This is topic Another Ruby Ridge, another Waco? in forum Member forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 27, 2016, 05:59 AM:
I don't like the looks of this deal. Government too in a hurry to force compliance.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/27/oregon-militia-leader-ammon-bundy-7-others-arrested-after-gunfight-kills-1.html?intcmp=hpbt1
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on January 27, 2016, 08:44 AM:
Typical of the MSM to call it a "shootout" when witnesses say the man had his hands in the air, was unarmed and cooperating. This was a government sponsored execution. Amazing that they killed the spokesperson for the group, isn't it.
Most of what you read is a lie. Burns is a conservative area with some liberals scattered about sucking on the public tit. Most supported the protesters.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 27, 2016, 09:00 AM:
Crooked bastards......
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 27, 2016, 09:16 AM:
I'm not saying I'm for or against them.
But, they were quietly gaining momentum. Despite what the media reports, surprise ? I didn't think the feds would let em get to John Day, sure enough they didn't.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 27, 2016, 10:12 AM:
Hmmm
http://www.infowars.com/eyewitness-oregon-militiaman-murdered-by-cops-he-had-his-hands-in-the-air/
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on January 27, 2016, 02:01 PM:
I would love to have the inside information on this standoff. Ranchers wouldn't go and protest on behalf of another rancher just because they felt like it. The news networks report it as Dwight Hammond and his son, Steve Hammond set fire to Federal land. I believe there was a good reason to set it on fire such as to create a fire break. However, the news media never gives us the full story. I'm all ears if anyone has some inside information to this tragedy.
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on January 27, 2016, 04:50 PM:
If we keep writing like this, we will all be sent to a re-education center to learn "White Lives Don't Matter"
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on January 27, 2016, 04:53 PM:
I have a buddy that I talk with occasionally that lives in Hines, which is a stones-throw from Burns. He is about as conservative and gun-totin' as they come.
He wanted them gone (the protesters) mainly due to the way they screwed up daily life in the community. He said the common description of the protesters was a bunch of failed ranchers who wanted to blame somebody for their problems.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 29, 2016, 05:12 AM:
Yeah, well in any case, did this occupation amount to a deadly shooting?
I just watched the released video by the FBI that has a chopper view of the white truck being stopped and after 3-5 minutes takes off, but there is another roadblock some distance down the road.
He swerves to the left, plows into deep snow and exits the vehicle. It does look like he has his hands in the air, but (as is common in these situations) he appears to reach inside his jacket.
Boom, that's all it takes! That will teach these scofflaws to obey law enforcement.
I don't fully understand the reasons for these people with nothing better to do, to join in a occupy protest, but they didn't shoot anybody at Wall Street? Of course, here we had legit citizens, similar to any of us on this Board. We may or may not have firearms in our possession and that "fact" always enters into the reactionary thinking of the cops on the ground, a fair percentage of whom have an itchy trigger finger under the best circumstances. Make ANY nervous gesture, and these hi testosterone males are going to shoot your ass; count on it!
I am always thinking that L.E. works for me, I do not thank an officer for a traffic ticket, as some people do, if I might deserve it or not. But, I'm just ornery enough that I can see myself doing things that would be considered uncooperative by the fanboys.
So, some types of people get away with this hands up don't shoot bullshit and others get shot when they reach for a hankie or their spectacles. There is a fear by some element against normal taxpayers where they do not brook any noncompliance. If a guy looks like he has never been in jail, a taxpaying citizen, they naturally assume he might be armed and a fair percentage of cops take no chances, even though there are (in this case) 8 or 10 armed with M4's, and the poor fucker is way outclassed, they still lean on that "reaching" alibi and blow him up. Will this be a Ferguson? Don't be silly, even the locals claim they want the protesters to leave town. Oregon is as blue and liberal as it gets out west, so there's that.
I don't know if I'm disgusted or what, but I would be kidding myself if I thought we would ever get to the truth of the whole situation.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: http://video.foxnews.com/v/4727157766001/fbi-rele ases-video-of-fatal-shooting-of-oregon-occupier/?intcmp=hplnws#sp=show-clips
[ January 29, 2016, 05:17 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 29, 2016, 05:28 AM:
I have to ask what would happen if I took over any building with a firearm for whatever reason? Would I be granted a couple of weeks to tell my story? Then what would happen if I reached inside my coat when officers with guns trained on me were telling me to get my hands up?
