The New Huntmastersbbs!: What is the process to have a bolt gun built?

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Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on January 08, 2014, 08:52 AM:

My brother is telling me that a .17-204 is what I should try for coyotes. So I'm wondering what I need to do to get it built. My thoughts are using a Benchmark barrel as they are local to me or a Lilja as that's what he has and he likes it. I have a Tikka t3 in .243, will that work as a donor action? Any suggestions for length, twist, contour? This would be for a calling rifle.

Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on January 08, 2014, 09:41 AM:

Money is the key to making it work.

I would use a rifle with a smaller boltface. Preferably a used 204 Ruger. That way you have a magazine setup with the 17-204 cartridge boltface, mag and follower already setup.

I hear a lot of good about Lilja barrels. I had one Lilja chambered up in 17 Mach IV for a friend, and it is a shooter, ask Vic, he is the present owner. Shilen and Pacnor worked well for me too.

I suggest that you do your homework on the gunsmith you will use. In my experience, if they tell you 3-6 months, triple it and then just patiently wait. Some on the other hand are very quick.

[ January 08, 2014, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]

Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on January 08, 2014, 09:49 AM:

I personally like a #3 or 4 contour at 24" long and I would get a 1-9 twist, not a 1-10. A Rem 700 type action, and a good stock. You can go Rem 700, or Stiller, or other custom action depending on your wants and money situation, same as a McMillan stock. I personally like the McMillan in the hunter config, similar to the Sako stock.

Right now my 17-204 is a Factory CZ527 17 Varmint rechambered to 17-204 and it shoots great. That could be the most practical way to go, but they are getting harder to find and costly, like the older Rem 700 17 Rem sporters. I believe CZ makes a better factory barrel than the Remington. Again just my opinion.

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 08, 2014, 10:42 AM:

Agree.
Stick with a Lilja in the .172 flavor
#3 or 4, 24-26"...longer if ya wanna eeek out the speed.
1:9 twist, fo' sho'

Skip the 'one size fits all' Tikka action to build on, IMHO. It's a nice piece, but if I'm throwing a long bolt, the rifle is gonna be chambered in a long action cartridge.
The 243 case uses a .473" boltface, too big to run a 17/204 on. You need a .378" boltface, so look for a donor rifle chambered in .223, 17Rem, .204 etc., so you can use the same bolt.

Good luck & have fun!

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on January 08, 2014, 11:28 AM:

Just a heads up concerning the Tikka or non Mauser Sakos. The barrel threads are metric and some gunsmiths can't or won't buy the equipment to convert their lathes to cut them.

Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on January 08, 2014, 12:35 PM:

does your brother have enough bullets that he'll share with you. Good .172 coyote killing bullets are real hard to come by these days.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 08, 2014, 01:55 PM:

Yeah, time to question the recommendation.

As far as I am concerned, a 17/204 might not cover every and all coyote hunting applications. What it is, is a good choice for someone primarily interested in recovering pelts.

Also, it is a bit of an expert's cartridge and someone needs to understand the limitations....including, as mentioned, suitable bullets.

So, while a rifle chambered in 17/204 is useful, there are other choices, depending on what you are trying to accomplish.

For my money, really serious coyote calibers begin with 22-250 and 55 grain bullets. Others may have a different opinion, but this is just like the friend's suggestion, everybody has an opinion.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on January 08, 2014, 03:02 PM:

No argument from me LB, but he sounded like he was set on a 17-204. The 17-204 is one of my favorite coyote cartridges too.

He already has a 243, which IMO is a hard cartridge to beat for killing coyotes and small game. Heck, George Garner from GAP has already shown that a fast twist 243 can take you out to 1000 yards for competitions. I'm sure that a good 243 in the right hands can put coyotes down further than most people are capable of.

If I were to start over, and didn't like the 17's so much and didn't already have a few thousand bullets on the shelf, I might build another 22-250AI or 6XC or such.

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on January 08, 2014, 03:28 PM:

Although I don't have any personal experience with a 17-204, I've heard stories, and not all of them are good. The bullet availability question would be a big concern to me too.

Were I in your shoes, and felt the need to build something, I'd stay within the 6MM variance, even if it's just to Ackleyize what you already have. THAT will kill coyotes better than the best 17-204 money can buy. If you get joy from saving fur, excuse my interruption. If you like making coyotes dead from here to there, my suggestion has merit.

Rifle builds are like many vices, they can run from quite affordable, to Holy shit, depending on preferences.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on January 08, 2014, 04:26 PM:

I do get joy from saving fur, that's the reason I want to try this caliber.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 08, 2014, 05:05 PM:

Okay, fair enough. What would you say is your personal level of experience? Enough to limit and the discretion to take only high percentage shots?

Anyway, getting back to the build.

1) you need to decide on someone to do the work

2) you need to decide on an action

3) pick a barrel maker, and pay particular attention to twist, length and contour

4) Order your stock, the sooner, the better. Stock can have solid fill, lite foam, or hollow.

5) Decide on color options

6) consider trigger options

7) get your brass ordered, bullets and seek opinions on suitable powders

8) Now wait. And wait.

In my experience, the whole process can take a year, before load development and you are actually killing with it.

Good hunting. El Bee

[ January 08, 2014, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 08, 2014, 05:12 PM:

And, this is why, my last urge, I decided on cash and carry. Bought an estate sale ready made rifle and have been especially happy with it.

Good luck, LB

edit: completely custom build right down to the Hart barrel(s) and the jewel trigger
Edit: have been told; I stole it!

[ January 08, 2014, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on January 08, 2014, 05:30 PM:

You know, something just crossed my mind and while hijacking is illegal most of the time...

I shot a 17Rem several years ago for a while and just never developed the love for 17s that some folks have. Yep, it's fast. Yep, recoil is non-existent. I just never could understand what separates 17s from 223s in the cultists. Pretty much same effective range, regardless of what follows 17, add Ackley, 204, 223 etc. Pretty much the same in fur friendliness with the right combination. Is it just the idea of killing something with a BB sized projectile. Seriously, what's the overwhelming attraction?

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 08, 2014, 05:41 PM:

You KNOW the answer. It's a religion. You have to believe.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: hijacking is never illegal on Huntmasters.

[ January 08, 2014, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on January 08, 2014, 05:53 PM:

I don't know that I can answer your questions.

Some guys like scotch, some like bourbon. I personally hate cold coffee, but feel the need for hot coffee in the morning.

Maybe Vic or DAA will answer it. Heck some people even went to a 14 cal. Idunno!

Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on January 08, 2014, 09:18 PM:

You might get the ball rollin' by looking for a new or used Rem 700 in .17 Rem, 204 or .223. The 700 is common, affordable, and easy for a gunsmith to work with. You could always use that until your ready to start the build.

I'd put a lot of thought into how you want the rifle to handle and pack. Do you walk a lot on an average day calling? Are your shots often longer or up close and personal? You can make all the choices on stock design, barrel length, barrel contour, and overall rifle weight along with if you want SS or Chrome Moly. Hopefully it will all come together and create a perfect rifle just for you and your style of hunting.

Lots of decisions and kind of fun to do, but it can seem a bit overwhelming and money can fly away by the wallet full if you let it.

Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on January 09, 2014, 03:44 AM:

good choice for a build Aaron. i too was sceptical about the .17 cal. thing but now with well over 100 coyotes kilt with the 2 i have all i can say is WOW...
I know some (most) here will not believe me and 3 years ago, i would have been in the same boat, but i've seen more bang/flops, face in the dirt dead coyotes with my 17-204's than the hundreds of coyotes i've killed with 22-250's and .243. those are the facts boys. take it how you will.
hell, i don't even bring out the other 2 rifles anymore.
bullet selection IS KEY!!!.
i talked with Chan Nagel 2 weeks and he's hoping to be building bullets in 6-8 months. they are coyote slaying sumbitches [Wink]

member DiYi and i have had Kevin Weaver do our recent smithing.
he likes to use Hi-Tech stocks. i don't have them on mine but DiYi does and they are superbly comfortable. my next build will have one.
Lilja is also my choice. 1/9 twist..
i actually prefer the savage action over the rem.action.
other notable smiths would be Bob Greene or Greg Tannel (sp).
1 year wait time seems to be par for the course.

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 09, 2014, 06:03 AM:

Jim, one of the big differences between the .17's I like and a .223, is trajectory. Just run the numbers on point blank range for a 4" target using a bullet with BC of .27 doing 4100 fps vs. any .223 load you want.

Might also be interesting to compare energy downrange, that .27 BC is a 30 gr., 4100 fps, compare it to a 50 or 55 gr. .223 load at 200 yards. You might be surprsied by those numbers.

-----------------------
Edited slightly to not sound quite so much like a .17 honk... I'm really not one to talk anyone into any of this stuff. And, for that matter, haven't used a .17 on coyotes for two years now myself. Going to again soon though, just for fun.

- DAA

[ January 09, 2014, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: DAA ]

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on January 09, 2014, 07:10 AM:

Man what a differance a barrel makes on a 17-204.
Last season I had a Shilen crome moly 9 twist chambered 17-204. I called it the 17 paintball as 1/2 the coyotes I shot with it splashed with 30gr Kindler golds. Even pulled the barrel and rechambered to try and remove any of the fried area...No joy. That barrel was then junked.

