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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 28, 2024, 04:12 AM:
I found some of my papers from when I did sound tests and sound travel.
First off sound meter simple electronic tool that measures sound and used by O.S.H.A. Most come with 3 settings to measure sound or pick all of it up at short or long level and is recorded into device as well. If anything makes a noise it can be sensitive enough to pick it up just change to another setting.
Mule team six advertises for a suppresser company and makes claim that this suppresser is quieter than what's on the market. Maybe it is but we just splitting cunt hairs either way and others will work just as good if matched to right caliber.
I also talked with them about their claim and their reply was they was using a state-of-the-art sound meter. LOL did little research on sound meters main difference was more bells and whistles like sound recording ect. Most of them out there still read sound the same so who is he trying to kid. The meter the company borrowed to me to use was right up there at the top. So anyway, just splitting hairs as far as who's is better.
When I tested for sound travel and how loud it can be I used my WT for entire test, wish I had a fox pro at the time also.
with meter 30 ft. from caller mouse vole put out 71-94 dcb at full volume. 2" in front of caller it put out 120-130 dcb.
Cottontail adult 95-98
Baby cottontail 85
Jack rabbit 95-100
Snowshoe hare 95-98
Lamb 96-104
Lamb 2" from caller 125-134
Coyote adult female 96-105
Coyote adult male 98-103
coyote pup distress 88-97
Estrus chirp ??? close to what pup distress puts out or little less, not loud sound.
As most should know by now the loud deep sounds would carry best on windy day over the higher pitched sounds. Calm day the higher pitch takes over, travels little farther and more continues.
There are a few podcasts going around one by MFK and one by P-P and few others as well.
Some of the experts claim to turn volume up and then turn volume down then turn volume back up, not sure what reason for that is other than to confuse animal trying to hear it.
Then another group believes in calling with volume at 75% or less at times. Not going to cover much ground so I can see why some guy's struggle if they are going by this info.
If you looked at my numbers, I listed at full volume with loudest caller on the market just imagine how much those numbers would shrink if not using full volume of cheaper E-caller or one not capable of producing that much volume.
I been going back and forth between my WT and the Lucky duck callers. Both can call coyotes just one does it little better than other one. One of the draw backs is loudness of sound, the L.D does not get out there as far as I like and at times not loud enough to to create and aggressive response. The louder the sound makes coyote think the other is close by thus it gets more aggressive.
Take two dogs that get in a fight, last thing you want to do is scream and holler at them it just makes them more aggressive, but on a bay up then you want to get the dogs more excited/aggressive, so they kill the coyote. Its same way when calling coyotes.
L.D. has a sound of pups killing a deer gets pretty aggressive and at time makes it sound like pups getting ass kicked as well. Adults will come running in to either help the pups or kill them. As Bill would say coyotes don't have grocery stores!
New coyote vocals on the market. Wt. has had the same sounds for as long as they been making their E-caller.
Lucky duck has his recordings of penned coyotes that still show some fear, so sounds are pretty good.
MFK has new sounds with a lot of breeding sounds, not sure how many of them you need. LOL And MFK recorded coyotes supposedly lived outside a pen but were domesticated so they could be handled. There is some difference of the howls compared to actual wild coyotes. Also L.D. recorded the western strain of coyotes and MFK recorded Eastern strain of coyotes. What I seen so far in some of their vid. are the coyotes coming into vocals get stand-offish quit often.
Bill at WT recorded the northeastern coyotes which run little bigger in size thus louder coyote vocals that carry well in the wind and farther out. Bills coyotes were recorded in the wild and only thing he did was make a bait pile just to draw them in for filming and recording. Some of his vocals have little wavering to them, which means that coyote he recorded was a little uncertain of itself. You don't get same results from tame or penned coyotes.
I was out calling other night with 40-degree temps. all I can say is wow that shit not normal for here, but I like it. Now the temps. dropped a little with heavy winds for 4-5 days and nights.
Coyotes paired up so I guess its breeding time, right? Fact is the coyotes been running in pairs all winter, two adults or two YOY running together. Listen to podcast or forums on this some seem to think soon as they see a pair of coyotes, they think they are breeding already. LOL I always say if the female is not swollen or has no blood or greenish clear discharge then she not in heat.
And if someone sees a YOY trying to mount another coyote at other times of the year it just has a hormone imbalance or just gay.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on February 28, 2024, 05:31 AM:
Degree of volume has been kicked around on these boards since they started. Some claim full volume, some say soft, some say intermittent, some say constant....pick your poison.