Does anyone really feel like LE or big brother is out to get us? As 49 says, "play stupid games, win stupid prizes..."
These guys are no more protesting injustices than the black lives matter crowd is. They are simply wanting our govt land for themselves. And if I were faced with a guy reaching into his coat while I had my gun on him, I'd shoot him too and so would y'all.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on January 29, 2016, 07:14 AM:
I think Lavoy Finicum got exactly what he wanted and planned on doing. He had said he would not spend any time in a "concrete box" was always packing in all the videos. Nothing wrong with carrying a weapon, just that any law enforcement guy is gonna know he is always armed.
He takes off from the first stop, tries to go around the second and almost hit a guy. He jumps out of the vehicle immediately with his hands up, but just about as quick drops his hands and is reaching for something either in his jacket pocket or around his waist. He picked one helluva bad time to answer his cell phone, grab his wallet, or reach for his glasses...
I think Finicum wanted to be a martyr for the group and figured this was the chance to make a stand or else he was going to be arrested and spend some time in a concrete box.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 29, 2016, 10:05 AM:
Your take is suicide by cop, after first fleeing a traffic stop? Seems like the cops had plenty of time to see what he was going to do? I agree, it starts with a stupid game; he's never going to outrun a chopper.
The cop he almost hit had a lot of time to see him coming, so the fact that he was where he was is a little stupid, as well.
And, you think all that posse had read the drama on his facebook page about not being put in a concrete box. And, therefore knew it was going to be a killin', him, or the whole bunch of us with the tactical and the body armor, hiding behind the vehicles.
Geeze, I'd cut the fucker five seconds of slack before mowing him down. Considering, if he was black, he wouldn't have been shot, at all. Okay, I take that back, but there are escalating degrees of stupid before it gets lethal. In my book.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 29, 2016, 10:19 AM:
There was enough stupid to justify killing them once they armed themselves and took over the govt building.
arming yourself has consequences, you better be able to accept them.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 29, 2016, 11:59 AM:
Rumor has it they were scheduled to be @ this meeting last night in nearby Ontario Ore.
http://www.argusobserver.com/news/we-are-the-militia/article_b7075e2a-c6 b0-11e5-b0d8-6b74bb9b22db.html
[ January 29, 2016, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on January 29, 2016, 01:15 PM:
I find it interesting that the video contains no sound. Word is that Finicum was shot and was clutching the wound making it look like he was reaching for a gun.
The only way we'll see the truth is by viewing a camera shot form one of the vehicles with sound. The entire issue hangs on whether the cop shot as a response to Finicum reaching in his waistband or he was shot before.
A couple of years ago I and a friend were doing some calling over near Burns. The ground had frozen but then started to thaw making the side roads treacherous. We started home and saw a trooper drive right into a snow bank so we strapped him up and pulled him out. I pray that wasn't the guy who pulled the trigger. And from now on when it comes to the Oregon State Police I'm going to eave them where I find them. I've seen them pull some of the most egregious shit imaginal. Mostly anxious to write someone up than help them out of a fix.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on January 29, 2016, 02:36 PM:
At the 6 minute mark he is can be seen reaching into his coat. The narrator says he had a 9mm on him.
As far as his intentions (suicide by cop or fight) we will never know. One thing I do firmly believe is that if he would have kept his hands in the air he would be alive today.
The video is just one perspective from above. The state troopers on the ground had a better view than we did.
Something to consider..
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on January 29, 2016, 06:18 PM:
From what I saw in the video, I can understand the cops thinking he was reaching for a gun.
Isn't it amazing how fast this video was released. Too bad the "Bad shoots" aren't released this fast.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 29, 2016, 08:58 PM:
I'm pretty neutral on this deal. Still wondering ?
I had to ask myself how much effort it took to "take over" these gov't bldg.'s ?
I wonder if anyone was even there ? Haven't ever set foot in the place. Driven by a few times, never sparked my interest ?
I will tell ya, it's pretty damn remote. Maybe more so than some might imagine. With (local) school and gov't operations being shut down for awhile. You would think it's right next door to Burns. Not.. (edit) BTW Burns-Hines has a population of about 5k. Harney county is about 10k. I know Harney county is larger than several states back east.