Fast forward order a 9 twist Lilja and used the same reamer to chamber this barrel. Shot quite a few coytoes with this one and have had the excellant results like you read about. Have had several broadside coyotes that the 30gr passed thru. Still found all the coyotes.
Been selling coyotes on the cobb this year and the buyer really like what he sees from the 17-204...

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on January 09, 2014, 07:27 AM:

Those are valid points, Dave. Thanks for the interjection. I guess I was just considering my real world experience (or lack thereof) with that off the shelf rifle, running factory fodder. To be fair, it was a right handed model, and the reach over for a lefty was probably the most aggravating factor. I probably could have never given it a fair shake under those circumstances.

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on January 09, 2014, 08:55 AM:

If guy is patient, you can probably cut your time waiting on a gunsmith in half, as well eliminating those monthly phone calls, where you just know he is gonna bullshit you and leave you aggravated.
Cruise over to the Saubier website, look at their classified section daily, and I'd bet within a month or so, you'll see something close to what your looking for pop up for sale. Those guys love small caliber stuff and are constantly moving new builds to finance future builds.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 09, 2014, 01:27 PM:

Some damned good input, Aaron. Maybe hundreds of years of actual experience talking to ya.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on January 09, 2014, 05:16 PM:

quote:
Cruise over to the Saubier website, look at their classified section daily, and I'd bet within a month or so, you'll see something close to what your looking for pop up for sale. Those guys love small caliber stuff and are constantly moving new builds to finance future builds.

That's the truth. I've probably sold close to a half dozen 17's, just sold the 17 Mach IV over there.

Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on January 09, 2014, 05:38 PM:

Kelly, what was the problem with that barrel? Was it new when you chambered it?
I remember all the issues, but I never heard why..?
I've been real happy with my Shilen. Of course, I bought mine because that's what he was selling and the price was right.

I also don't regret going "short" (22") ...it's plenty fast and balances nice.

Posted by jbmartin (Member # 651) on January 09, 2014, 05:54 PM:

I also agree on bullet selection.
Glad to hear Nagel will be building some, must be some extra jackets hitting the market.

If you already have an AR, you could just have an upper made in 17rem or 17-204.

I would also say that when a 223 should be limited to 150 yards, that is spot on. In my opinion you can double that for a 17rem.

This is who built mine for me. The one I got has a sleeved and tensioned barrel and is very, very accurate.

http://www.stockadegunstocks.com/index.html

Edit: Sorry I forgot the first question about it being a bolt gun after reading the replies. Kevin builds most of his on Savage actions and has a variety of his stocks to choose from. The only thing I would stay away from is an Accu-Trigger. Those and gloves don't play well together sometimes.

JBM

[ January 09, 2014, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: jbmartin ]

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on January 10, 2014, 03:37 AM:

quote:
I would also say that when a 223 should be limited to 150 yards, that is spot on.

You have to take into account, I have only killed a few itty bitty AZ coyotes with my .223s, and there have been 1 or 2 that would argue that limit.

Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on January 10, 2014, 04:34 AM:

I'd never use a Smith you don't know well yourself or who's work you haven't seen and preferably used yourself.At least actually picked it up,looked it over,etc.
And,if there's any chance at all try meet in person and go over exactly what you want with him.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on January 10, 2014, 06:20 AM:

I talked to benchmark, they said they pretty much wouldn't do a .17. Said its too hard to lap, have to constantly clean them, hard to find cleaning tools and supplies. Its too bad, I really wanted to try one of their barrels as they are fairly close to me.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on January 10, 2014, 06:25 AM:

Anyway, where I'm at now is I want to build this off a Tikka action so I'm looking for a T3 .204 or .223. Another question is, is there any way to get the bolt lift to 60* like a sako trg using a T3 action? My cousin has a sako trg and I really like the quickness of it.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 10, 2014, 06:42 AM:

The only thing I have heard about short bolt lifts, in general is they lack mechanical advantage and can be extremely difficult to open with warm to hot loads. Other than than, it's a Ford/Chevy question on Tikkas. Don't they have a sloppy removable recoil lug? Anyway, I'm not much of a fan, Tikka or Browning, stick to Remington.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on January 10, 2014, 06:46 AM:

Duck - It was a brand new barrel from Shilen. I am not sure what the issue was with that 1st barrel. IF I can find someone close with a .17 cal borescope I am going to check it out. It had to have a rough spot in it somewhere. After I rechambered, that barrel would poof 25gr Bergers running 3900. Only about half of them would make the target. So I pulled the barrel and bought a .20 cal barrel off the site Vic suggested in October of 2012. Rented a 204AI reamer cause folks told me it was a waste of time to AI a 204. For me I found it to be a good deal. It will run a 40gr Berger at 4100 without issues. Currantly I am shooting a 38gr Unmussig bullet that DAA turned me on to. I like how it works in the 204AI. Also if I had the 17-204 reamer to do again, I would have made it an AI....I hate to trim brass.
Little long winded, sorry bout that.
Kelly

edit to add. Just got 1200 .224 80grAmax in. Should have a barrel chambered and screwed on this weekend for a real fire breather...lol

[ January 10, 2014, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on January 10, 2014, 07:41 PM:

Are they making A-Maxes again? Dan said they would by the end of the year.

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on January 10, 2014, 09:09 PM:

found some in an out of the way spot.

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 11, 2014, 03:27 AM:

Midway is allowing us to back order the 75 Amax's again. That has been a sign of they're in the works on other things.

Kelly, Billy is wanting another 204 and was quizzing me on the 204ai. I told him I didn't think it'd be worth it, clearly I was wrong. Tell me more...

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on January 11, 2014, 06:51 AM:

Tom call me. If Billy is still shooting a AR, I got a 204 upper that Danny built. I would sell it.

On the 204AI pretty straight forward. Got some Norma brass, loaded my old load of H4895 with 35gr to fireform. Then worked up to 29.5grs with 40gr Bergers. Shot that combo last year and it worked pretty good. Talked to Dave a bit about what he was shooting in his 20-250 and he said the 38gr Ummussig. That bullet with a 26" 9 twist Pacnor has worked real good for me so far, but you know me I seem to be able to find a hole in most things. lol.

[ January 11, 2014, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on February 25, 2014, 03:44 PM:

Moving forward with this, I dropped off the donor with the smith today. Anyone know where to find a .17-204 reamer to rent?

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 25, 2014, 05:52 PM:

"White Rock Tool & Die", use to rent reamers and gauges for a very reasonable fee, seems like they are located somewhere in the North West. I'm sure a google search is in order. I have had good luck with "Clymer" reamers but it's been a few years since I've bought anything from them, maybe they rent(?).

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 25, 2014, 07:16 PM:

Aaron,

White Rock Tool and Die. (Reamer Rentals)
6400 N. Brighton Ave.
Kansas City, Mo. 64119
No Phone number found in the paperwork I have on hand.

Clymer Manufacturing (Reamers Made to Order)
1645 West Hamlin Road.
Rochester Hills Mich, 48309-3312 USA
(248) 853-5555

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on February 26, 2014, 08:57 AM:

Thanks Mike.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on July 20, 2014, 09:35 PM:

After a disaster with PTG, I got the correct reamer and now its time to bring the rest of the parts to the smith. I bought a Douglas 9 twist barrel with Atlasworx bottom metal and a B&C stock. Hope to have it back before the season starts. Anyone care to share some load data?

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 21, 2014, 01:47 PM:

Aaron, look on accurateloading.com I haven't any personal info to share or I would but ignore any and all maximum loads, at least until to know what you have ie: headspace, OAL, bullet construction etc. Pay attention to your fired cases, a Sharpie marker can be your best friend! number each case and record for record each and every round you fire at least until you find the right load(s) that you work up. Buy a chronograph if you don't have one and take the time to use it. Don't be afraid to ask here for help I have read some very good solid info here and personally appreciate every ones input.

Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on July 23, 2014, 08:49 PM:

Aaron,
My load work started and ended with Big Game powder.I got the speed and accuracy I was looking for with BG, so I haven't tried anything else.

If you run BG, I think I'd start somewhere around 25 and work up. But, be cautious as you work up.
I know Dave(Bucks) and I were running real close to the same load, without showing any of the "normal" pressure signs, but primer pockets were going to shit fast.
So,...no hard fast rule here, but I think I'd consider 28g of BG a max load.
I was running a little hotter than that, but I was also only getting 2-3 loads out of Norma brass too. Was it the Norma brass? I don't know...

I did recently buy some Nosler 204 brass, but I also backed off of that load too, so I guess I'll never know. The Nosler brass sure LOOkS good though! [Smile]

As a matter of fact, just today, I loaded up a handful of the recently backed down load so I could take them to the range to see how they grouped and to see if they printed the same as the faster load so I could just hunt through the transition without having to re-site...
They did... [Smile]

I run moly bullets in this rig, so I'm not real big on cleaning it. This tube has over 200 shots through it and I've never cleaned it.

