puts the Jeep in reverse and roars backwards into the PD SUV, hitting and disabling it. Jeep speeds off.
Very quickly, additional units locate the Jeep and a high-speed chase ensues reaching speeds of over 100 mph. The carjacker is taking random shots with his handgun at the pursuing LEO's and ends up running off the road and disabling his Jeep, then exits the vehicle and starts shooting at a PD officer and a Sheriff's Deputy. The Sheriff's Deputy's unit take a round through the windshield and glass fragments strike and injure the Deputy. The PD Officer and Deputy return fire, striking and wounding the car jacker, hitting him in the thigh. He turns into a pussy, gives up and is taken into custody.
Now, as I said, we shop in that very neighborhood every two weeks. Not unusual for me to pull into that convenience store to grab a soda or what not. If I'm there shopping (every 2 weeks like clockwork), I usually have my Walthers PPX 9mm on my hip. This is exactly the situation where I ask myself, "What would I do?" if I'd been there last night either sitting in the car waiting for Lisa to come out, or standing at the counter waiting in the checkout line?
I guess a good place to start would be to ask what I am required to do, and the answer to that question is, "nothing". I have no legal obligation as a civilian to intervene.
So, the next thing I have to consider is what am I willing to do? If it was the wife and me, and we were both in the car, I guess I'd put as much distance between me and the shooter as I could by backing the hell up or driving like hell to a place where I could further observe while we called 911.
But, and we're playing "What if...?", what if this is all going down right next to you in the next parking spot? This is why "what if?" is important, because now you get to go thru as many different scenarios as you can imagine, the most disturbing of which might be what if the car jacker's first choice goes bad and he has to look at curtain number 2, and you're it. Again, what do you do? Lock the doors, hit reverse, put distance between you and the shooter as you back up and try to get your sidearm out? Surrender the car to him and don't reveal that you're armed and as soon as he's looking the other way, draw? Don't draw?
Or, you're sitting in the car alone. Your significant other is inside. All this is going down in the parking lot. You see the jacking in process.
Intervene with your CCW gun?
Take a defensive posture since all they've done is shown the weapon but not fired it? Can you take the chance? Let them jack the Jeep and be ready to follow them while on the phone with 911?
What if they do discharge their gun? Someone is hurt or worse? Engage and keep the shooter there by essentially making yourself a target or let him take the Jeep and leave so at least that scene is now safe, and follow? Or not follow?
Lots of things to consider and you only have seconds to think, prioritize, decide.
Everytime I play "what if", I always end up with the same answer, and it's the one I first gave my son when we talked about an active shooter in a grocery store or other public building. If my wife or family is there, the answer is simple. Place myself between the shooter and them and get them the hell out of the area. My primary objective is to protect my wife and kids - the people closest to me, and the rest of you are on your own. There are certain very real risks in engaging a shooter when the Police arrive and they can't really tell who the good guys are, and who isn't.
I guess in the scenario that happened last night, my goal would be to get the hell out of there by whatever means possible. If the guy isn't aiming at me, we're running/driving for cover. If he is, or likely could be very soon, I'll pray fast and hope I get a clear shot, only as a very last resort. It's self-defense, not search and destroy. Not my job.
In the parking lot, I'll be trying to put distance between us as long as I have Lisa with me, otherwise things get complicated because there's no way I'm rolling out and leaving her in harm's way. Fly by the seat of your pants, right after you shit them.
I guess the point of this is to show just how quickly for those folks last night, a completely benign evening turned into a major shit show in a matter of seconds, and how quickly something like that can happen to any of us in the most tranquil and common of places and times.
I can say that my training in Fire and EMS, and LEO'ing to some extent is stubborn enough that I always, as a matter of practice, try my best to avoid pulling up to an intersection, a stoplight or into a parking lot and getting boxed in by other cars where you don't have an escape route if needed. Situational awareness keeps the fuckery fairy from shitting on your day if you're smart enough to pay attention.
So, since we like to second-guess cops and Monday morning QB shit shows like went down in Salina last night, imagine you're sitting at the Quicky Mart and some snowflake with a Glock decides to jack the car next to you.
WDYD? I anticipate that there will be stark differences between people based upon your rights in your state.
Posted by booger (Member # 3602) on February 07, 2019, 05:56 AM:
Lance,
That is funny you bring this up...we were just in Salina Sunday. That is a C-Store we go by and stop at all the time.
Was talking with my better half about that same thing.
