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PS and cops LIE! It's amazing, they do it all the time, and under oath. Yet, they are given the benefit of the doubt nearly all the time. Shit, I guess I do sound anti cop? For that, I apologize.

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They ought to be hung if it can be proven they shot him by accident and then tried to do a cover-up.

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Did I ever tell you the one about what they did to my wife?

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The police department eventually launched an investigation that resulted in Antkowiak resigning. The others officers involved were all cleared of wrongdoing.

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This is the part that fans the flames. The guy RESIGNED! RESIGNED! That's right, free to go work as a cop somewhere else.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 03, 2014, 10:19 AM:
 
http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/02/cop-who-shot-hofstra-student-in-the-head-and-killed-her-walks-free/
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on April 03, 2014, 01:27 PM:
 
As posted on the website with the video, why did it take the prosecutor 15 months to view the dash cam videos, the most obvious evidence?

Aren't prosecutors supposed to turn over all evidence to the defendants lawyers? Totally corrupt legal system.
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on April 03, 2014, 02:03 PM:
 
I can honestly say that I didn't use to think that all cops were capable of COLD BLOODED MURDER WITHOUT REMORSE. I knew some were sorry assed, lying, revenue gathering egotistical pricks but to participate in unwarranted shootings and then lie to help in the cover up tells me that "LAW ENFORCEMENT" has a whole new meaning.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on April 03, 2014, 05:19 PM:
 
Correct, LB. Two years ago, my wife was arrested. Actually, the arresting officer tried to arrest her in the middle of a doctor's appointment. The arrest was for forgery and attempted prescription fraud when a physician's assistant working at an urgent care clinic in a nearby town made an error on a prescription he gave her after being seen under the order of her doctor. The felony forgery charge was dismissed from the paperwork even before we went to arraignment four days after her arrest. They continued to pursue the fraud charge which is a misdemeanor in Kansas. They claimed that the suspect handwriting was illegible, but discovery provided us with all the evidence they had to support the probable cause arrest, consisting of the rx sheet, and a security video (no audio) of her at the counter at the pharmacy.

She admitted, or more accurately, agreed with the officers when they asked her if she was at the clinic the night before, and then went to the pharmacy. They showed her the suspicious rx and asked her if the writing for lortab (one of three rx's on that single sheet) was hers. She said no. They tried to badger her into making a confession by repeatedly insisting that it was. She repeatedly denied knowing anything about it. They asked how she could not know what was on the script since she had agreed to it being her prescription. This was in late January, at 8 pm. It was dark. She tried to explain to them that the PA handed her the rx, she took it to the car, placed it on the seat and didn't pick it up again until after she had driven the ~12 blocks in busy traffic to the pharmacy where she handed it to the clerk at a drive-up window. They continued to badger her about why she wouldn't look at it and she explained to them that she had been in severe pain, felt like shit, and only felt like getting the two meds she thought were on the rx and going home. Nothing unusual here.

They considered this - an admission that she went to a clinic, saw this PA, and took an RX to the pharmacy that he gave her - as probable cause for an arrest. Seriously, they did.

For the next year - an entire year - they dragged the case on and on and on. We made four separate trips to court only to have the trial continued. Just days before we would have seen the case dismissed due to violating the guarantee of a speedy trial, our attorney got called to Topeka for a conference on a capital murder case and because WE had the conflict, the clock began anew.

During this year, with our attorney's permission, I submitted all the documents provided to us through discovery to three different LEO's. A local female officer, retired, with 23 years patrol experience, Joe Bradshaw (Arky Joe) who served a long and distinguished career with the Arkansas State Police, and our own lovable whipping post, 4949, who has been serving for years with the NJ State Police. I asked them all to review the evidence and, based upon their experience, tell me if they felt there was sufficient evidence to make a probable cause arrest rather than further investigate the charges and see if there were grounds to seek a warrant for arrest.