That's a 5 shot group and if it weren't for the one off to the left, it would be the best group I've shot out of that rifle.
I'll take it! [Wink]

[ July 23, 2014, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Duckdog ]

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 24, 2014, 03:36 AM:

Aaron, I also load Big Game, but for the slightly less capacious, .17Predator. It performs most excellently...

Have fun & be safe!!!

[ July 24, 2014, 03:36 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on July 24, 2014, 05:30 AM:

Thanks guys.

Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on July 24, 2014, 07:20 AM:

Aaron, I noticed this morning that I left out a very important consideration..., Bullet weight!
All I've shot is 30g Golds, so all of the above information is for those.
You might have assumed that, but that's the trouble with getting your information off of the internet.
Ask questions! [Wink]

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on July 24, 2014, 05:00 PM:

Thanks again Duck, we are using the 30's also.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 08, 2014, 01:43 PM:

After 2.5 months, our guns are done. Going to pick them up today.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 08, 2014, 01:59 PM:

Not too bad, January to October. I have always said, by the time you work up a decent load, one of these builds requires a year incubation period.

That's why I didn't have the interest in it, this last time and I couldn't be more pleased in buying a rifle from an estate of a real hard core "anal type" who took notes on range cards for every round fired. It's as good as any of my custom jobs, two shilen barrels and a jewel trigger, (almost as good anyway, plenty good enough for coyotes) and it was instant gratification.

But, everybody gets the bug and dreams of a custom rig with just the right specs, sooner or later. Kinda been there, done that. Not that I am completely cured, I don't think there is one?

Good luck with your new DEATH RAY, Aaron.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 08, 2014, 09:52 PM:

Here it is. Tikka T3 trued, Douglas barrel 26 inches, 9 twist, Atlasworx bottom metal, bolt handle and shroud, Bell & Carlson stock, Kahles 3.5-10x50. Total weight as shown is 9lbs 6oz.

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on October 09, 2014, 04:48 AM:

I can dig that rifle!!!
Best of luck & have fun with it...

Posted by 92soggy (Member # 4362) on October 09, 2014, 11:27 AM:

Here is the other one.
Trued Rem 700
Lilja #4 fluted and finished at 26"
Timney trigger
Weaver 4-20x50

Posted by 92soggy (Member # 4362) on October 09, 2014, 11:45 AM:

Some load testing with H414 and IMR3031, the velocity was around 4k max because that's all the higher I had loaded, could definitely go higher.

Forgot to mention we are using 30 grainers from Black Hole Bullets in Idaho.

[ October 09, 2014, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: 92soggy ]

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on October 09, 2014, 01:40 PM:

Nice rifles guys, great groups also. I haven't loaded for your caliber but have used H414/WW760 a bit, I always found best grouping and lowest velocity spreads using a compressed load. I'm not saying H414 will be the best powder for you, just a tip if it's suitable. Keep your barrels clean and enjoy.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 09, 2014, 07:54 PM:

I use a lot of H414, mostly 22 and 24 caliber.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: many years ago, my first 25'06Ackley, built by P.O. Ackley, I used W760 usually with 100 gr. Sierra bullets. In my third 25'06, I discovered R22, and 100 gr. Ballistic Tips. Yeowser! Good for 200 FPS more than W760.

Good hunting. El Bee

[ October 09, 2014, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 10, 2014, 03:09 AM:

Big Game or N550 might be worth considering in that chambering.

- DAA

Posted by 92soggy (Member # 4362) on October 10, 2014, 02:07 PM:

We have been searching for big game for months and have yet to find any, so with coyote season fast approaching, we figured we better get out there and try some other powders.

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on October 10, 2014, 10:55 PM:

RL15 and Varget with the 30 grain Kinders have worked very well in my .17 Tactical.

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 11, 2014, 10:33 AM:

That's the shits you can't find any Big Game. It's been a real winner in the large capacity .17's with 30's for a lot of rifles.

I'm kind of low on it, myself, now that I think about it. If I only use it for coyotes, which I think I will, I can get by a few more years at least, on what I have though.

I have a lot more N550, but I use it in several other rifles as well, including my working load for my 6/284 that I use for coyotes and a .22-250AI that I use for 'chucks. Probably have about eight pounds of it, but would feel better having another eight pounds...

That N550 is another winner in the Big Seventeens too.

- DAA

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 11, 2014, 10:56 AM:

Damn! I don't have 8 pounds of anything except for some unpredictable #2700. I guess I'm sort of a piker on stocking up?

But, have noticed that ammo is becoming more available. Not rimfire, but stuff I use, 44Mag, 45ACP, 40S&W, 32auto, 38Spl. and 25ACP. That's all I shoot. Seems like I can get all I want?

Bullets are a problem, right now. This bullshit about non-lead is idiotic. Lead is everywhere, abundant, contamination is a sick joke. I won't be buying copper bullets. The thing is, it's ridiculous! How many 22rf rifles are out there that use lead bullets? We always cave in to the radicals.

Like, another pet peeve of mine. (I seem to have many?) They won't ship kangaroo boots to The People's Republik! That's been a stupid useless law for 40 years, at least. No logic to it whatsoever. I don't know that I need kangaroo boots but fail to see how lawmakers caved in to bunny huggers over some mysterious threat?

But, they always win. We are always on the defense, trying to be reasonable. I say: Fuck 'em!

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on October 11, 2014, 12:37 PM:

Yeah, lead free sucks.
Mark

Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on October 11, 2014, 12:43 PM:

92, I have just over 1/2lb of Big Game. I don't even know why I have it. I will gladley do some trading.....any imr4198? I gotta make some room for all these other 8lb kegs....lol

Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on October 11, 2014, 12:48 PM:

LB,
Any idea on the reasoning (as if they need one) for the kangaroo ban?
Is kangaroo known to cause cancer in California? [Wink]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 11, 2014, 01:44 PM:

No, it's a animal cruelty issue! Australia shoots them for friggin' dog food, they are no where near endangered, and Australia is very militant on other indigenous wildlife, especially birds. No export of hook bills, at all; for instance. That's code for parrots, for you avian challenged individuals.

The single reason why I never eat at Jack in The Box is because many many years ago, there was a big scandal where they were caught using kangaroo meat in their hamburgers. I guess it was a mistake but the point is, they sell this stuff for pet food and there is no justification for outlawing boots made with kangaroo leather. Which, by the way, is said to be the lightest and strongest available?

I know many years ago, in HS when I ran track, the big deal, before nylon track spikes was kangaroo leather track shoes. I guess the edge was lighter shoes = run faster?

No, it was billed as a SAVE THE POOR KANGAROOS campaign. More Liberal lies.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by 92soggy (Member # 4362) on October 11, 2014, 06:31 PM:

CrossJ, I don't have any 4198 but i would be willing to trade for any other powders I have. Here's a list that I have.

Win WST
Imr 3031
Benchmark
H 322
H 335
H 4895
8208 XBR
Ramshot TAC
RL-15
H 380
H 414
Norma MRP

I guess my next question is, can a guy just ship this stuff around legally? Anyone else want to trade for Big Game or N 550?

Posted by 92soggy (Member # 4362) on October 11, 2014, 06:37 PM:

Good advice UTcaller, I went out and shot this group that measured .113 with RL-15 today.
Unfortunately, the chrono wasn't working, so didn't get a velocity on it.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 12, 2014, 07:08 AM:

Yeah, that's enough testing.

Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on October 12, 2014, 07:39 AM:

Yep. I'd remove the Reloder 15 from my trading list. Nice shooting!

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 12, 2014, 07:46 AM:

Damn............I couldn't shoot a group that good if I taped the target to the end of the barrel.

[Eek!]

Posted by 92soggy (Member # 4362) on October 12, 2014, 08:16 AM:

Thanks guys! It's the best group I've ever shot for sure

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on October 12, 2014, 09:33 AM:

92soggy,

That is a great group. Yeah that RL15 is great powder for sure.I started using it when Blaine Eddy recommended it to me a few years back when i first got my 17 Remington it worked great with the 25 grain Berger Match bullets. Then I built my 17 Tactical and it worked great with the 30 grain Kindlers too. So I gave it a shot with my New .22-250 Ackley Improved and low and behold it shoots great groups with both the 55 and 60 grain Berger bullets.So that has really simplified my powder usage. I have gotten very good velocities With it too.

Good Hunting Chad

Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on October 12, 2014, 09:50 AM:

I've shot some incredible groups with R-15 out of my 22/250. Most definitely my "go to" powder in that chambering.