Even if I was carrying and the guy sticks a gun in my face, he can have anything I have as long as I can get my wife and I out of there safely.
I think we all know that the odds of drawing your gun against someone that already has theirs out is a fool's choice.
If I saw it going down, I would dial 911 for the cavalry.
The car-jacker is just lucky that he is still alive...
[ February 07, 2019, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: booger ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on February 07, 2019, 06:12 AM:
To repeat (verbatim) the famous words of Mike Tyson:
"everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face"
Training & prior planning notwithstanding, we can't truly know how we might react, until actually being immersed in truly life threatening situation...
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on February 07, 2019, 06:37 AM:
My plan is to mind my own business until my life or a loved one is threatened ! Then look out your are about to die ! If a leo is being beat by some thugs and I can help I will !
But to pull my weapon and shoot probably not !
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 07, 2019, 08:03 AM:
Yeah, who knows? Depends. I remember that famous hostage situation in Texas, I think it was in a McDonald's where the perp had 30 people and this woman had left her handgun in her trunk because it was a gun free zone. She went on to be a congresswoman, I think? And, her parents were killed in the restaurant. So, she has had a lot of time to think about what she did and could have done and didn't do.
That's a little different than a sudden confrontation. I suppose everybody that has the means, will at one time or another will think about the situation and wonder what they would have done, until they are hit in the face, of course. Of course, I can remember a couple times that I was punched in the face and it didn't turn out so good for the other chap. That's one of those times when you see red and there's no thinking involved.
But, damned right! I have thought about the intervention thing plenty times. And, when you think about the consequences, I do not know if I would help, or not? That's a whole lot different than if it was me with a gun barrel stuck up my nose. Some of these guys are very good with the pointing. but when it comes to pulling the trigger, maybe they will and maybe they won't?
All I know is, better to be caught with it, than without it.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 07, 2019, 06:05 PM:
Tim, I must not have a current number for you. Met Petskas at Russell a coupla weeks ago to sell coyotes and tried to get in touch but no reply. Met them at some cafe that starts with an "M" right north of I70. 18 coyotes, 28 coons and 2 cats, $990.
As to the OP, I guess part of the reason I posted this is to give everyone a chance to consider what they'd do. Actually walking through different scenarios and visualizing what you would or would not do can be very helpful if or when you're ever unfortunate to find yourself in that situation. Spent countless hours over the years in EMS and FD learning and practicing skills that I hoped I'd never use, and can tell you that when they became real life, it was a lot easier to just slide into the right thing to do. The only reasonable thing to do in 99% of situations is to retreat if at all possible, so a great way to visualize this is to take a moment in every store, restaurant, etc.. to identify your routes, best places to sit, worst places to sit, and the like.
Having been doing this, Saturday afternoon I camped out at a Wendy's waiting for a buddy I was meeting to catch up. I picked a spot in the corner - one of the few tables with actual walls, not windows, around me. He got there and we'd been talking about twenty minutes when two plus-sized women across the room suddenly got into a very loud verbal confrontation. The husband of one is just standing there pie-eyed and I'm thinking to myself, "here we go." My buddy stood, I stepped away from my seat and took none step toward them. The more aggressive of the two turned and looked at us for a second and that was the end of it. No plans of breaking up a cat fight, but I'd mentally measured the distance to three different exits and identified who I was going over or through to get through them. LOL
[ February 07, 2019, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on February 10, 2019, 03:24 PM:
Shoot the Motherfucker
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on February 13, 2019, 10:28 AM:
I think you guys are correct in your responses. You, not being active law enforcement, have no duty to respond. Do what you have to do to keep your loved ones safe.
On the other hand, we can intervene with force in order to save another life.
I myself would be obligated to respond in some sort of manner. Even when I retire later this year when I will no longer have a sworn duty to respond, I will probably still be thinking like a police officer and act accordingly.
But I agree that keeping your families safe is the main concern.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on February 13, 2019, 02:13 PM:
Sworn obligations aside, there are some people who possess the 'sheepdog' mentality, and have that innate predisposition to protect those in distress. Watch the beginning of the movie 'Lone Survivor', it describes perfectly...
That stated, ya sure don't hafta be a Navy Seal to have that mindset. Nor, does a badge automatically make you a 'sheepdog', by default. Ya never really never know, until ya know...and ya just might surprise yourself. Whether it be running toward danger, or away from it...your natural instinct will show itself before you even have time to 'think' about it. And if you're doing much thinking, you ain't no sheepdog...