The media hype about shit really-really make's a guy wonder. If the media walked away we probably wouldn't be here. Then again the Bundy group apparently used them also.
[ January 29, 2016, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 30, 2016, 05:24 AM:
Okay, everybody has a different opinion, but reflect for a moment on the original chickenshit vendetta by the Feds. With that in mind, and the methods used by "authorities" when challenged, I personally see no great leap from a simple compliance exercise, to "we gonna teach these scofflaws about authority".
Then, what actual harm was done by the occupation? Remember the restraint on Wall Street when they were shitting on the sidewalk? I'm a little hazy, but was not the plan to leave them be, until they got tired of "occupying"? But, here, we have the Buzzword GUNS ! There's nowhere a cop that does not see a situation that needs enforcement when there is a possibility that they may be armed.
What would be the problem with a plan to leave these guys until they got tired and went home?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 30, 2016, 05:56 AM:
I thought the same thing Leonard. What were they really hurting. I definitely think they pick and choose what to push and what to let go. Occupy Wallstreet is a great example. As is letting the Blacks destroy and loot there Neighborhood destroying and burning Cop cars and such. But a few armed Cowboys occupying a refuge in the middle of no where. They must be stopped and right now. Doesn't make much sense.And its seems like it is always when we have a Democrat in the White House when these things happen.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 30, 2016, 06:00 AM:
EXACTLY !
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 30, 2016, 07:33 AM:
As far as these guys dividing the town-county ect..People not being able to work, kids can't go to school on & on.
It seems to me the gov't is the ones who did that. Who really is the problem here ?
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on January 30, 2016, 08:03 AM:
As I see it the main problem here is that this is happening in Oregon. They don't call it the Left Coast for nothing.
On a daily basis I've heard the residents and media out of Portland and Eugene calling to route these people out of Harney County. We've been lied to as well. There have been reports that militia members have been cruising Burns harassing residents but when it was looked into they found that it was FBI agents disguising themselves as militia members doing the harassing.
When the Obama administration sued the state of Arizona for enforcing federal immigration laws the SCOTUS determined that the states have no right to do that. Yet here in Oregon they utilized the state police and the sheriff's department to enforce federal law. What's wrong with this picture.
The America we grew up in is rapidly disappearing and it distresses me no end.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 30, 2016, 08:13 AM:
"The America we grew up in is rapidly disappearing and it distresses me no end".
Yep I couldn't agree more.......
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on January 30, 2016, 10:55 AM:
quote:
I find it interesting that the video contains no sound. Word is that Finicum was shot and was clutching the wound making it look like he was reaching for a gun.
The only way we'll see the truth is by viewing a camera shot form one of the vehicles with sound. The entire issue hangs on whether the cop shot as a response to Finicum reaching in his waistband or he was shot before.
Good point! I would like to see another angle with sound. We are told he was reaching for a gun. Was he? Why would he exit the vehicle, move into the least protected area, the wide open with his hands up, and then reach for a gun where he had to know he would be killed?
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on January 30, 2016, 10:57 AM:
Ruby Ridge and Waco IMO made me loose most trust in or gov't.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 30, 2016, 11:55 AM:
Yes, and they had to save the little boy hiding in the closet, down in Florida with machine guns. A miracle nobody was killed in that fiasco. But, same deal, Janet Reno strikes again.
Thank God, nobody was killed on Wall Street! Or, in the Baltimore riots, you know, let them destroy. A few million dollars damage, a few TV sets gone missing but at least nobody got shot.
Reginald Denny just got a bump on the head while the cameras were rolling and law enforcement was standing on the opposite corner, watching him get brained. But, no harm done, right? Then the thug does an end zone dance. He's probably a professor somewhere, these days?
Good hunting. El Bee
But, yes. the hand movement MAY have been a reflex to being shot. I mean, it's a fair question!
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on January 30, 2016, 06:38 PM:
Won't ever happen. Finnicum was a cowboy, a .45 guy, revolver. That was at the compound. Whether he had a 9 in his pocket is speculation. PS. If I'm ever shot by LE while reaching for a 9mm, please call bullshit.
It's coming, folks!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 30, 2016, 10:35 PM:
Well, they breathlessly mentioned and speculated about a 9mm, for some reason? Maybe to justify the fact that he was already dead?
