This is topic I'm all on board with the TSS in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 24, 2017, 03:50 PM:
Been running nothing but 2-3/4", a 1-5/8 oz. load of TSS #2 so far this year. Had a shot with it yesterday that just kind of cemented my thoughts on it. That TSS is some coyote killing shit!
Have killed about 20 coyotes with that load in the last month. Most of them, pretty pedestrian stuff, wouldn't have made much difference what load I was using. A few have raised my eyebrows though, dumping coyotes at the long end of shotgun range and dumping coyotes with marginal hits.
But after all the pattern testing this summer and the coyotes killed over the last few weeks, I feel like I have a really good handle on what this stuff can do. So...
Yesterday, had just a face through a hole in the sage brush at 60 yards. Not a really high percentage shot with a shotgun and most loads, in my limited experience and opinion. But with that TSS load, I had absolute confidence in taking it. I mean, I just KNEW that it was going to be a bang flop. And it was.
Skinned him. At 60 yards, that load put 12 pellets in his face and neck, about half of them penetrating the skull and 3 of the neck hits the pellets (looking like new) were against the skin on the back of the neck.
Killed the shit out of that coyote. At 60 yards. But what really sank home, was that I KNEW it was going to. Not a doubt in my mind.
How many loads do you have that confidence in on a 60 yard shot? That's the only one I have...
Big gorgeous male.
Triple I started the day with ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
.
Anyway... Only a month into using TSS on coyote. But that one shot yesterday really did just sort of settle things in my mind. It's some bad ass shotgun fodder!
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 25, 2017, 05:46 AM:
Sounds awesome, Dave.
But, I'm missing something. What exactly is TSS? I honestly can't figure out what it means? Is that a shot size or some exotic alloy?
And, I can't imagine what type of choke puts 12 pellets into what I consider to be about 4 1/2" inches, the face of a coyote, although I can't factor the neck?
For us slow guys. Type slow.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS by the way, I'm jealous, I sure miss what you are doing.
edit: you posted yesterday and nobody has responded? WTF?
[ September 25, 2017, 05:48 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 25, 2017, 06:12 AM:
Leonard, TSS stands for Tungsten Super Shot. It's a tungsten shot, 60% heavier than lead, hard as steel (maybe harder?). Retains energy and penetrates way better than lead. Way better than Hevi-shot too. Like, WAY better than Hevi-shot (Dead Coyote).
Being so dense and hard and having such amazing penetration, allows using much smaller pellets. Which allows having a lot more of them in the payload. They stay round and don't deform in the bore like lead. Which helps with producing absolutely mind blowing patterns. The patterns with this stuff, you have to shoot them and see them yourself to believe them.
All of which translates to lots of pellet strikes on target. Lots of pellet strikes with amazing penetration.
I'm using #2 shot for coyote. Most people consider #2 TSS for coyote extreme overkill. Have a load with #4 that I haven't used on coyote yet but I'm sure it will kill the shit out of them too. That's using 4's, not #4 Buck, but tiny little #4 shot.
Complete game changer for shotgunning coyotes. It's expensive, but I'm hand loading it for a little bit less than you would pay for Dead Coyote factory loads. And these hand loads kick the holy living shit out of Dead Coyote by every standard or measure you want to apply. Just head and shoulders superior to Dead Coyote in every way.
Next spring I think I'm going to get a few guys to go in together and bring in a bulk shipment from China, will bring the cost of hand loading these down to a little over half the cost of Dead Coyote.
Here is a picture of a 70 yard pattern with this load. That's 24 hits in a 10" circle at Seventy Freaking Yards!
If you are bored or have a lot of time to kill, I've written a bunch about my work with TSS over the summer. Some links:
What is TSS shot
TSS coyote load pattern testing
TSS coyote load penetration testing
- DAA
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on September 26, 2017, 01:08 AM:
Damn it Dave now I gotta buy more crap! LOL
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on September 26, 2017, 02:44 AM:
All that "whallop " from a 2-3/4" shell...ya gotta love it!
Man, if I had a bazillion acres of sage flats to call, I'd be all over what Dave is cookin' here! Can recall hunting in Idaho where a shotgun with this capability would have been a much preferred tool, over a rifle. Coyotes were buzzing thru that shit like bees, and we had a real hard time gettin' em shot...
Per his MO that we've all come to enjoy & appreciate, Dave is kind enough to share his trailblazing into new territory.
Thanks, Dave!!!
[ September 26, 2017, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 26, 2017, 06:23 AM:
You got that right, Fred!
Dave just started shotgunning and he's already a trailblazer!
Very interesting, and I see a commercial enterprise for someone. Hard to argue with it.
Dave, you the Man!