[ February 13, 2019, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on February 13, 2019, 02:36 PM:
Each situation deserves its own response if someone is stealing my car let them go that is what insurance is for the court cost would crush me !
If someone's life is in danger all bets are off
Fred there is thinking involved but it is done in an instant ! If I feel I can save a life , I will ! But in doing so may take one .
[ February 13, 2019, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on February 13, 2019, 03:41 PM:
That's true Fred....you don't necessarily have to wear a uniform to think or act like a sheepdog.
Also agree with Paul, each situation is different and may necessitate a different type of response.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 13, 2019, 05:44 PM:
Nick, I'm glad you get to retire this year. Good for you !!
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 13, 2019, 07:35 PM:
Speaking of retired cops; …………………. Whatever happened to that nice Mr. Del Gue feller ??????
He doesn't call & never writes.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 14, 2019, 09:44 AM:
Yeah, whatever happened? Didn't he move to Montana or North Dakota? From Florida, that's quite a culture shock, maybe it did him in?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 14, 2019, 07:01 PM:
Good points, Paul. Hell, I wish someone would steal my truck. My car, too, for that matter.
One scenario that trips me up is what I might do if I see someone pointing a gun at someone else. Do you intervene and hope the guy drops the gun and the situation is over once the cops come and haul him off? If so, you've just addeed at leaast one more potential victim to the scenario - you or any other(s) bystanders.
Or, do you stay in the background and hope the situation resolves itself without anyone else getting hurt, the gunman leaves and you offer up your statement as a witness? Take the position that I don't jump in unless and until this jackwagon actually crosses the line? At that point, someone's been hurt or killed but no one will question your involvement.
Those are the types of "what ifs" I think need to be pre-planned if a guy is going to carry. Maybe I just overthink it. Nothing's ever easy.(shrugs)
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on February 16, 2019, 02:36 PM:
quote:
Nick, I'm glad you get to retire this year. Good for you !!
Thanks Dave! Will be towards the end of the year.
Not sure what happened to Del. I haven't heard from him in a while.
CDog, in your last scenario I think (for me) it would depend on who the gun was being pointed at. Gang banger vs. gang banger I might handle differently than a thug pointing a gun at a soccer mom. All depends..
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 16, 2019, 05:22 PM:
I haven't thought it through completely. I'm just concerned with my personal safety, I'd have to think long and hard before intervening into somebody else's situation. I always think, (with apologies to 49) that when I'm waving a gun around and the cops show up, they are going to shoot me instead of the bad guy!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 16, 2019, 06:43 PM:
Whether your own safety or that of bystanders, here's an interesting FBI report Quinton Wagoner shared on Facebook.
https://www.concealedcarry.com/news/armed-citizens-are-successful-95-of-the-time-at-active-shooter-events-fbi/
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on February 17, 2019, 02:38 AM:
Good info Lance. I know the stat was high but I didn't know it was that high. Why we should always carry...
Leonard...I have that same concern while responding to an incident off duty.
[ February 17, 2019, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on February 17, 2019, 04:15 AM:
Off topic a bit but 49 we were stranded a few days recently due to weather and while roaming through Youtube started watching 'police chases' and 'shootings'.Maybe a 100 or so.My god do I live a sheltered life out here in the boonies.Just have to say you guys have one tough,brutal F ing occupation.
Lately the phrase 'thanks for your service' is in vogue and perhaps overused at times but by god I'll extend to you guys for damn sure.Thanks!
There's a lot of fucking idiots and deranged people out there that ought to be shot.The risks and shit you guys take daily are understood by very few I think.Just the thought of walking up to a pulled over vehicle,for instance,would make me shake after watching this crap.
Yes yes there certainly are bad apples but they are in every occupation.
Enjoy your retirement man!
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 17, 2019, 04:47 AM:
Yes, Ditto what he said. ^
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on February 17, 2019, 05:11 AM:
I don't watch much TV but when I do its live PD cam and the first 48 hats off to you brave bastards. Everything from grown ups acting like babies to cold blooded killers on live PD cam and the detectives on first 48 are fascinating as the unravel the liars that are quite believable.
Truly Thanks for your Service!
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on February 17, 2019, 01:34 PM:
DiYi, Koko, and Paul....I appreciate the kind words..
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 17, 2019, 05:03 PM:
ko ko asks about Del Gue?