One of these days, (probably when I don't have any, or can't find any Big Game), I'm going to try it in my 17/204.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 18, 2014, 09:19 PM:

Well, not sure what my next step is. Having some big problems with mine. Brief run down, very first shot out of the rifle produced a pierced primer with 25gr TAC. I then went to varget figuring that the TAC must have been too hot. I shot 8 rounds of varget and maxed out at 26gr with a velocity of roughly 4000. Wasn't fast as I wanted it to be so I headed home and dumped the rest I had loaded and started with some different powders. While I was doing that my brother says he ran the TAC on quickload and it came up with 49000 something, so it should have been fine. Next shooting session with all different powders produced some hot loads and some good to go loads but the hot loads would be in the same powder charge groups. As in, for example, 27.5gr 414 would shoot one hot and two with no signs or two hot and one with no pressure signs, all under max based on quickload. All along I was getting the feeling that something was weird. Now I started thinking maybe I'm not cleaning enough. So when I cleaned it this time I used a brush and scrubbed it good. 3rd session of shooting went just like it was supposed to go, started with my low loads and worked up till I saw pressure signs then stopped. So now I'm thinking I must have had some fouling in the barrel in the previous sessions or a piece of something in the barrel. This time I brought it home and gave it the wipeout treatment, once for an hour and the patch came out dirty so I hit it again and let it sit overnight. Patched it out and still dirty, hit it again for 2 hours and came out pretty clean. I'm thinking now I got it figured out, my next session will be good again. In the meantime, I got a new scope mount and put it on so before I went to testing loads I fired a few sighting in rounds, got it sighted close enough for testing and shot my first three. First one didn't hit the target and no one knew where it went. I figured I must not have been sighted in like I thought. Next one hit bullseye and third one didn't hit anything. A friend was watching and he says I think your bullets are disintegrating. I said seriously? He said I think so. Tried the next group and shot two, went from 3800 to 4100 with the same powder charge with none hitting the target. Went to a even lower load of varget and tried a couple more, one was nice, second one had to really work to get the bolt open and the primer was gone. I guess this didn't end up very brief and there is more detail than this but all along I felt that something didn't seem quite right. I never broke 4000 except on the renegade loads which would go from safe to way over pressure from one shot to the next. Just real erratic. All my loads were well under quickload max (which I realize is a guideline). So now instead of keep on trying, it finely got bad enough that I'm quitting until I find out whats going on.

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 19, 2014, 05:32 AM:

Your bolt might need to be bushed, (GreTan) a common problem with 223 sized cases it seems. TAC is a good powder in 223 and 204, should work in 17's too.

RL15 is a great powder, I use it in 7-08, 243ai, 308, 22-250 AI and a few more calibers. It always gives great velocity and accuracy.

Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on October 19, 2014, 06:34 AM:

quote:
RL15 is a great powder, I use it in 7-08, 243ai, 308, 22-250 AI and a few more calibers. It always gives great velocity and accuracy.

I use it in the 22-250AI, 7-08, and my 223's with the heavy bullets, plus some others too.

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 19, 2014, 01:05 PM:

Something is rotten in there, for sure.

Pierced/cratered primers are one thing. But poofs out of a new barrel with fairly pedestrian velocities are something else altogether.

They could well be related - pressure is velocity and velocity is pressure. But... Something is causing those bullets to come apart and that is where I'd concentrate effort.

Remind me again, .17-204. It's a 9 twist? Barrel maker? Bullets you are using?

How does a tight dry patch in a dry clean barrel feel? Especially in the throat?

Nasty chambering burr would be a long shot at this point, with some rounds and vigorous cleaning already having happened. But if there is still one there, you'll feel it with the tight patch.

I'd spend some time with those tight patches, get a real good feel for the entire length of the bore. Note any tight spots and especially anything that feels grabby or like it's catching.

My money would be on a bore condition of some sort, to include just a bad bore or a big screw up of some sort in the chambering job. Something upsetting the integrity of those jackets enough to cause poofs out of a new barrel at reasonable velocities for the chambering.

Impossible to say from here though. That's just what I think I'd start with, given the symptoms as I think I understand them.

- DAA

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 19, 2014, 01:06 PM:

A P.S...

I don't think bushing the pin will help with the poofs, but, I consider it SOP for any hot rod on the .223 case, as Tom mentioned.

All mine are...

- DAA

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 19, 2014, 01:36 PM:

I totally missed the "poofs" just saw the pierced primer with sane pressures.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 19, 2014, 02:14 PM:

.17-.204, 9 twist chromoly Douglas, 30gr Blackhole bullets. Until this last session they were all hitting the target at least with really good accuracy, lots of groups .5 or under with the best being .262. Things went from bad to mediocre to good to bad to very bad at the last session. Just was always getting weird pressure signs from the same powder charge, same load from shot to shot. I know all guns aren't the same even if the same reamer is used but in this case, the other gun in this thread is basically identical and he has no problems whatsoever. You would have to ask him to be sure but I believe he has gone 4200+ and his aren't coming apart. Dry clean barrel the patches go in nice with a little resistance in the throat. After it has been shot a few times and I try running a wet patch of Butch's down, it is so tight as to almost force it down the throat then gets easier each time until the next time it has been fired a few times.

[ October 19, 2014, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Rhoades ]

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 19, 2014, 02:22 PM:

Hardly seems possible on such a new barrel, but your last two sentences sound an awful lot like a carbon ring.

How many rounds on the barrel now?

I'm throwing darts, don't really know what's happening, but I'd clean the bejeezus out of the throat area. Work it with some JB or Remclean until you can't feel that initial restriction anymore. A little catchy/grabby is normal after it starts to fire crack, but on a new barrel, that transition into the throat should feel pretty smooth on a tight patch.

Like I said, I don't know, just guessing. But right now, I'm guessing there is something not so great going on in that throat.

- DAA

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 19, 2014, 02:29 PM:

I know not exact and I should be taking notes but I haven't been for the reason that everything I tried, nothing was consistent, except that nothing worked. So with that said, 100 rounds max, I'm thinking 80 plus or minus 10. From the beginning shot till now, I have 3 pierced primers and 3 blown primers, probably 10 with excessive pressure(hard bolt lift-ejector marks) and 15-20 with milder pressure signs.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 19, 2014, 02:33 PM:

Just eliminating things but in my mind it has to be something forward of the primer. They all chamber fine, haven't had one yet that had resistance on chambering. With the pressure and now the bullets coming apart, there has to be n obstruction in the barrel somewhere, am I right? Thanks for the help Dave, I'll get to work on that.

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 19, 2014, 02:45 PM:

Obstruction is not how I'd describe it. An obstruction would make for a blown up rifle.

But it does sound like there is something in the barrel that is messing with the bullet jackets bad enough that some of them are blowing up in the air.

I'm purely guessing that it is only peripherally related to the blanked primers.

It could be something removable, or fixable. But it could also just be a duff barrel. Pretty rare with customs, but it does happen and something like the .17-204 won't tolerate anything less than an excellent barrel and chambering job.

After you've cleaned the holy hell out of it and go shoot it again, I'd be curious as to how many rounds before you clean and how much copper you get out of it.

For comparison sake, the Lilja on my .17 Predator, I usually only clean it once or twice a season. After 40 - 50 rounds at ~4100 fps I only get a hint of blue after letting it soak 24 hours with Wipeout. It basically collects no copper at all. Same for my other Lilja .17 barrels and it's one of the big reasons I always recommend them to new .17 guys just having their first one built.

I have one ChroMo Douglas, it's a .22BR that I used to use for prairie dogs when I used to shoot them. Accurate as all hell, but it has copper fouled moderately bad since the day it was born. After 100 rounds or so, it has a LOT of copper in it. I started shooting Danzac coated pills in it to help, and that does help, but it sill gets quite a bit of copper built up over 100 rounds.

I have another .22BR with a Lilja, that can go 200 rounds and not have nearly as much fouling - it cleans up quick and easy.

I honestly doubt that fouling is your issue. But, it's worth paying attention to and eliminating it at least. You honestly should not get enough blue out of that barrel to be worth mentioning after say 15 shots.

- DAA

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 19, 2014, 07:47 PM:

I had an idea, painted up the bullets on six rounds and ran them through the gun. I think you are right Dave, massive carbon ring. In an earlier post I said there was no resistance, must have been, I just couldn't feel it. Anyone see anything else?

[ October 19, 2014, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Rhoades ]

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on October 19, 2014, 09:15 PM:

Aaron it sounds like you have a Carbon Fouling problem causing the "poofs" or have a bad crown. And after looking at your pics, it looks to me like you are bumping the case shoulders and maybe causing a headspace problem which can and will spike pressures and blow primers. If you have some virgin 204 brass try sizing a lubed case with some powdered graphite on the inside of the case neck. Back your sizing die out enough to barely start the necking down process, raise the arm on your press and screw the die in a quarter turn increment, then try loading the brass in your rifle, the bolt shouldn't close yet, but check it anyways. Neck down in quarter turn die increments and check your progress until your bolt will only close part way. Then progress slowly, in say 1/8" turn of the die, sizing and checking until the bolt will only close with a small amount of force from you then stop. You have now set your minimum headspace.
Be extra careful about bumping the shoulders of your brass, it's not needed.

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 20, 2014, 04:40 AM:

Looks like you could be getting somewhere! Be nice if a good dooshing is all it needs. Once that carbon gets ironed in it can be a massive bitch to get it out though. If you don't have any JB, get some and worth the bejeezus out of the throat area with it. I like to use an over size patch wrapped around a worn bore brush for JB'ing.