Bear in mind, probable cause is not always cut and dried, but in most cases, PC is based upon whether the officer has evidence that a crime has occurred, is occurring at that time, or is likely to occur. For example, an LEO sees you driving erratically, swerving over the center line and back across the fog line, speeding up and slowing down, etc., and has reason to believe your driving may be impaired by alcohol or drugs. He or she thus has probable cause that a crime is occurring and he has PC to stop you and take you into custody if further evidence discovered indicates that his initial suspicion was correct.

In our case, I asserted that the officers should have taken the report from the PA, interviewed Lisa, the PA, and the pharmacy technician that waited on her (all of which they did), then turned that information/evidence into their investigative people who would have reviewed the information, conducted further interviews, and presented their report to the prosecutor who would then determine if there were sufficient grounds to request a warrant for arrest.

None of this was done.

The officers interviewed the PA, went to the pharmacy tech's house and interviewed her, then using the information from the PA that my wife had told him - that she had an appointment with Dr. X the next day for the condition she was seeking help for - they hurried over to the dr's office, ran the plates on our car in the parking lot, confirmed we were there and hurried up to the office where they tried to take her into custody. Yep, they tried. And, they failed.

I knew they'd fucked up, but the senior "master patrol officer" was training a buck rookie and he was so engrossed in impressing this kid that he ran right past his common sense. I asked him he knew my brother - the guy who trained their department's drug interdiction squad - and he smiled and said he did. I advised him that "X" was my brother and asked him again if he really wanted to arrest "X"'s sister in law with no more evidence than they were presenting. He thought about it a moment and said he would allow me to bring her to the station after her appointment and I assured him I would. We met with our lawyer, went to the PD and she was arrested and charged.

Moving forward. At no time did the department, the officers, the prosecutor or the state request or even attempt to secure an exemplar of my wife's handwriting. They had no idea if she had written that lortab line or not.

Going back to my three LEO's, all three got back to me within a day and all three stated that they did NOT feel there was sufficient probable cause in the evidence offered to warrant an arrest at that time. The local officer told me she would have asked my wife to come in to the station for a sworn consensual interview as a means of either gathering more information to support an arrest, or to rule her out.

49 asked me if I minded if their in-house handwriting guy could look at the document and see anything. I asked him to do that, asking him only to tell me how many people wrote on the paper, and who wrote what. The police report already stated for the record that the PA had claimed to have written medications 2 and 3 on the script, and my wife's name. The pharmacy tech admitted to having written our address, my wife's DOB, and the PA's DEA number from their files. Therefore, the only writing in question was for lortab. Both my wife and the PA denied writing that line.

49's guy got back to him the same day and told him that, in his opinion, there was handwriting from two people on that rx. One person wrote the name, medications and dosages, and a second person wrote the address, DOB and DEA number, and most importantly, "all three medications were written by the same hand". Unfortunately, none of this was admissible in court because the guy would not be here to back up his opinion. Our lawyer told us we could risk asking for the KBI to do the analysis, but there was always the risk that they would come up with bad results for us. We decided that failing to even request handwriting samples would be a good basis for moving to dismiss if needed and that it was unlikely that they could counter our lawyer's plan to ask the obvious question as to how my wife could have attempted to fraudulently acquire rx-only drugs if the state did not feel they were able to prove the means by which the attempt was made.

All of this was offered in court. All the questions were posed and everyone stumbled all over themselves trying to back peddle and offer sane answers. But, the PA lied on the stand, perjuring himself, and denied that he had been investigated and found in violation of HIIPA by giving medically identifiable information to the police that allowed them to come to the doctor's office and attempt their arrest. He was and he was punished for it. The pharmacy technician perjured herself and lied under oath when she backtracked on her story by saying that my wife, when told she would not be getting the lortab, tried to explain that she was supposed to pick it up for a friend. She denies saying that, and the video they had was video only, no audio to support or challenge the tech's claim.

In closing arguments, the prosecution goes first and has the option of saying their piece in one single statement or breaking it up into two. The defense has to follow the state's opening volley and cannot object during this phase of the proceedings.