The odd thing is, at this point, they have not said: "yup, he has a Roscoe 9mm and here it is!" CASE CLOSED !
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on January 31, 2016, 01:52 AM:
You guys think this stuff is confined to cowboys holed up on Federal preserves?
One of my BIGGEST concerns is being shot by another cop while I am responding to an incident off duty. If you have been following law enforcement for the past 27 years as I have, you will know that friendly fire is a common occurrence in law enforcement, whether it is uniformed shots on plain clothes personnel or uniformed shots on off duty personnel. It happens at least a few times every year.
But you know what? I don't bitch and complain about it. I fully understand that I put myself at risk by responding in plain clothes. Yeah, I have a "police" windbreaker in the trunk of my unmarked car, and will never have a chance to get it when something really bad happens.
So, if I ever get shot by another cop and they say I had a nine millimeter in my pocket, please call BS. Because I carry a .45 with a .380 as a backup.
Oh...one more thing, if another cop mistakes me to be a perp and tells me to put my hands up with a gun pointed at me, I will leave them up until I am cleared.
Stupid games...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 31, 2016, 06:08 AM:
That's interesting, 49. That's one of my concerns, as well. Trying to help, during a holdup or somene shooting fish in a barrel, I worry about those nervous trigger fingers, should I haul out my iron.
Therefore the least concern is if some turd be shooting at me, that's gonna get me motivated. The other stuff, muslims in a mall, etc. I just wonder if I might be putting myself in jepardy by displaying a firearm?
It's sure as hell something to think about. And, I have already thought about it, a lot.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: it's also interesting to consider how my personal protection has evolved, over the years. For many, I carried my Combat Commander, then I went with a S&W Mod. 36 and a Bauer 25ACP , but now I rely on my new S&W Shield 40 and my Seacamp 32ACP. Boolits have also changed. I used to be big on Glazers in 45 and 25, but have drifted to regular service ammunition. The Seacamp people only recommend one factory cartridge, the 60gr. Winchester HP and that's what I use. In 40S&W, I have tried just about everything you can think of and a few more, foreign and domestic. Have not got around to handloads yet, don't even have dies. As soon as I get enough empties to justify, I will. That's one thing about an autoloader, crawling under benches to retreive brass. I visited a range up in the hi desert a few months ago that had a large plastic screen with a trough next to every bench. In my case, it collected about half of the empties. In 45, I usually wait until I have 500/700 empty cases before I reload them. Takes years, considering that it represents about 50% of what I shot. LB
[ January 31, 2016, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on February 01, 2016, 09:04 AM:
I stand corrected. Finnicum WAS known to carry a 9mm in a shoulder rig. I never meant to imply that I feel this was anything but a "good shoot", from what I had seen. IMO, Finnicum was afforded plenty of latitude as far as dropping his hands several times and giving the implication that he was reaching for something. More than I would have given someone who had made the statement that he wouldn't be put in a concrete box, on tape for all the world to see.
This gives a pretty fair play by play, IMO.
Link
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 01, 2016, 01:28 PM:
I really don't think it makes any difference whether he had a gun or not.
He exits the vehicle with hands in the air. Then he makes a move to his waist and starts doing a lot of high stepping in the snow expecting a bullet at anytime. Especially because he realizes he is in a crossfire between the man in the timber and the man he almost ran over.
Another move to his waist still does not produce the intended result and he has to make it a third time while squaring off with the man in the timber before finally getting shot.
Even with Alcoa....suicide by cop. He rode that bull many times in his mind and only had one more ride in real life.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 01, 2016, 01:42 PM:
Thanks for the link. I read all of it and a whole bunch of comments then reviewed the video.
Okay, apparently he had a sidearm and apparently he made some comments about arrest, etc. Also, the never able to understand actions of people, knowing they have guns pointed at them, yet they make stupid gestures.
Anyway, the analyst presents a reasonably strong case. My fallback opinion is similar to a couple in the comment section. Why all the bullshit when there were several times they could have put cuffs on any of these guys, face to face?
Why did they have to arrest them, what were they doing, what were the multiple felonies? Trespass while armed? I'm still leaning on the Occupy Wall Street tolerance? because, guns?
I'm just a hardheaded anti authority bastard. It's selective....if you know what I mean?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on February 01, 2016, 02:23 PM:
Divide and separate. I believe the Feds had built sufficient evidence and were ready for the situation to end. This field trip made that a possibility, except one of the folks wanted to become a martyr.