I think you might be able to get it with lots of Wipeout soak time, but I'm talking like a week of it and even then some of the really fire hardened stuff will probably still be there.

If you aren't using it already, Lock Ease might help in the future.

- DAA

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 20, 2014, 06:10 AM:

Mike, you are right, I am setting the shoulders back at each loading. A fired case from this gun measures 1.555 using a comparator so I set them back to 1.553. Now, what I understand about headspace is that you want some room to move but not too much so as not to wear the brass out or worse, causing separation. I also understood that it doesn't need to be set each time but I figured setting the shoulders back .002 each time was working it minimally so shouldn't be a big deal. Can you expound on headspace problems causing pressure?

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 20, 2014, 06:13 AM:

Lock ease? Is it normal for a carbon ring to form this fast? Is there a way to slow it down? I have cleaned this gun more than any other gun in my life and never had a problem with any other gun.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 20, 2014, 08:35 AM:

Well, been out of town, still am, actually but there is so much going on here, I hardly know where to start?

The idea that you have 80 rounds through the barrel and have a significant carbon ring already developed just seems so bizarre that I can't relate it to anything I have ever heard of, personally or just casual reading?

Then, what the hell causes missing the paper, based on any imagined mechanical defects? Okay, maybe a grossly mismanufactured rifling? I missed the part, origination of the barrel, specifics etc. and hardly ever consider Douglas barrels in my guns but they are a reputable firm, so I understand?

I was glad to see somebody mention a nick on the crown, that can cause a problem but NOT blown primers! In other words, this seems a total clusterfuck. Don't know what is meant by changing a mount, or whatever the reason, but doing too many things at once leaves me in the dark on every level?

Being old school, I would never start off with a load: "very first shot out of the rifle produced a pierced primer with 25gr TAC." No matter what the program says, I start out way under and in the course of fifteen minutes at the range, you should be able to arrive at a theoretical max load; but it's worth the caution involved.

Having said all that, you know what? I just don't have a clue? I wouldn't be opposed to sending it back to whoever built it and at least get their seal of approval as to their absolution of responsibility. Then, (at least) you can start questioning your procedures, such as bumping the shoulder..... Not that it is responsible for the shit that is going on, but all of that stuff, working the brass is kinda counter productive, in my opinion. Then again, that first shot set the stage; this was going to be a head scratcher.

So, do we accept the theory that missing the paper is due to blown bullets or are we sure the bedding is sound and the mounts tight, etc? I know, this is basic stuff but you have to know for damned sure that the mechanical aspects are solid, including the scope internals.

If you have a barrel that builds a carbon ring in + or - 80 rounds you are chasing your tail. That's not acceptable, and I would be maneuvering toward a refund, just as it is, let Douglas see it and explain it, maybe?

Keep your spirits up. It looks like, rather than the end of a process, it's just the beginning? BTW, those bullets look pretty nasty!

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on October 20, 2014, 10:28 AM:

Are all the bullets from the same batch? Have you mic'd them?

Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on October 20, 2014, 11:05 AM:

I am with Lb....send her back. Every custom build I have ever had shot well right from the start if it was going to at all. You'll burn a lot of powder and primers and waste a lot of bullets to find in the end....it just doesnt shoot. At least thats been my experience.

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on October 20, 2014, 11:28 AM:

Oil in the barrel will cause carbon. If your barrel wasn't clean, dry and free of any or all oil('s) you will get carbon fouling. I use Flitz polish as a mild abrasive to remove carbon fouling, on a quality one piece coated rod and a good jag with a pile of tight patches. Some say there are better products than Flitz, regardless, you have a tough job ahead of you. Maybe, hopefully, someone has a better carbon remover to recommend? But Flitz will work.

Aaron as to overworking your brass, google 'Datum line rifle brass'. There are several posts that explain the importance of understanding how to size a case without overworking the brass and causing a dangerous headspace issue with pictures/images to help you understand. Keep us appraised of your progress. Lots of good people that will help you here, if you will let them. My email is posted on my profile, email me with your phone number if you need any help.

Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on October 20, 2014, 04:29 PM:

What Cross said... Send it back to the smith.

Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on October 20, 2014, 07:05 PM:

I'd be sending it back in too, but one thing that jumps out at me is...doesn't it look like those bullets are really jammed into the lands?

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 20, 2014, 08:46 PM:

Duck, those bullets are set .010 off the lands measured with a hornady comparator.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 20, 2014, 08:48 PM:

Mike, is setting the shoulders back .002 working them too much?

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 20, 2014, 08:49 PM:

Kabloomr, haven't micd them but I will, bullets came all together, same bullets 92soggy is shooting with no problems.

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 21, 2014, 03:32 AM:

.002 is okay, it's more than you need, but not dangerous. It would be worth the time to go through the procedure Mike described and you'll end up with less than .002. I personally only FL size or shoulder bump when needed and for my .17 Predator it has never been needed. I've only ever just neck sized cases for it.

Lock Ease is a colloidal graphite product. You'll find it at most hardware stores, normal use is keeping locks smooth and from freezing up. It's useful in reducing fouling in rifle barrels too.

Start with a squeaky clean barrel, run a couple patches of Lock Ease through, let the alcohol carrier dry. Fire one shot. Clean it squeaky clean again. That's it. Then after normal cleaning, one patch with a few drops of it as the last step.

I can't say that's "why" my .17 barrels don't copper foul at all, but I do use a similar product and those barrels simply do not copper foul. It's spooky almost, how little copper sticks to those bores.

I'd have a good talk with the 'smith before sending anything back. Pretty much all of them will agree to have a look at it. But most of them won't be willing to eat a barrel or refund anything for their own work unless it turns out to have been the issue and even then a lot of them will lie to you about that.

Most, not all, but most of the cases I'm personally familiar with of sending a custom job back have ended up with months of delay and back and forth bullshit only to end up right back where you started.

Except for bad barrels. No idea how Douglas is that way. I've heard of most of the others replacing them when a 'smith says it's bad though. Then if the 'smith provided the barrel, he might do the second chambering job free too.

Just depends. The guy I use would make it right, but it would take awhile!

80 rounds is pretty darn soon for a carbon ring though. Especially given how much you have cleaned it.

Too late now, and only my opinion which many will disagree with, but, just me talking, I'd never do a hot rod .17 in a ChroMo barrel...

- DAA

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 21, 2014, 04:15 AM:

FWIW, I have 2 Douglas barrels, Cuzz has a few more and another buddy has 1, none of them foul badly and they all shoot ok. The smith we use uses a lot of them and speaks highly of them.

We've had PacNor, Shilen, Noveske and Krieger in the mix to compare to. For the price and turn around time, I'm happy with Douglas.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 21, 2014, 06:39 AM:

I tend to agree with Dave on most points. First, while Douglas has been around a long time, and Chrome Molly even longer, I think a top of the line stainless barrel is money well spent. And, if he's lucky on copper fouling, I bet it is not accidental?

I only have experience with Hart and Shilen, but people speak crazy devotion to Lilja. When I asked my 'smith, he was non committal and said they were soft; whatever that is supposed to mean?

But, this gets to my question about the rifling in this particular barrel. What is it? My guess is it's not cut rifling? How many grooves and what type? Not that I'm up on which setup is recommended in a 17.

Now, I am one that suggested sending it back, because these issues always start and end with disappointment. Nobody is willing to guarantee their work when a shooter can do so much to fuck things up for themselves, but the manufacturer does bear some responsibility and has the equipment that will detect a flaw.

The whole firearms industry worries about their legal obligations, witness the way Dillon and RCBS, (for example) send parts without hesitation. I don't see why Douglas can afford to remain aloof in the legal climate, but the gunsmith has a whole different set of priorities and time constraints and not as much fat in the bottom line. Plus, they would be super confident, which doesn't help.

I'm still stumped? Nothing to suggest. It started off bad and I am pessimistic. There will not be a simple solution. WAG; was anything discussed about the neck specifications? If you should be turning the neck and using bushing dies, and nobody mentioned it....

Good luck, El Bee

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on October 21, 2014, 07:07 AM:

A very smart bird told me to use a Lilja on my .17 hotrod. I listened.
Only issue I had was, after waiting almost two years on the build, that that 1:9tw barrel Lilja sent to 'smith was ACTUALLY a 1:10tw!!!
Found that out the hard way, scratchin' my head during several range trips, as to why this full custom rifle wouldn't shoot 30Golds worth a shit...

Dave helped me along & actually sent some 25gr bullets for me to try, they shot lights out. After that, a quick confirm spinning a jag in the cleaning rod, I measured the twist @ 1:10"

Long story, long, sent rifle back to 'smith. He contacted Lilja, they took their sweet azz time correcting THEIR error. 'Smith, being the professional he is, had to basically re-rebuild my rifle, out of his own pocket. I hated that for him! That rifle is a badaZZ shootin' mama-jama right now, but it sure took a while to get er dun!

Despite the chitty deal with my crossed up Lilja, I'd still use echo that smart bird and stick with a Lilja for a .172caliber tube.