The prosecutor made his first statement and sat down. Our attorney came next and explained to the jury that the defense has no obligation to offer a defense and that the state bears the burden of proof to prove that the crime charged had, in fact, been committed and that the evidence pointed the finger of responsibility at the defendant beyond a shadow of a doubt. He then went on to explain how the state had not proven that my wife had altered the script or by what means. He challenged the truthfulness of the state's witnesses and just plain stopped short of calling them liars.

When the prosecutor got back up, he went to the podium, waited for a dramatic few moments, then explained to the jury that my wife had "failed to prove that she did not, in fact, commit the crime for which she had been charged and that because she had failed to do so, common sense dictated that she be found guilty."

I just about fell off the bench I was sitting on as our lawyer turned around and looked at me.

He finished this bullshit and the jury was sent to deliberate. Two hours later, they came back with a guilty verdict. I was fucking SHOCKED and pissed. Still am.

Before another word was said, the judge looks at my wife and our lawyer and tells them, "I would encourage you to make a motion to recess for a couple weeks so you can further review what happened here today." Ever hear that happen? Our lawyer did so, and we were granted 3 weeks to file post-verdict motions.

Three weeks later, we go to court again and our attorney has filed several motions to dismiss the verdict, including based upon what a law professor on my route told me was called, "Improper shifting of burden or proof to upon the defense". He had advised me that in CA where he taught law, this was not only grounds for dismissing a verdict, but also grounds for prosecutorial misconduct if not disbarment of the prosecutor stupid enough to actually try it. A total affront to the rule of Constitutional law.

All motions were denied. Instead, the judge gave the following sentence: 30 days in jail, 6 months probation, and $160 in court costs. Huh? yeah, $160. He then said, and I quote, "When I see the receipt for the $160, all the rest of it goes away."

Our lawyer turned around to me and asked me if I could pay that (to)day and I said yeah, I could. We told the judge we would be right back and he led me to the door. As soon as the door shut behind us, he spins around and says, "What the hell just happened in there?!?" This guy defends capital murder cases and he'd never seen anything like this. I was pissed and more than a little confused, and simply said, "I don't know. You're the fucking lawyer. You tell me." He just shrugged his shoulders and opened the door to the court clerk's office.

Here's what I think happened. Understand, I spent that entire year raising total, holy HELL about what they were doing to my wife. It was no secret that I was furious and I had let everyone there know that when we got the acquittal, someone's ass was going to be sued. Specifically, the arresting officers and their department.

IMO, the judge did NOT want to overturn a jury verdict because, if he did, every case this county attorney, this assistant county attorney, and this judge had tried would have been open for scrutiny for prosecutorial misconduct. It would have been a shit storm for them and the judge, IMO, felt the best way was to let the verdict stand, slap my wife on the wrist for something even he knew she didn't do, then throwing the rest of the sentence out, all by making her pay a nominal amount that didn't even cover the cost of paying those jurors for their day or work. Only an idiot would react to that outcome by filing an appeal and spending thousands of dollars to try and overturn a conviction that wasn't even recorded in the books. If he could get us to just pay the $160 and put it all behind us, the prosecutor's office would dodge a hot bullet and avoid having to do any damage control come election time.

Within a month, I was advised that the assistant county attorney who did this was "downsized" and released from that office. Today, he's a public defender and has a private practice trying to draw in clients to defend on municipal court on about a third his prior paycheck (still overpaid). I'm doing everything I can to make sure that every dirtbag in three counties knows this guy is a total worthless and ineffective lying piece of shit. I ran into him about 7 months ago in a doctor's waiting room. My daughter and I came out from the exam area and he was sitting there with his little girl, about 3 years old. I just stopped and stared at him. He looked at me and I could tell he knew me from somewhere. I just smiled and quietly asked him if her remembered me, then without letting him respond, I told him that he would. Eventually. And I told him that it was a damned good thing his daughter was there or I would make sure he knew who I was. Instead, I told him, "You're my new hobby and any career you have left is limited. Outside the courthouse, you're just a piece of lying shit." And, I left.

Now, here's the prologue about how an irresponsible cop can do real damage.

A month after the sentencing, the stress of a year of being called a felon, a forger and a criminal caught up to my wife. She ended up spending a week in a hospital a hundred miles from home being treated for what amounted to a nervous breakdown.