ETA: Those are good points Leonard. I've heard through the grapevine that explosives may have entered the conversation. True or not, I don't know, probably never will (for sure). The locals wanted them gone, they weren't gaining much support, they should have gone home shortly after arriving....this time.
Pick your battles wisely.
[ February 01, 2016, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: jimanaz ]
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 01, 2016, 03:09 PM:
A little more to chew on.
http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/2016/02/01/witness-insider-helped-police-arrest-bundy-group/79661994/
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on February 01, 2016, 03:54 PM:
She says things the video refutes. Was there a mole? I wouldn't be one bit surprised. Someone is bound to figure out "this isn't going like they said it would", "the FBI is here with ALL of their big toys", "this isn't going to end well". Cooperation goes a long way with LE, "help me help you".
Bottom line, unless you want to get shot, don't make furtive gestures when LE is trying to detain you. Believe me, Lavoy KNEW that!
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on February 01, 2016, 04:41 PM:
quote:
He rode that bull many times in his mind and only had one more ride in real life.
Classic!!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 01, 2016, 06:56 PM:
Rode a bull? I'm not really understanding this classic remark. I must be slow? Can somebody translate, I'm Polish.
edit: Not really, the name is Polish, but I'm 3/4 French and German. no excuse?
Whatever, I don't get it? Sounds profound though?
[ February 01, 2016, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 02, 2016, 05:18 AM:
It means he rehearsed this particular event in his head prior to actually carrying-out what he had in mind.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 02, 2016, 07:15 AM:
Got it. Thank you.
edit: by the way, I recognized him from all the media interviews, he was very noticeable and dressed half cowboy, half camo. But, he did not appear to be
THAT RADICAL to me? I mean, you have to be pretty lunatic to commit suicide by cop, and he didn't project that image? Man! That's hardcore!
Good hunting. El Bee
[ February 02, 2016, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 02, 2016, 10:06 AM:
So what exactly was the point of their protest ??
That public land be ...........public ??
Or was it to gain access to the Refuge to graze their cattle ??
Wasn't this the same bunch that had some kind of convoluted reasoning justifying them not paying grazing fees a while back ??
I'm confused.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 02, 2016, 12:28 PM:
CrossJ had this posted in the other thread. Hope it helps some, to give ya a little background for what's been building.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 02, 2016, 01:23 PM:
quote:
So what exactly was the point of their protest ??
Whatever it is or was, I am quite positive the unbiased Media will not give us an honest report and evaluation. Not if your life depended on it, and in some cases, it might? "They" (The Impartial Media) most definitely does pick sides and promotes that side to the exclusion of the other. It's just PRAVDA, Western Edition. I think NAZI Minister of Propaganda, Joseph Gobbels is the Gold Standard for most of our mainstream media.
How else could the Clinton's get away with the stuff they do? Would Obama have been elected unless our Media decided to ignore his obvious shortcomings?
But, they investigate Republicans mercilessly. Was it 125 reporters that traveled to Alaska when Palin was announced as the Vice President nominee, digging through garbage?
How about investigating squeaky clean Mitt Romney? He actually administered an unwanted haircut to a classmate in college. When his father died, George Romney, he donated the entire amount, around 6 Million dollars, to charity. Our Media didn't try too hard getting that juicy tidbit out for the public, in fact, suppressed reporting it because it was favorable to Romney and we can't let that kind of stuff get around.
We have every reason to be suspicious of the Media. They are not our friends, politically, but they bend over backwards to help their friends. Pathetic situation.
End of rant.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 02, 2016, 02:36 PM:
Ok........Thanx !!!
What a mess.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 03, 2016, 06:24 AM:
Then, there's this. How true it is, let the reader decide.
Chilling details emerge about Fed Murder of Oregon Rancher…
February 3, 2016
Last week, news broke that LaVoy Finicum had been gunned down by federal agents following an ambush, and while video of the terrifying incident was released, details have been slim. However, that’s since changed, and after his family received his body, they made a chilling discovery.
The investigative blog LozzaFun1 had more information about Finicum’s death, which seemed more like an assassination if you actually watched the video, and according to Barbara Davis, things are exactly as they appeared to be. If you remember, the FBI claims that they found a 9mm pistol in Finicum’s pocket after searching his lifeless body, but there’s eyewitness reports that he and the people with him purposefully left the weapons at the refuge in case they ran into law enforcement.