Anybody pick up on the name of the character in Jeremiah Johnson? The bald dude buried in the sand, another mountain man buddy, his name was Del Gue? Played by Stefan Gierasch (1926–2014)
So, I think probably this was our friends screen name, I have no idea what his actual name is/was? A little trivia.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on February 18, 2019, 04:29 AM:
Leonard, if you recall a video Del posted of himself a long while back, he is bald like the Del Gue character.
I used to have his email address. I looked for it but can't find it.
[ February 18, 2019, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 19, 2019, 03:55 PM:
Was this you 49'r ?
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/good-news/police-officer-leaves-pregnant-waitress-dollar100-tip-along-with-lovely-message-written-on-check/ar-BBTLL3B?ocid=ientp
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on February 22, 2019, 02:08 PM:
That was a really nice gesture by that officer Dave. But it wasn't me!
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 24, 2019, 10:22 AM:
Just to show you how carrying becomes a way of life and not at all unusual. Friday, after work, I took my wife to an urgent care clinic for a bad sinus infections. We get a prescription and so we run to the nearby WalMart pharmacy. As we're walking toward the front doors, what appears to be a mentally unstable man is raising hell from an enclosed bus waiting bench. My wife asks me, "Are you loaded?". First reaction for her. I look down at my letter carrier's uniform and say, "Oh hell no". About then only time I wouldn't be.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 24, 2019, 05:21 PM:
quote:
enclosed bus waiting bench.
I did not know there was such a thing?
Good hunting. ElBee
PS But I did notice that up in Seattle, (The Suicide Capital) due to the persistent rain, the bus benches had a roof over them.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 27, 2019, 06:06 PM:
I sometimes forget you're in California where the only kind of weather you have is "nice". LOL
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 27, 2019, 07:13 PM:
Yeah, but do they still have 'Smog Alerts' ??
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 27, 2019, 08:02 PM:
Ha Ha ko ko!
You know my brother is in Olympia? I hate to admit this but he’s a fucking Liberal. Okay, maybe a moderate, but definitely not conservative.
Anyway, up there in what he calls God’s Country, they have NO BURN DAYS! This is when they have an inversion layer and all their “Greenie” wood burning stoves are forbidden. 🚫
It’s not automotive exhaust, but it’s just as dangerous to breathe it.
Of course, you knew I had to squeeze this in: it’s also the Suicide Capital of the US. My control freak sister in law, that requires my brother to disassemble his guns, is on sunshine ☀️ therapy. Those broad spectrum lamps that simulate sunlight.
But, yes, technically they don’t have “Smog Alerts”.
Good hunting. El Bee 🐝
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on February 28, 2019, 06:04 AM:
When I lived in the valley of the Sun they would have no burn days and I would have a fire in the back yard each nite fuk em ! cant tell a free man what to do !
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 28, 2019, 06:44 AM:
God's Country ????
No ………. It's a God forsaken corner of Hell that's too wet to burn !!!
The condition is an actual medical one called S.A.D. Seasonaly Affected Disorder caused by lack of sunshine. Easily cured ……… by moving to Arizona.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 28, 2019, 07:36 AM:
....and my brother will be allowed to reassemble his modest little collection?
I guess it's worth a shot?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on February 28, 2019, 06:08 PM:
Lance, back before LEOSA I took a trip to Arizona..left my off duty weapon home due to legal restrictions.
I felt naked without it.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on March 01, 2019, 01:44 AM:
LIVE IN AZ. I NEVER LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT ! EVEN IN MY OWN YARD ! I REFUSE TO BE A VICTIM !
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on March 01, 2019, 06:34 AM:
Hey Paul;
Did it feel kinda weird the first couple of times that you walked into a bank with a gun and nobody even gave you a second look ?????
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 01, 2019, 07:38 AM:
Yeah but. I can't understand, or figure out what sort of "legal" problem would prevent 49 from traveling to Arizona from commie New Jersey? It's bad enough the way they restrict the citizens of their own state but to restrict the lawful activities of their citizens when in another state seems like way overboard outrageous?
Doesn't the Second Amendment apply in New Jersey? Shit, I should talk! Get me the fuck out of this state, PLEASE!
Good hunting. El Bee
PS I notice, in regards to that thread on the "weather channel" (crap 2.0) concerning the arrival, or not, of spring. Within the last week, two for sale signs have appeared on lawns on both sides of me within 2 or 3 houses. What the fuck am I waiting for? Spring is here! Pull the trigger, wimp!
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