She was forced to surrender her job because of the stress, and her license as a pharmacy technician because of the charges, and two web sites refuse to remove archived articles and headlines declaring that she was charged with forgery, stating clearly that the charge is a felony. Neither bothered to follow up on the initial arrest and report that the forgery charge was unfounded, incorrect, and dismissed. Instead, she has filed countless job applications in the past year and every single company has turned her down. Only recently, I was able to trip one HR person up in getting them to acknowledge that those web sites were a determining factor in tossing out her application.

I have recently requested that both sites remove the inaccurate material but have not received a reply from either. So, I will be forced to seek legal counsel to pursue a libel case against both administrators and seek a court order to have the pages removed. If I have to do that, I'm going after punitive damages as well. If I can find counsel.

The point? You don't have to be shot and killed by an LEO to have your life destroyed by their negligence. Just being arrested and having that information, correct or not, archived on the internet makes it immediately available to anyone, anywhere in the world, at any time. Until and if I can get those pages taken down, my wife will not work again. Just in the one year since sentencing, it has cost us over $40k in lost income, + $160 court costs.

I plan to take my pound of flesh other ways. I am asking to meet with the LEO's new Chief to make sure he knows how this officer works in the field. I have found his family, his mom, his siblings, and his (recently) ex-wife and I plan to make sure they know what a total POS he is. It isn't slander if it's true, and I have a LOT to tell them. I will make his life fucking miserable and will enjoy myself doing it.

Like him, my brother trained me, too. I remember him telling me that no matter how new the car, or how careful the driver, a good LEO will find a reason to pull you over to take a look inside. It might take patience, but it would and could be done. Same thing here. I don't care how careful the guy is, I will be waiting when he fucks up and I will make sure those that need to know about it to have an impact on his life will be informed and that action will be taken. Done it twice before and don't have a problem taking down an incompetent and potentially harmful public official again.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 03, 2014, 09:34 PM:
 
I agree with your brother. Not saying it's logical or reasonable or ethical, but they will come up with a reason. Like (oh?) under inflated tires? Excessive volume on the radio? Or, my all time favorite....weaving! It doesn't matter if it's true, but if, in the officer's judgement, you were certainly weaving, chump!

Sad story, Lance. I don't know if you will ever get satisfaction, but good luck.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on April 03, 2014, 09:39 PM:
 
Lance,
What an absolute friggin nightmare!!
I can only imagine the helpless feeling you and yours felt throughout this ordeal.
You'd think there'd be attorneys lining up to counter sue the whole lot of them, but I know that's not always the case either.

I'm confused though...
who forged, or jacked up the script? Did the PA just inadvertently write down a med on accident? And then lied just to cover his ass because of incompetence?
Was the tech trying to pull a fast one, to pocket the script?

I can't even imagine...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 04, 2014, 06:55 AM:
 
Yeah, same here. Some of the explain is a little murky. LB
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on April 04, 2014, 06:11 PM:
 
Going solely off the evidence, we believe that the PA wrote the lortab on the script. There were three different meds listed, top line, middle line and bottom line. The lortab was the first one listed. The next one down was indented like "tabbing" it one big space to the right and the third one was indented two of those spaces to the right. There were numerous features in the writing that were obvious to our attorney, as well as to 49's guy, uncluding a very unique weay to write the letter "q" which is a medical abbreviation for "every", as in "One tablet every four hours" being written "1 q 4 h".

And yes, the guy appeared to be covering his ass. As I stated, we filed a complaint against him and his office for privacy voilations (HIPAA) with the U.S. Dept of Health & Human Services - Office for Civil Rights". His actions were thoroughly investigated and we were provided with a lengthy latter outlining how he had been found in violation of a list of clauses and sections of the HIPAA. When our attorney asked him if he had been investigated for a HIPAA violation concerning my wife, he denied it. Our attorney asked him again, and again, he denied it. When the letter stating the ruling was projected onto a large screen on the courtroom wall, he stated under oath that he was not aware of any investigation or that ruling. He lied about that, so I don't consider it a stretch to think he would lie about anything else.