Good hunting. ElBee
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on September 26, 2017, 09:17 AM:
That is awsome Dave!
Mark
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 26, 2017, 10:15 AM:
Dave;
How big of patterns are you getting at 20 & 30 yards ????
I look really goofy missing a coyote running by at close range 'cause the pattern hasn't opened up yet.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 26, 2017, 10:27 AM:
Koko, about the same size as every other coyote load I've tried. Haven't actually ever patterned anything at 20 yards, but have done a few at 30. They're tight, but not that much tighter than any other coyote load I've ever tested.
The difference is that the TSS patterns hold together at 40, 50 , 60 and beyond a lot better than any of the others I have ever tested.
But I think how tight they are up close is entirely in the chokes I'm using. Not really a "load" thing at all.
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 26, 2017, 10:37 AM:
Might add though...
I think if you wanted to use a more open choke, and tailor a load for a wide pattern at 30 yards, it would be very easy to do with TSS. And, it would still offer potential advantage over lead via pellet count.
Penetration is not much of an issue at 30 yards. Lead BB is fine at that distance. But TSS #6 would be plenty fine at that distance too. There would be over 200 pellets in 1-1/2 oz load of TSS #6. You could run a cylinder choke and even add a spreader wad and be putting out a crazy wide wall of death at 30 yards with a load that would maintain sufficient pellet density across the whole pattern to kill good at the edges - which could be made to be pretty far apart!
Probably getting a little esoteric, but, you really could do it, easy. And it would just hose them down inside 30. Could almost do it with your eyes close .
- DAA
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 26, 2017, 11:54 AM:
I could maybe shoot better with my eyes closed.
Wouldn't need to yank the trigger & jerk my head up off of the stock to admire the great shot I just.............Hey !! Where's he going ????? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by tedo (Member # 4320) on September 26, 2017, 04:04 PM:
Dave,
What reloader are you using to create these loads? Are special shot cups or wads required? I haven't loaded shot shells forever and traded off the MEC loader and was wondering what type off reloader works if I get back into shot shell reloading.
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on September 26, 2017, 06:15 PM:
Damn, that's impressive Dave!
I'm very nonchalant when in comes to shotgunning coyotes, don't know why?
I love doing it but have never taken it seriously enough to find what works great.
Been known to grab a handful of 6lead and get in tight cover.
Grew up shooting red fox and liked copper plated 2's n bb's.
I maybe shoot 10 coyotes a year with shotgun but now you got me thinking?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 26, 2017, 06:16 PM:
I'm using a Mec Sizemaster. But, all I use it for is the crimps. The rest of the process is like handloading for a centerfire rifle.
I weigh the powder and put it in the hull. Then place the wads in by hand. Then weigh each shot charge and pour them in the wad. Then use the press to crimp them.
Nothing exotic about the wads or anything. Except, I use a mylar wrap inside the shot cup as extra insurance against contacting the barrel with one of those very, very hard pellets.
- DAA
Posted by tedo (Member # 4320) on September 27, 2017, 05:12 AM:
What is cost per pound of the TSS? How many pounds would be required to participate in a bulk buy? Been using #4 buck with fair results and picked up some Federal Heavyweight Coyote BB to try but the TSS peaked my interest.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 27, 2017, 05:58 AM:
That Federal Heavyweight is some mean stuff too. It's 15 gr/cc. Much heavier and harder than lead, about halfway between lead and TSS. In a BB size, it's going to just smash coyote.
I got started down this path when my mentor Bob gave me some hand loads of Federal Heavyweight #2 shot. I killed a handful of coyotes with those loads and was totally hooked on heavier than lead and the advantages of high pellet count.
I would way rather use that Fed. HW BB load than Dead Coyote T. Way rather!
At what I'm paying for TSS now, I'm at about $4.60 per shell to load them.
I can't say what the bulk buy will end up looking like. I have not looked into it real close yet - I do have a couple manufacturers info and some pricing on smaller quantities but haven't got pricing on a big quantity (100 kilos) yet. I won't want to get too many guys involved, just be too much PITA, so the buy in will probably be pretty high. Probably at least $500 each. But really, I don't have any details yet and would rather not start speculating too much. I won't do it at all if we can't make it work for a significant price break, which at smaller quantities it wouldn't be worth it.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 27, 2017, 05:59 AM:
I'm just about like everybody else reading this shit. Seems kinda revolutionary? The problem is, being a skinflint, I have enough #4 Buck to last me several seasons, if I want to restrict my shooting to 40+ yards, which I do, religiously.
But, DAMN! Just the idea of shooting, (and killing) a coyote at 70 yards sounds like a load of horseshit. If Dave says it, I gotta believe it.
Really, it can't be long before somebody, a major player gets into the game. This is awesome stuff!