Hope ya can get squared away quick, Aaron. Might just be your time to take some lumps in the custom build barrel? Shit happens...

Posted by Rifleshooter (Member # 3983) on October 21, 2014, 07:14 AM:

Try painting the bullets on another rifle of the same type and see what they look like. The ejector needs to be removed to get an accurate reading on the painted bullets, are the bullets consistently marked 360 or just about half?

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 21, 2014, 07:37 AM:

Leonard, I talked to the smith yesterday, he wants it back so he can take a look with bore scope. As far as neck turning, our loaded round measures .197 and our reamer has a .200 neck.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 21, 2014, 07:48 AM:

Rifle shooter, my brother tried that last night with the other rifle in this thread and got the same thing I have as shown in the pictures. His are also seated .010 off the lands. When I ran those 6 rounds through, I loaded them in the mag and cycled them through with the bolt with the ejector still in place. Not sure what the results mean.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 21, 2014, 08:02 AM:

I think the question above pertains to a chamber sloppy enough that the cartridge only has a slight gap on one side, scratching half and not touching the other half. Can't tell from the photos what the back side looks like?

Anyway, it's not a tight neck issue, based on your numbers. But what's the reason for the blown primer? Whatever it is, it's a serious issue, in my book.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on October 21, 2014, 11:39 AM:

Aaron, Can you post a picture of the bolt face with the bolt removed from the rifle? I would like to look at the ejector, it's been awhile since looking at a Tika rifle. If the ejector is similar to a Rem 700 (spring loaded)and mounted in the bolt it's possible that brass has flowed into the channel and it's stuck, causing a false headspace problem and blowing primers. I'm just going thru a check list of possible causes and trying to eliminate them one by one.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 21, 2014, 12:08 PM:

I sure can mike, it will be a little while though. After I get done working.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 21, 2014, 07:29 PM:

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on October 21, 2014, 08:11 PM:

Aaron that's what I/we needed to see. If you have a blunt ended piece of dowel or something flat that is small enough to press against the ejector (the round object located inside the bolt cut out) press it and see if it slides back into the bolt, it should take some effort to compress it. If it's too difficult, put the bolt body in a padded vise and tell us if it willingly compresses or not. I will wait for an answer.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 21, 2014, 08:15 PM:

Mike, I did what you said with a fingernail and it does take a bit of effort but it does move. I also pulled the bolt on my .243 tikka to compare and they seem the same.

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on October 21, 2014, 08:46 PM:

Sorry bout that my wi fi connection took a time out. Next thing to try is take a piece of unprimed brass and see if it slips under the extractor lip. It will look crooked because of ejector spring pressure. Let me know how that looks. Then if your camera is handy take a few pics of the back sides of you 3 locking lugs to see if they have galled.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 21, 2014, 09:00 PM:

Three locking lugs? Do you mean 2? I think I'm going to hit the sack for tonight, to be continued.

[ October 21, 2014, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Rhoades ]

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on October 21, 2014, 09:33 PM:

My wi fi or ? is screwing up again, I tried logging in with my cell phone but it's screwy also.
Anyways regardless if it has 2 or 3 lugs, when you get a chance take some photos of the back sides of the locking lugs, just to see if there is any galling and or lug set back. If that is ok, it probably eliminates everything but the barrel and chamber as a source of your problem anytime tomorrow is fine.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 22, 2014, 05:47 AM:

By the way, I really appreciate all the help from everyone trying to figure this out.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 22, 2014, 05:56 AM:

From what I can tell, just some wear marks, no galling.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 22, 2014, 08:08 AM:

Yeah, I don't see any problem with the bolt? You could use a Sharpie on the back side of the lugs, then close the bolt and work the handle up and down a few times, which should give you a good idea of equal engagement, both lugs. But, that has little to do with blown primers, or missing the paper.... Besides, you can't get brass flow underneath the ejector or extractor, already there; before the first shot? Then, yes, with a blown primer, it behooves one to check the bolt face, very carefully.

I'm not "getting this" with what we have, thus far?

SUM TING WONG

Posted by Rifleshooter (Member # 3983) on October 22, 2014, 10:25 AM:

To check for a carbon ring in the area of the lead of the barrel/chamber You need to push a dry patch slowly from the muzzle end in a dirty barrel. If you do it on a clean barrel there is less feel. SLOWLY push it thru the barrel, if there is a carbon ring you will feel resistance just before it goes into the chamber

Try some 30 grain berger or Golds with a starting load.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 23, 2014, 06:53 PM:

I brought the gun to the smith today, I think he figured out part of the problem. Firing pin protrusion was .089 I think he said. He is going to keep it for a while and run a bore scope through it and see what he can find.

Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on November 17, 2014, 12:17 PM:

Any news on this Aaron?

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on November 17, 2014, 08:16 PM:

No sir, its at the gunsmith and has been for 3 weeks, haven't heard a thing. I really hate to bother him but I might have to I guess. Last I heard was he is going to borrow a borescope and look at it.

Posted by Rifleshooter (Member # 3983) on November 18, 2014, 12:59 PM:

Some friendly advice.. Get a new "gunsmith" They are NOT all created equal. This guy don't even have a bore scope? Unheard of.

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 18, 2014, 02:24 PM:

^^^^^^^^ What he said.

And, unfortunately, all too common. I think I mentioned that earlier in this thread.

- DAA

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on December 19, 2014, 10:40 PM:

I think we may have the problem figured out. First I called Douglas and asked what their bore dimensions are supposed to be, they said .168 on the lands and .172 on the grooves with a tolerance of .0002. I slugged the barrel today as well as ran a bullet through and did a chamber cast and this is what I ended up with. These were measured with 3 digital calipers and 2 manual micrometers and all the numbers jived +- a very little bit. Note the almost impossible to see lands.

Lead slug

Black Hole 30gr bullet

Chamber cast

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 20, 2014, 07:06 AM:

.002 under on the bore is waaaay out of line. Throw in being just rough, too, and I do believe you've solved it. Might get away with it in a .17 Fireball but not a high intensity round like the .17-204. And those grooves do look awful shallow from here, too, even for a .17.

Bad barrel... That sucks.

- DAA

Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on December 20, 2014, 07:41 AM:

I don't have a good selection of .17 bullets at this time to compare, but the bullets you have sure seem to be on the small size for diameter? The 20 & 25 grain Hornadys that I just mic'd are .172 and .1725 respectively.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on December 20, 2014, 07:53 AM:

Not sure what you mean? The bullet pictured measured exactly .172 before I ran it down the bore, it now measures .1705 or a restriction of .0015.

Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on December 20, 2014, 08:05 AM:

Sorry man, should have been paying better attention......

Is the muzzle end undersized as well?

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on December 20, 2014, 08:20 AM:

I'm not sure, the lead slug I drove back and forth 4 times I think before it would move somewhat by hand. The bullet was driven in from the chamber end and out the muzzle. I was thinking about trying to cast 2-3 inches of the muzzle end with cerrosafe to see if its the same, I don't know if I would be able to knock it out though.

Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on December 20, 2014, 08:44 AM:

I was just wondering as the pic of the slug appears to have more pronounced detail of the rifling. With the issues you have already found, it probably would be best if you can get those involved to make things right and bring this rifle up to your expectations. Please keep us posted.

Forgot to add: Was the gunsmith able to find a borescope?

[ December 20, 2014, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: KaBloomR ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2014, 09:01 AM:

I just read the entire thread; you know old guys with nothing better to do?

First of all, these guys are really trying to help and I think the advice is extremely well intended.

Second, your choice of 17-204 and a Douglas Chrome/Moly barrel, (even if perfect), I would question? Some people like them, I owned one YEARS ago, but I don't care, like Dave said, you really should invest in a stainless barrel, for starters. Then get clever with twist and the number of grooves and button rifled, cut or whatever the Peanut Gallery recommends?

More or less, you will end up losing on this deal. I don't think Douglas has a leg to stand on and your gunsmith needs to explain exactly how he acquired this barrel. So, take your pieces and find a different 'smith, if it helps your attitude. But, you are out the labor and I wouldn't expect much charity from this guy.

Douglas, through the gunsmith or through your personal involvement probably wouldn't offer a refund. You would get a new barrel and (to me) that's a situation like kissing your sister. I apologize to you Douglas fans out there.

So, if everybody raves about Lilja and17 barrels, that's a big clue. I'd ask Dave what he prefers as far as type of grooves and the number. He might not be the GURU on 17's but he will do, until one comes along.

As has been said, this sucks!