I have the script copy on my other computer. I'll try and post it so you can see what we saw.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on April 04, 2014, 06:48 PM:
 


This is the script. The Lortab on the top line is the line in question. The tramadol and Mobic were both confirmed by the PA. She was being treated for severe abdominal pain.

The original scrutiny of the rx was when the pharmacy tech noticed the 3 with the vertical line through it. The PA had originally written "1 PO q 6 hrs prn" and realized he had meant to put "3" instead. He simply overwrote it. You do not do that. Ideally, he should have destroyed the sheet and started over at that point, Or at the very least, put a single line thru the "1", initialed it, and then wrote the "3" alongside it. That's taught to you in day one of school about medical documentation. You never black out or cross out anything without initialing the error to show who did it. His incompetence was evident at every turn in this case.

On the script, you can see the unusual q in the tramadol line (q 6 hrs prn, every 6 hours as needed). A smaller but similar version of that q is in the lortab line. On the copy that was presented in court, those q's were much more visible.

Even though these things all look alike, none of them look like Lisa's handwriting, and they have not even now ever seen a sample of her handwriting.

Look again at this script. Now, they had this, and a five minute long video of Lisa standing at the counter interacting with the pharmacy tech. No audio to know what was said. No video or witnesses to testify that they witnessed Lisa writing on anything, such as that script. The video and this script which Lisa denies altering is all they went on and all they needed, along with the prosecutor's statements, to convict her.

Here's a few extra things to consider that I think were part of this whole deal. First, the supervising doctor at StatCare, to whom the PA answered and to whom the PA showed told this to the next morning, and who made the decision to call the police, is the same doctor who, two months prior, examined my daughter. During that exam, he suggested we order a CT of her head and I declined. I thought she had a sinus infection because of a headache, she has a history of meningitis.The doctor got mad at me and grabbed my daughter by the face with his thumb under one cheek bone and his fingers under the other, and thrust her head back with sufficient force that she had to grab the exam bed to keep from falling off. I ordered him to release her immediately and told Tabor that we were leaving before I kicked this doctor's ass. In looking back, I should have called the police and had HIM arrested for battery of a minor. Instead, I filed a formal complaint with his administrator and he was disciplined. I honestly believe that he saw Lisa's last name, made the connection and went from there. This guy is a hot head with anger issues. He was part of a large practice that owns STatCare as a satellite clinic, but was re-assigned to StatCare because, as I understand it, frequent patient complaints. Our lawyer officiates high school football on the side and he told of a time he and the other officials had to physically remove this doctor - also an official - when he totally lost it on a spectator who was badgering him about a bad call. What happened to Lisa was retribution for my questioning his work as a doctor.

Second, Lisa went to StatCare because our doctor - part of that larger practice - had told her to get there if she felt a sudden increase in pain. That's why she went. The morning after her arrest, that practice fired our entire family as patients and blacklisted us with every clinic and practice in Salina. It took me nearly three months to find a doctor that would care for her because of what had been broadcast and published in the news. Ironically, and sadly, after thousands of dollars in tests, it was determined that her abdominal pain was caused by another medicine that the doctor that fired her had prescribed.

Lessons learned? First, the highest and most regarded in our communities - doctors and LEO's - can be deceitful liars and scum just like anyone else. Don't trust anyone.

Second, if you are being prescribed meds by your doctor, demand that the rx be transmitted electronically to your pharmacy. if you must carry a written script, for any reason, insist that there be only one medicine per sheet and no more than that.

We don't know for certain who wrote the lortab on the script. All we do know is that Lisa did NOT, and the prosecutor preyed upon that by leading the jury to believe that it was incumbent upon her to prove to them that she did not commit the crime for which she had been charged. Doing so is impossible. You cannot logically prove a negative. It cannot be done.