That same witness also claimed that the reason Finicum fled the initial stop is because he was being shot at by authorities.
“The only reason he drove off was because he was being fired at so he drove off so he didn’t get shot. There’s two rounds in the top of his truck that they were able to photograph. That’s why he drove off and tried to get around there because he was afraid they were going to kill him. And he was right.”
The FBI’s claim is further called into question after seeing what Davis wrote on Facebook about the serial number. Apparently, members of the Pacific Patriots Network were able to run the serial number 54119868, and the weapon was stolen two years ago, so she believes it’s a plant.
Also, when Finicum’s family received the rancher’s body, they discovered that he had been shot nine times by federal authorities. If you watch the video, that seems like entirely too many for the situation, considering that Finicum appeared to have his hands in the air just prior to being mercilessly gunned down. Davis also said that Finicum now has to have a closed casket funeral, thanks to being shot directly in the face.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 03, 2016, 07:52 AM:
Where's the " Hands up don't Shoot" assholes rioting in the streets for this guy.lol
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 03, 2016, 10:23 AM:
Been awful quite the last few days.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on February 03, 2016, 10:43 AM:
quote:
Where's the " Hands up don't Shoot" assholes rioting in the streets for this guy
Had this conversation with others yesterday. With Ferguson and Baltimore we were inundated with 24 hour media coverage as well as throngs of politicians and talking heads stepping up to right an 'injustice'. With Oregon.....maybe a few sound bites, and what we heard was 'federal agents are involved in a "shoot out" with armed protesters'. I saw the footage, and not what I would call a 'shoot out'. There was no political bounty to be had in Oregon. No new social program could be implemented to redistribute wealth, no large blocks of ill informed voters to win over, and no collection of social servants to cut from the herd and burn at the steak. Only two choices for villains....the ranchers or the bloated .Gov . I've got a pretty good idea who will wear the black hat here(no pun intended).
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 03, 2016, 10:51 AM:
Well, we haven't heard much from Tom, the last couple days, but he seems to be a law and order type that sees these ranchers as agitators. Apologize if I am misquoting him, but there is another side to this.
I don't know who's right, but like was mentioned above, where's the outrage?
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on February 03, 2016, 11:04 AM:
quote:
where's the outrage?
It will be in the form Molan Labe stickers, III%er t shirts and "don't tread on me" tats. Its hard for all the "operator as fuck" guys to coordinate vacation time for the revolution.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 03, 2016, 11:13 AM:
I would imagine the ranching community has to be spooked right now ? I mean what do ya do, raise to much hell, only to get a grazing permit yanked ? Some of these guys are dealing with road blocks and shit, just to go feed livestock.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 03, 2016, 12:09 PM:
Don't jump on me for this sentiment, but: The fucking government is not your friend....unless you are a minority. Otherwise all they expect from us is taxes, so that they may redistribute it.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 03, 2016, 01:37 PM:
Amen ........
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on February 03, 2016, 03:32 PM:
10-4 on the lack of outrage.
Not too sure i am buying into the whole conspiracy theory though. That shoot looked justified to me, at least from this vantage point. The gun could have been stolen. It happens. Not following orders after you just lead the cops on a chase is probably not the smartest thing to do. As I mentioned earlier, being in law enforcement myself I still would have complied if I were mistaken for a bad guy. Comply, stay safe, and sort out the rest of the BS later.
Cross J is correct though, it was a "shooting" and not a "shootout."
[ February 03, 2016, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 03, 2016, 06:49 PM:
I'll be clear. I'm on nobody's side.
I would just like to mention, we are basing our thought's and opinions based upon what the FBI & Media have released.
Need, I say more ?
(edit) There are good LEO's out there. I'm quite sure 49 is one of them. He must go thru hell on the east coast, we probably can't imagine.
I'm just not good with this Military cop look-precense if you will in my beloved E-Oregon.
[ February 03, 2016, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 04, 2016, 08:13 AM:
Speaking of good cops.............What ever happened to that nice Mr. Del Que fellow ???
Haven't heard from him in a while.
Edit 4 speling
[ February 04, 2016, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Kokopelli ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 04, 2016, 09:16 AM:
WASN'T HE GOING TO MOVE, (oops) from Florida to someplace like Montana?