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on December 20, 2014, 09:12 AM:

It certainly does suck. Investing in a custom build for me would be a "saving up for" project, and I'd be really pissed off ending up with a rifle that couldn't even get bullets to the target. Hope things work out with the most minimal time and expense.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on December 20, 2014, 09:29 AM:

All along I was pretty sure it was a barrel problem, not a gunsmith problem, but I was willing to explore anything to get an answer. Some local guys were telling me I was loading too close to the lands, another was telling me to try different primers, so on and so forth. As well as the suggestions here that were a great help and I checked up on everything I could. Since in my mind I was sure it was the barrel, and now it seems I have irrefutable proof, I ordered a stainless Lilja .17, 4 groove, 9twist and it showed up at the gunsmith a few days ago. Other than that, the only changes I made was I went with a #3 contour and went with a 22 inch length. Shorter length because I'm gambling that I can get the speeds I want with the new barrel. Kabloomer, the gunsmith borescoped it and told me he can't find a problem. During this process I found a good borescope for a good price and I looked at it myself yesterday and it looks fine to me. BUT, I don't really know what I'm looking for as I am no expert. Bottom line is, I bet my problems go away with the Lilja and everything works beautifully. Tell you what though, sure makes me a little gunshy about buying barrels now! I can see it now, new barrel shows up, slug it, cast it, borescope it, measure it, before it ever goes to the gunsmith. Hopefully the Lilja is as good as the Douglas was bad.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2014, 09:52 AM:

Ok, where can I get a good deal on a borescope?

edit: oh, used?

[ December 20, 2014, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 20, 2014, 09:54 AM:

I may be the only Douglas fan here but both of mine and the other few I've been around have shot just fine. But bad ones are bound to pop up. Even Dave has a slow Lija I believe.

Anyway barrels are cheap, get a good one and start forgetting about this one.

BTW, I killed a coyote this morning with my 204 and 35 gr Berger, he died just about like he was supposed to. Made me wonder if we spend too much time searching for the "best" caliber...

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on December 20, 2014, 09:55 AM:

Craiglist! $450 for Hawkeye slim 17" with eyepiece and 90* mirror. Only thing is, can't use the 90* in .17 cal, will work in .204 though.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on December 20, 2014, 09:57 AM:

Tom, even though I am having problems, there never was a accuracy problem. It shot great, pretty much no matter what it was fed shot under .5moa.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2014, 09:58 AM:

That kinda makes up for eating a bad barrel.

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on December 20, 2014, 10:38 AM:

F.W.I.W. I mic'd some old Berger 18gr. & 20gr. v max's. The Bergers measured .1722, the v max's floated around from .1719 to .1725 with a couple that measured .1727, probably the last box of horny rifle bullets I will ever buy. All bullets aren't created equal, and yeah I've got a hardon for hornady and piss poor quality control. Point being if you're looking for consistency, measure all of your bullets regardless of make.

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 20, 2014, 10:53 AM:

Tom64, That little .204 with the 35 grain Berger is one of the good ones for sure. I own 2 and it still amazes me how well it kills coyotes out to 300 yards. Even with its shitty B.C.lol

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2014, 11:23 AM:

Knowing how punch presses work, I'm really puzzled as to how there could be such a wide difference, especially in diameter.

I can see, and understand a warn out die. And, if quality control is asleep, then you get a bad batch out the door. But, good and bad, all in the same box, (I assume?) seems difficult to account for?

I have used a fair number of Hornady bullets in the past, and never mic'd any of them. All were used in a hunting application and I never have had a problem with accuracy, but I think I have only used them in 22, 24 and 30 caliber?

That's starting to get more anal than I like; measuing bullets.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: I have had high confidence in the 53 grain .224" Hornady match bullet and it always killed well, for me.

[ December 20, 2014, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on December 20, 2014, 12:35 PM:

LB, according to the source (Berger) 17's are hard to keep consistent, or use to be. I was told that copper consistency has as much to do with it as anything. Many years ago when 17's first showed up Speer offered a 25gr. H.P. that could drive ya nuts, they (Speer) dropped that bullet pretty fast then Hornady made their old style 25gr. H.P. for Remington factory 17 Remington ammo, same problem but more pencil thru's than blowups with lots of copper fouling. Until Berger and a couple other small (at the time) bullet makers offered the first consistent 17 cal bullets, it just wasn't worth messing with. Finally I just went back to the .223 & 22-250 until around 2000, then I revisited the 17's again because Berger offered numerous bullets that were consistent from lot to lot, all was fine until they started changing the names and box colors, finally I just said "I'm done with the 17". Back to Hornady, its no secret that their lot to lot bullet tolerance varies, but in fairness the prices of copper bounces around like a golf ball on concrete. Someone mentioned the Speer .224 52 gr. H.P., that bullet has been around for 40+ yrs. and quality hasn't changed any from the ones I've used since 1970ish but it doesn't have a plastic tip so people tend to ignore them. Between the Speer 52gr. and the 53gr. Sierra, I have killed a bunch of critters in .223 rem & 22-250 up close and far away and they just worked even with an allegedly low B.C. that must be similar to a rock.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2014, 12:46 PM:

Yes, that's pretty much all I used in Swift, Speer 52 Gold Match and Hornady 53 Match. Speer quit making the Gold and I began using the hornady 53 flat base, after dinking around with the Sierra 52, 53, and the 52 Horn.

Forgot that I have use a number of Hornady pistol bullets in 38, 44 and 45 caliber. Never weighed any of those, either?

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on December 20, 2014, 01:11 PM:

For me the XTP pistol bullets are good to go, I use them in 38's, 41, 44, 45 cals. when I want a jacketed bullet running 1k & up bullet speeds. When reloading for a revolver I use lead about 99% of the time in the above mentioned cals, but I try to keep the velocities below the leading line (1k f.p.s.). My most used cal. is 38spl using a cast (soft/pure lead) 158gr. H.P. SWC (Speer #4628) it expands well and doesn't ring my ears at 900-950f.p.s.

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 22, 2014, 04:59 AM:

Sorry to read of your barrel woes, Aaron. But at least you've got it figgered out and are on your way to screwing on a new Lilja.

Looking forward to seeing this project come to a happy ending...

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on December 27, 2014, 08:25 PM:

Version #2. Almost same specs but with 9 twist stainless Lilja, #3 contour and 22 inches. Now 9 lbs 2 oz. Was ready Tuesday but just went and got it today.

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 30, 2014, 06:48 AM:

Looks pretty cool to me, Aaron!
Please let me know how those rounds feed from the magazine, will ya?

PT&G finally came out with a DBM for the Model Seven and I have one on the way to try out. If it works well, I'll be installing one on my .17Predator and using a polymer AICS .223 mag for it.

And keep us up to date with a range & kill report!

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on December 30, 2014, 06:56 AM:

Fred, someone asked me the other night if it feeds good and I said lets try it out. Put some rounds in the mag and ran the bolt fast as I could. Everything worked smooth and flawless. I wish they made a 5 round mag or 7 even, something shorter so it doesn't hang down so far. I think it would look better and be out of the way more.

[ December 30, 2014, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: Aaron Rhoades ]

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 30, 2014, 08:47 AM:

That's good to know, thanks!
I'm not real keen on the gawky 10rd mag, either. A stubby 3 or 5rd .223 mag would be ideal.
PT&G does make another style DBM that uses AR-15 mags, but I'd rather stay with the AICs based mags...
I love the heck outta my .17PRedator, but have "banana-jammed" a few rounds when feeding from the blind mag, so a single feed magazine might be solution.

Hope she shoots for ya, good luck!

P.S. cute little Kahles on top...Helia CL?

[ December 30, 2014, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on December 30, 2014, 06:04 PM:

Older version I believe Fred, KX 3.5-10x50. Also shot the gun today, started with H414 at 27.5gr, velocity 3762, went to 28.3gr and got 3869. Looks like I won't get the speed I want with 414. Went to Varget, started at 25gr, velocity 3763, went to 26gr and got 3913. I'm going to take the Varget higher and see if I can get 4050. Also loaded up some Ramshot Hunter to try. I have other powders to try also but not the two I need most. By the way, no pressure signs!!! No other problems either.

[ December 30, 2014, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Rhoades ]

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 31, 2014, 11:33 AM:

Cool deal!
I'd say if you're crowding 4K from a 22" tube, you're doing something.
Big Game is all I ever tried in the .17P, ~4080fps from a 24" Lilja...

Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 31, 2014, 02:22 PM:

Good luck Aaron sounds like you found what you were looking for , I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on December 31, 2014, 07:05 PM:

I got Varget to average 4035 with the high being 4051 with 26.8gr but the group went horizontal, all on the same line up and down but east and west was 1 inch. Ramshot Hunter shot phenomenal but velocity was low. Loaded up some rl15 and rl17 to try tomorrow. Awful cold to be shooting, was about 15 degrees here today.
Varget

Ramshot Hunter

Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on December 31, 2014, 08:07 PM:

How low fpm was Ramshot? That is a pretty sweet group. Have you tried to repeat any of those groups or messed with OAL? Just wanted to add, Mine should come fairly soon, I hope. Sent the barrel and action to the gunsmith a couple weeks ago.

I went with a #4 Lilja @ 24". Hopefully it doesn't come in over 9 lbs.

[ December 31, 2014, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2014, 08:11 PM:

I'd just stop with Ramshot, unless it's several hundred fps slower. Even then, I think accuracy is more important than velocity.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on December 31, 2014, 08:24 PM:

Dan & Leonard bring up excellent points.

Shooting for groups in cold weather sucks. Something else to possibly consider is warm loads in cold weather, might be a tad hot when temp's climb.

I have no idea what a max load might be for a 17-204. Just thought, I'd toss that out there.