Make a list of everything you did not do today, whether that's build a house, wash your car, forge a falsified prescription or overthrow a small foreign government. Now, prove to me that you did NOT do those things. This is why the Constitution places the burden of proof upon the state, to prove that what is being charged was, in fact, done, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

If you can sling enough bullshit and convince a jury, anything can happen, and in this case, it did. I have no faith whatsoever in the system anymore. I used to have a LOT of friends who wear shields. Today, I refuse to have anything to do with any of them. I will respect the badge, but as to the people, I cannot bring myself to trust them after what I've found the system to have become. The ol' school cops were good guys. Today, it's about power, intimidation and forcing you to say what they want you to say. Most of the local guys know what happened and they give me a wide berth. I won't even wave at them on the street.

Once again, Lisa's life - our lives - have been forever changed. She cannot find work and we have been forced to live on one income. Her license as a pharmacy technician was left to expire because she could not find anyone to employ her in that field because of this conviction. She cannot even get a look from the convenience store down the street, that's how bad it is. And some people wonder why I'm "angry" all the time.

[ April 04, 2014, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 04, 2014, 08:38 PM:
 
Geeze, I've seen reality series on TV with less drama! Then, there was the episode with your son.....
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on April 06, 2014, 09:59 AM:
 
My son is slowly making head way. At least he's working now and his injury qualified him for vocational rehab job training, so that's a plus.

And our daughter has severe OCD with social anxiety disorder. Homebound for now but making headway. The school has been helpful but is now starting to give me some problems meeting the terms of the ADA protections for her. I sincerely hope this doesn't become a greater problem. Has new counseling people. The last one actually told us, after we gave him a full accounting of what all we deal with in our home, "I just don't know how you guys are dealing with this." He was serious as a heart attack. I just looked at him and said, "We won't be needing you anymore." and walked out. Haven't gone back to him.

Saw a pic on Facebook last week that said, "God only gives us what we cab handle. God must think I'm a BADASS!

I've had people ask me why they don't see much of my articles these days. Makes me recall when Gerry's work slowed down and I later found out his wife was very ill. When it's your family, you just focus laser intense on surviving the crisis and everything else goes to the back burner.

This officer's negligence and irresponsibility that ultimately put Lisa in the hospital and cost her the job she had hit us especially hard. The few friends I have locally that know most of the truth with us fully understand why I have become a bit grumpy the past few years. Those who didn't care to offer their support, or who decided the news articles were enough to use in forming an opinion about us have been told to pack their happy asses out of our lives, including my brother, my sister, and their families. But, we are getting along okay.

We could certainly do with less drama.

[ April 06, 2014, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 06, 2014, 10:09 AM:
 
Via email: he who cannot be named isn't buying any of it! lol
 

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Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on April 06, 2014, 12:02 PM:
 
You should probably just reinstate him so you can quit being his trained parrot.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on April 06, 2014, 01:18 PM:
 
You should probably just change your email address.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 06, 2014, 01:40 PM:
 
Thanks for the advice. But he don't bother me. If he bothers you guys, tough shit. I fucking banned him, what else do you need?

Good hunting. El Bee (trained parrot)
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 13, 2014, 04:29 AM:
 
Lance, I am sorry things didn't work out for you. Just a minor note, the "only when narcotic" on the script was written by a third person at some point in time.

Jim, as always, thanks for the good words.

Leonard, I don't know what to tell you as far as my gravitation away from this forum, other than talk of shooting my brothers in blue is in direct conflict with my sense of loyalty. I am sure you can understand that.

Take care, fellas.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 13, 2014, 07:30 AM:
 
49, no question I understand why. My hope is to keep the relationship impersonal, call a spade a spade.

my attitude is, cops sign on for the whole nine yards. The citizen deserves superior consideration. We can't have the attitude that ABOVE ALL, THE SAFETY OF THE POLICE IS OUR PRIMARY CONCERN. SO, SHOOT FIRST, LET GOD SORT THEM OUT. (I hope not?)

The objective should be: TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE. PERIOD.

When it comes down to it, police are expen....well not exactly, but the safety of the police officer should NOT trump every other consideration. If otherwise, we don't need them.

I just wish we could keep the issues impersonal. Somehow?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on April 13, 2014, 07:42 AM:
 
Maybe, I've missed something. When did somebody say they want to shoot cops ?