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 04, 2016, 10:34 AM:
Latest info.
http://www.ktvb.com/news/local/4-holdouts-in-oregon-standoff-facing-charges/32475378
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on February 12, 2016, 06:25 AM:
See if you guys can wrap your heads around this:
Hammond Ranch Uranium scandel
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 12, 2016, 07:13 AM:
Hey, when are they going to get around to investigating Chapaquidick? I get the feeling that Democrats never get indicted?
The thing that keeps me from getting any sleep at night is the two liberal females that Obama already appointed to the Supreme Court and the prospect of how many appointment opportunities Hillary will have during the next 4-8 years!
The Republicans don't have the balls to fight these unqualified nominations, that has been demonstrated continuously, the last seven years. Hell, just off the top of my head; what did Hillary do that qualified her for Secretary of State? <crickets>
This is goddamned serious, people!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on February 12, 2016, 09:01 AM:
It's not that they don't have the balls. It's that they're complicit. Republicans go along with the Democrats almost every single time. I used to think they're gutless but I've seen the way they've battled the people within their own party in order to continue with their agenda. Boehnor and McConnell and too many others in the party did everything in their power to keep conservatives from gaining control of the party. Boehnor actually donated money from his own campaign fund to many non conservative candidates being challenged by a conservative. McConnell has done worse than that.
In the case of Christine McDonald, a Tea Party candidate, in Delaware and Joe Miller, another Tea Party candidate who actually beat Lisa Murkowski in the primary, the party with held campaign funds from them. They lost the seat in Delaware to a self avowed Communist and then funded the campaign of Lisa Murkowski even though she ran as an independent.
Then Boehnor stripped every conservative of their committee leadership.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 12, 2016, 11:46 AM:
Moe, you're making it sound like nobody's on our side? The Democrats never were. Ever. Now, we cannot depend on Republicans? What's left? Libertarians? Ron Paul? He just left town. Now what?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on February 12, 2016, 04:11 PM:
Does Paul Ryan seem to be on our side? How about Mitch McConnell?
There are some Republicans who live up to conservative principles but they're despised in their own party. Look at Ted Cruz. I believe he's a genuine conservative but Boehnor liked to call him "shithead" to his face. Then we read that "nobody likes him." And if you read the Republican rags like National Review, a one time great conservative magazine that went more liberal once William F Buckley died, you won't find a single good word about Cruz. Since the electorate has made it clear that they don't want another Bush in the Whitehouse their next best bet is Rubio. Rubio tried to screw us once in the Gang if Eight fiasco so why wouldn't he do it again?
Republican voters are sick of it and it explains the popularity of Trump. They want some serious change in the party establishment and they think that Trump is the guy to do it.
I've seen a couple of articles that say one of the Koch brothers is lamenting that he has no control over who may get the nomination. Trump doesn't need Koch money or money from the Chamber of Commerce of the US or any of the Republican party's big donors.
I believe Cruz would shake up the party but who knows? I've supported a few candidates like Pat Toomey who when he got in office teamed up with a Democrat and tried to pass a gun control bill. It failed. I sent him an email and asked that he return my donation to his campaign. Fat chance.
Rubio and Ryan were also Tea Party candidates. Look at what they've done since getting in office.
I follow Libertarian principles but I don't vote that way. I'm as frustrated as anyone else. During the last election Republicans made a bunch of promises that they immediately broke once they got the majority in the Senate. And have you noticed that when they're running for office every one of them identifies as a conservative? Even McCain tried to tell us he is a Reagen conservative. BS!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 12, 2016, 04:51 PM:
Well, when you run down the list, there is nobody that has disappointed me more than that asshole John McCain. He gave the Presidency to Obama, it was tragic, and look what this man has cost us in these wretched last seven years. And, he's not done. Look of Ginsberg to retire and the spineless Congress to do nothing to stop DICKWEED from naming another extreme left wing liberal!
It's unbelievable. They don't try to stop Obama on anything? And, Obama's "working" with congress consists of demanding that Republicans agree with his ideas, he doesn't know the meaning of the word, "compromise" because he doesn't need to do it. It's my way or the highway, with that asshole.