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 31, 2014, 08:52 PM:

Do you have any TAC to try?

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on December 31, 2014, 09:14 PM:

Dan, the load that shot best was 29.5gr Ramshot Hunter, speed was 3807, 3765, 3804, 3792 average. Haven't messed with anything else, all are .010 shy of lands, haven't tried to repeat anything either.
Leonard, its slower than I want it to be, I would like 4000-4100. I could push the Ramshot hunter harder but not sure how much.
Tom, I do have Tac but haven't tried yet. So far I've tried H414, Varget, and Ramshot Hunter.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on January 01, 2015, 05:21 PM:

28.4gr RL17 gave an average of 4051fps. RL15 shot well but too slow before I got mild pressure at 26.3gr. Going to play with RL17 a little more and also have some Tac loaded for tomorrow.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on January 02, 2015, 07:18 PM:

I found my load, 28.3gr RL17 .010 off the lands got me a great group. Velocity was 4079. I tried TAC but my starting load(26.1) was way too high, had to tap the bolt open, primer was gone. Don't need to mess with it anymore anyway now that RL17 works well.

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 03, 2015, 07:15 AM:

That looks real good!
To echo what's been said, pay extra attention to a load that's been worked up in the winter months. Although I haven't loaded much RL-17, both RL-22 & 25 are quite temp sensitive. Found that I lose ~1fps per 1°F temp swing with RL-25...

Heck, I popped .17P primers in AZ after working up a nice load with Big Game here at home in the cold. Wound up backing off only 0.2gr and accuracy was still excellent.

Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on January 03, 2015, 02:10 PM:

That's the nice thing with varget, very low velocity change with temperature ...

Actually, I want some, but can't find any! :-(

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 03, 2015, 04:05 PM:

In any case, with the short barrel, I'm surprised you are getting the velocities we see.

I'd just stop with the various powders, you have accuracy and all the velocity you will ever need.

Charmed life.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on January 03, 2015, 08:32 PM:

And I found a coyote this morning on its maiden voyage!

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on January 03, 2015, 08:44 PM:

I'll have to keep an eye on the pressure, this load is showing no pressure signs but that doesn't mean it won't as it heats up. Is there a general rule of thumb for pressure increase per degree of temperature Fred or that is just what you noticed with your load? One thing I noticed from last Thursday to last Friday, temperature was 10-15 degrees warmer Friday and 28.4gr rl17 gave 4051fps Thursday and Friday it gave 4100fps. Only difference besides being a little warmer was I cleaned the barrel with wipeout until it came out clean(3 times) and fired 3 fouling shots before testing my loads listed above. So was it increase in temp that gave the higher velocity or the clean barrel? Or a combination of both?

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 04, 2015, 06:39 AM:

I'll have to keep an eye on the pressure, this load is showing no pressure signs but that doesn't mean it won't as it heats up.

*As long as you do your shooting in December/January, no problem, but (for sure) if you try it in the summer, there will be signs. High capacity seventeens are very susceptible to slight changes in temperature, and/or load variations. (so I've heard?)

Is there a general rule of thumb for pressure increase per degree of temperature Fred or that is just what you noticed with your load? One thing I noticed from last Thursday to last Friday, temperature was 10-15 degrees warmer Friday and 28.4gr rl17 gave 4051fps Thursday and Friday it gave 4100fps. Only difference besides being a little warmer was I cleaned the barrel with wipeout until it came out clean(3 times) and fired 3 fouling shots before testing my loads listed above. So was it increase in temp that gave the higher velocity or the clean barrel? Or a combination of both?

*All things being equal, higher ambient temperatures will show higher velocity. A clean barrel will usually indicate lower velocities. But, (in any case) three fouling shots are probably unneeded?

The thing is, circumstances being what they are, you do what you have to do, however: most people will want to develop a load in summer conditions, knowing performance will degrade in winter. Those seeking max performance, (that I know), will test winter loads, in summer, on ice. I don't think you can form any conclusions as to safe summer loads by your results in January? In June, I would start with a grain and a half reduction and work it up - that's if you have any intention of doing any shooting in summer conditions? The load you have right now is completely unknown, for summer. It could literally blow the gun up. Not probable, but cautionary. Be careful, I know you will.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 04, 2015, 07:00 AM:

Good on ya Aaron!

That velocity increase could be half as much from simply shot to shot variation as from that small temp increase. Unless you were running multiple over the crony and those are averages? In which case, I'd say that much increase from so small a temp change is a pressure sign all unto itself.

But, there are a lot of variables at play there. Having your chrony a few feet closer or farther can easily account for some of it too.

My usual routine for cold weather development of loads that will see use in warm weather too, is put them on the defroster vents in the truck for a couple minutes, they'll get nice and toasty. Run a couple cold, couple hot, couple in between, show you everything you need to see.

- DAA

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on January 04, 2015, 08:19 AM:

Dave, those were 3 shot averages with a magnetspeed v3.

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 05, 2015, 04:53 AM:

Congrats on gettin' a coyote down with the .17-204!
That ~1fps/1°F correlation came about after comparing my avg. velocity over a few shooting sessions with the .22-243Win. Had a great load (RL-25) worked up in the late summer, shooting in the mornings @ 65-70°F. Got good dope out to 985yds, and proved out over a few fun sessions.

Same load, shooting last January @ 600yds ~15°F temps, and was hitting consistently low. Whip out Magnetospeed, and sho-nuff, lost 55fps avg. with the same batch of reloads from previous fall...

Ballistic AE app allows for 'temp sensitivity', so I input 0.9fps/1°F as a correction. Now, when atmospheric data is entered, the program automatically adjusts MV based in temp info...

That ballistic mumbo-jumbo isn't pertinent to this thread, cept for the temp-sensitivity part of it.

And, just remembered, it wasn't AZ, but west TX/New Mexico where those primers blew. My bad!

Have fun with the new pea-shooter!!!

[ January 05, 2015, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2015, 06:08 AM:

I'm about to be ill, Fred!

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 05, 2015, 06:44 AM:

por qué??

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 11, 2015, 02:00 PM:

Put a new barrel, Pac-Nor this time, on the tikka, still a .17-.204 but with a .198 neck and 0 freebore, also went 20 inch barrel for the suppressor hanging on the end. Have about 30 rounds shot through it so far, tried the newer IMR 4451 which is supposed to be about the same burn rate as H4350 and RL17. Couldn't get enough powder in the case to get velocity, had some compressed loads, the last being compressed enough to push the bullet back out .0035 from my seating depth and still only 3840 with no pressure. Went to Varget and at 48 clicks on the harrels, got to 4028 but right at max load. 47 clicks gives 3971 so I may use that if the accuracy is there. May have to try another powder.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 11, 2015, 02:13 PM:

Also, I went back and read this thread and saw that I never stated what happened with the Douglas barrel. I sent it back, had $350 worth of chambering and threading on it, 2 weeks later I had a new barrel sitting on my porch. NO contact from them at all in the 2 weeks, just a new barrel showed up. So I ate the machining on the bad one I guess. I sold the new one to a local but I told him to slug or cast a few inches of each end before he did anything with it. He did and said it measured fine, I believe he turned it into a .17 fireball but he doesn't have it back yet.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on November 17, 2015, 08:09 PM:

Figured a load out for this barrel, 46 clicks of Varget on the Harrels, .232 5 shot at 100 yards, 3950fps, Norma brass, 30gr Blackhole Bullets, .010 off the lands.

Got a 32lb coyote a week ago Monday which is big for here and got this one yesterday morning at 400 yards, my furthest with the .17-204.

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 18, 2015, 04:14 AM:

That works!

- DAA

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 18, 2015, 08:21 AM:

Yeah, I'd say the accuracy is more than acceptable and the velocity is certainly workable enough for 400 yards on coyotes. I'm a little lost on the bullet used, never heard of Blackhole bullets. Is it a HP?

I'm not a big fan of a 17 bore employed as a long range coyote rifle, but as a start, it seems to be adequate? I mean, did he flop around, did he run, or was this 400 yarder a bang/flop?

Good hunting. El Bee

PS by the way, I personally like the pelt on that coyote hanging there. Some people like a more uniform "heavy pale" but I like that one.

Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on November 18, 2015, 05:28 PM:

Blackholes 30's that I'm using are flatbase hollow points and they have been working real well for me. Blaine made me a 32gr rebated boat tail but he only made me one. I would like to have a pile of those to try but I think he doesn't really want to make them, said something about 5 extra steps. Anyway the coyote tipped right over, my younger brother, not the one on this board, claims that it was bang flop, flop, flop, flop, flop and so on but I never saw that. I saw bang, flop, done. I do know that it didn't run, may have wiggled a little.

PS: the younger brother mentioned is a confirmed .17 centerfire hater. He really loves them but won't admit it!

Pps: this coyote was taking a crap broadside to me when I shot her so I put the crosshairs above her head a few inches and hit her about dead center of body and a little bit high, wasn't the best hit. It did pass through however. That probably accounts for the wiggling.

[ November 18, 2015, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Rhoades ]

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