I can see somebody including myself, indicating they possibly would in a self defense scenario. That's just it self defense !!

Somebody correct me if, I'm mistaken.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on April 13, 2014, 10:03 AM:
 
I think 49 may be eluding to my earlier comments on another thread where the discussion turned to the armored assault vehicles being acquired by LEO agencies from the military and I made the statement that these vehicles, as intimidating as they might first appear, have their weaknesses and part of preparing to react to a tyrannical government should involve exploiting those flaws, and I stated that I can't imagine an LEO wanting to be locked down in one of those things when disabled, waiting to die, or the fact that the gunner's "nest" on top has gaps between the protective plates and any good shooter should be able to thread that needle from a long ways off. Maybe it was somewhere else, but my point then was that for almost every advantage the government might bring to bear against us, American citizens, there is a disadvantage if you look closely enough. If push comes to shove, as a matter of self defense- of person, family, community, or Constitution - it's our responsibility to consider these things as part of our pre-planning. Maybe the government expects, and demands, that we sit idly by and just wait to react rather than acting proactively, ergo responsibly, and be prepared to the greatest extent possible. Our own military has reaction plans in place for every possible emergency in the world. We should, as well.

For example, let's say there is a national emergency like a total collapse of the USD or a systemic failure of the power grid. Things are going to get really shitty, really quickly, within 72 hours. I don't expect the government to be of much help at that point. IF this should ever happen ( not saying it will). But, people like me make preparations and are ready to go it alone if we have to, for a time. We make preparations for defense, food, and water. What if the government tries to hand down an Executive Order to collect all firearms in the name of public safety? What if another EO is issued to round up civilians and relocate them to the so-called FEMA Camps? You're prepared and you have everything you need to hold out for, say, six months. You are prepared and it is your preference to stay at home and shelter in place, but the government shows up and tries to force you out of your home at gun point. Do you have the right to refuse to follow that order? Don't you have the right to stay in your home, protect your property, and die doing so if it comes to that? IMO, you do and anyone - LEO's, government agents (same thing), or street thugs - who tries to deprive you of those freedoms is wrong in doing so.

Now, as to 49's reaction to my words, I don't blame him, if he chooses to consider those statements in the general sense. But the world is not a cut and dried place where everything either "is" or "isn't". Wouldn't it be grand if all the guys that looked like "good guys" were actually as they appeared, "good" being a rather subjective term. I recognize and acknowledge that there are those within the LE community who will either defend the citizens and Constitution they're sworn to defend, or they'll follow orders from someone higher up who chooses not to. I know cops who have done things that I refuse to defend. I know medics and firefighters who have done things that I will not defend them for simply because I was one or am an associate of theirs. When the man or woman behind the uni or badge is poisoned and tainted, I owe him or her nothing. If they choose to go outside my rights under the Constitution, it becomes personal - quite personal - and I would never allow them to hide behind the laws they claim to be upholding. If my best friend came to me today and told me that he or she considered the Second Amendment to be outdated and that they didn't like the fact that I was a gun owner and hunter, I would explain to them that I feel bad that our ideologies are so vastly different and that he or she is apparently not the person I thought they were. Then I would ask them to leave and not return. If an LEO who I have known for years does his job on my behalf for all that time, he is my friend and I respect him/ her, and the badge they wear. Now, if that same person comes to knock down my front door and deprive me of my right to self defense without due process because they or the people they take orders from don't think that's my right,... well, I won't be so friendly and bad things might happen. "Just doing my job" won't count at that point. Just my position, and I won't change or apologize for it.

49, if I recall, our attorney advised us that that specific statement may have been written by the officer that headed up this cluster foxtrot during his 45-minute investigation. Doesn't change a thing as far as my wife or the outcome. Our concern, and my point, was that all three meds were written by "the same hand". I appreciate your having this looked at a great deal. Thanks for the clarification.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 13, 2014, 01:25 PM:
 

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49 says: talk of shooting my brothers in blue is in direct conflict with my sense of loyalty.

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