Personally, and I have to look over my shoulder when I say this, but I don't care how much he is despised by everybody in Washington, I like Ted Cruz. My fear is that the low information voter will rather elect Hillary or Mr McGoo, Sanders.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on February 12, 2016, 09:26 PM:
I like Cruz. Mostly because he's taken on his own party. Recently he called McConnell a liar on the Senate floor. Cruz was absolutely right. McConnell lied to the Senate and to us.
And McCain......you do know that McCain had a conversation with John Kerry about McCain being his running mate, right?
McCain has always thought that he should be president and when the Republicans failed to support him for years he looked long and hard about switching parties.
There are a number of Republicans who can be counted on to vote with the Democrats. John McCain, Lindsay Graham, Susan Collins, Orin Hatch, Lisa Murkowski, Jeff Flake and the list goes on.
The Tea Party was set to run a challenger against Orin Hatch But he called Sara Palin and promised he'd change his ways. As soon as he went back to Washington he just continued business as usual. Hatch is chairman of the Senate Judicial Committee. He not only voted to confirm Loretta Lynch he said he'd confirm her before there was ever a hearing. Hatch has rubber stamped every liberal judge that Obama nominated. Sotomayor and Kagan are a couple more.
I saw a bumper sticker today that said, "OBAMA PUT AMERICA IN THE TOILET. ELECT HILLARY AND SHE'LL FLUSH IT"
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2016, 04:15 AM:
The term "RINO" is what you're looking for. But realistically, weez fuked! Elect a man like Cruz with zero support in congress? Unlikely, ain't it? One can dream.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on February 13, 2016, 06:10 AM:
Many of the same people that are against Cruz were also against Reagan. Karl Rove fought Reagan tooth and nail but he won. Why Reagan chose GHW Bush as his running mate is beyond me. Rove was his campaign manager and Bush said some of the most awful things about Reagan. But Reagan's presidency was a good one. But Reagan knew how to talk to the people.
Funny to think about it but McConnell got into the Senate on Reagan's coattails.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 13, 2016, 06:22 AM:
Been saying for a long time, that I despise the republicans as much as I do the democrats.
Haven't had a party to support in a long, long time.
I think there are a lot of people like me, that hate them all and would come out and vote for the real deal.
Won't make any predictions on Trump. I've no idea whether he'll get the nomination, whether he'd win the general or what kind of a president he would make.
He strikes me as a leaky vessel into which to pour much hope though.
- DAA
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 13, 2016, 07:33 AM:
Sadly I will hold my nose and vote for whoever the Republican nominee is again.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 15, 2016, 07:34 AM:
Media play by play, long..
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/page/oregon_standoff_a_timeline_of.html#incart_2box
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on March 16, 2016, 06:47 AM:
Wouldn't appear that the Feds and the local law can get on the same page ?
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/bullet_casings_dis appear_from.html#incart_river_home_pop
[ March 16, 2016, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 16, 2016, 09:46 AM:
The thing that sticks in my mind is these "officers" shouldn't be allowed firearms. Forgetting the bullshit about The guy "reaching" for something. This is a time honored excuse for a cop to blast away. They don't display a tenth of the caution that an average citizen would display, in the same circumstances. You know, will I go to jail for defending myself, etc.
Now, what's a "Bullet casing"? How can they disappear when normally, they can find microscopic fibres and fucking DNA on damned near anything? That video from inside is really scary. I'm surprised they didn't go full auto, mow 'em all down, let God sort 'em out!
I will say this. Dealing with law enforcement, it's a wonder we aren't shot, regularly. They truly have license to kill. Think anybody will be held responsible in this case? Don't be silly.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on March 18, 2016, 04:58 PM:
Here is another version kinda the same thing. With a comment, I'll paste.
The Cox video makes it possible to mark the exact moment that the two suspected FBI shots were fired. The video shows the first bullet hitting the truck: Sparks fall from the truck's ceiling, followed by the shattering of the left passenger window.
Now look right @ the one minute mark in the video. When that window shatters his hands are up in the air, right ?
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/finicum_shooting_scale_diagram.html#incart_gallery
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 19, 2016, 01:23 PM:
The State Trooper shooting was ruled justified. This is when Finicum was outside his vehicle, at the point we saw him reaching to his coat.
The FBI shooting is in question. This involves the two casings that went missing, the casings one of the State Troopers observed on the ground in the area the FBI agents were situated.
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