Imagine loading something like BB's (TSS) and gunning whitetails? The possibilities seem endless?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: I just wanted to mention one thing. I have some 3 1/2" Dead Coyote gathering dust because that shit loosens my fillings. I mean, it's not comfortable, at all to shoot, you know, at game where supposedly you don't notice it? I notice it! Anyway, my question is; with 1 5/8 load of TSS, what kind of recoil are we looking at....and I don't shoot a semi auto?
edit: $4.60 per shell is sobering. Kinda busts my bubble, I think?
[ September 27, 2017, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on September 28, 2017, 11:37 AM:
Dave glad to hear shotgunning and the TSS are both working out for you. If you do end up with that bulk order you can count me in. My shot arrived yesterday and boy does it look nice. Hope to get some stuff tried in a few weeks. Hevi shot has always worked well for me but always willing to try something better.
Brent
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 01, 2017, 06:26 AM:
The testing continues .
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 01, 2017, 09:44 AM:
STOP! STOP! STOP!
This stuff with actually photo results is offensive because I can't get out, at the present time. This teasing is cruel.
Right now is perfect. Northern Nevada, late September, the harvest is as good as it gets.
Oh well, I guess I got my share but it still causes pain, to see those piles. And, not even any night hunting.
Thanks for sharing, Dave. I hate you! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 25, 2017, 01:02 PM:
Just to cheer you up Leonard. Couple weeks ago, the testing goes on...
Actually, only three of those were shotgunned. TSS again. But #4 this time. Not #4 Buck, but teeny tiny little #4 shot.
Nothing very noteworthy about any of the shots. Except, I guess maybe worth mentioning the longest one was a small female, standing still, broadside at 51 yards. Not a remarkable shot, at all. But, considering it was a bang flop, with tiny #4 shot, worth mentioning.
Pic of recovered shot from penetration testing earlier this summer, to give some scale to just how tiny #4 shot really is compared to traditional coyote loads.
Have not been able to get out since the above pile. Can't go this coming weekend either, family stuff to take care of. Maybe the weekend after that if I'm lucky. Hate to see the weeks go by this time of year without getting out after them, but sometimes that is just how the cookie crumbles.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 25, 2017, 04:03 PM:
Good report, Dave!
Posted by Displayed Name (Member # 4669) on December 03, 2017, 12:27 PM:
Always love your projects, this is really interesting work. Hope you guys source out a good connection for bulk shot.
Posted by BangPop (Member # 3876) on December 15, 2017, 06:17 PM:
That's some good stuff there DAA. I've shot my M2 with the sight base for the Delta Point Pro I rigged up and it is some kind of sweet. Hopefully you can see your way to getting yours set up the same next spring. Enjoyed the discussion with you and again if I can offer any dimensions or advise on materials it's yours for the asking. I'm loading up my TSS turkey smashers right now.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 17, 2017, 05:07 AM:
Thanks Tim! I'm getting a Deltapoint Pro for Christmas. So in a couple of months I'll go see the guy I think can make the mount and do the D&T for me. Before then, I'll give you call to go over the numbers again and make sure I have them right!
- DAA
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 17, 2017, 06:31 AM:
Have only killed one at 75 yards she got up and ran another 75 before she did the ass over tea kettle, I think Clint got that one on video on Vimeo somewhere I don't keep up with that stuff. That was using the very overpriced dead coyote with t shot. I think It was not a great hit as she was running when I took the shot a better hit may have dropped her !
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 17, 2017, 08:19 AM:
I believed from get go that I had no business shooting at anything beyond 50 yards. I did observe my partner blast at a coyote at somewhere around 70/75 yards. Coyote ran off like he was shooting blanks. This was the Federal 2 oz copper plated BB's and I still have half of that box.
What it is, is that I'm a lot more into a rifle at 75 yard ranges. I start thinking shotgun when I'm in pretty tight cover.
Of course, having said that, and looking at piles of dead TSS shotgunned coyotes, it calls for reevaluating a few concepts. At least so far as my self imposed 40 yard limitation. But, then again, I don't have this exotic shot, do I?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by BangPop (Member # 3876) on December 17, 2017, 11:13 AM:
Call any time Dave. You must be getting the Honey Do list knocked down to very low levels to rate a Delta Point for Christmas. I figured as many coyotes as you bring to hand there would be no way that you would be in that good of shape with the wife unit. . When you call remind me to offer some screws that I bought for the job. Bought 25 and used 2.
[ December 17, 2017, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: BangPop ]
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on December 25, 2017, 06:35 AM:
When I asked Dave about 20 ga he put me on 'the guy' who in turn,put me on Apex.Interesting site some may enjoy.410ing coyotes anyone???
https://apexmunition.com/
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