Everyone has some story of empirical evidence that one way or the other works best, truth is, it probably don't make two shits different what you choose to play, or how loud or the how much.
I'll toss this out just because I found it amazing. Was calling with my Son in law years back, big long open with scattered mesquite. Had him put the call out farther than I usually do, maybe 35 yards away. We settled in I hit the go button and raised the volume till my deaf ears can hear and call it good. My ears could never hear, asked him if he could hear it and he said, I think so, so I just let it roll.
The next 10 minutes had me straining to hear the caller, and at times, I actually thought I could. Long story short, here comes a big rough male loping in from what I would guess was 500 yards out. Came to call, son in law shoots it.
When I go out to collect caller, I had to literally put my ear to the speaker to make out the sound, it was next to nothing.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 28, 2024, 03:28 PM:
Sure, if a guy gets lucky and sets up close enough to one in first place maybe don't need much volume. Sometimes just hand squeaker is enough. Also helps if you got good numbers to start. But my point is calling to the ones that are farther out and far enough they can't hear a caller at half volume depending on brand and size of caller. And my other point is full volume don't hurt and coyotes can careless how loud it is, just excites them more. Reach out there in volume to cover more area when you have fewer coyotes or have not taken time to go out and locate them and thus make fewer stands cause you can cover more ground.
At night I can look out into a open field and see half mile or better depending on lay of the land and not see a coyote anywhere. Its farmland here all open ground mostly. The coyote I'm calling to can be in same one mile section or perhaps across the road at times. Some areas also I have no place or cover to hide the truck so at times have to set up a little farther away where I can find a good place to hide the pickup. Its the same when calling big country like western S.D. that's mostly pasture you locate your coyotes then you look for a place where you can hide the truck then slip in on them and set up to call.
This winter I had a area with a group of coyotes and been there 5-6 times total taking one coyote at a time and the area I called from was becoming alien to them to point they would come in but always stayed down in the drainage so you couldn't see them for a shot and then just sit and howl back at you.
I found a nice spot to hide truck about a mile away and had right wind so I set up and called long distance (LOL). At the hour and half mark, I spotted one of the target coyotes coming over a small rise just south of the drainage where they stayed in and was over in next mile section.
I kept feeding it a few howls every so often to keep it interested till it crossed the road then I switch to pups killing a deer and it picked up the pace to the point that it didn't even try to go down wind right away. I could watch it the whole time through the thermal and had time to turn on video record just before I killed it.
I've been to AZ. you have fewer access roads there so either you do a lot of walking to get into them or just drive down what road you have and then call again after short drive which means more stands for a given area and then hope there is one close enough to hear the caller and also hope you can find a spot open enough to pick one out when it shows.
Question is how many coyotes got passed up because they couldn't hear the caller to begin with or passed on because you couldn't find a good spot to set up on????
From listening to some of the podcasts these guys just try to come up with excuses as to why the coyotes didn't come in as much, like moon phases, barometer, not hungry and so on.
Roads get pressured or the easy ones get killed early in the season so now you have to have the tool that can reach out farther and bring in what's there or that's been passed on so many times or just leave them to insure you have a good crop for next year.
Not saying full volume is the answer for everyone but it is an option to think about. so is time spent on stand rather than 15-minute stand call louder and just stay longer since you took the time to set up in that spot give the coyotes a little time as well.
Something else to think about, you call a spot and kill one or two coyotes from a family group and then leave. What about the rest of them? A litter can be anywhere from 3-8 coyote pups and families tend to stay somewhat intact till breeding time. The pups will hang close together and the parents will be around as well just not as close to the pups and perhaps just out of hearing range if a guy not calling full volume. Just saying is all.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on February 28, 2024, 08:11 PM:
I guess the question is, how far can they hear low volume in your opinion? I just gave an example of one hearing a cottontail sound so dim, I had to put my ear to the speaker to hear it, and the coyote heard it over a 1/4 mile away.
Your perception of Arizona is flawed Tim, I hunt some open country you can see for miles, with some low hills, washes and grassland. I don't often hunt tight stands, in fact rarely. Mostly mesquite flats with large grass opens, size of half a football field to many fields long and wide.
I don't think high volumne is a bad thing, I just think it's over rated to some degree, and my experience has proven it to me at least.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 29, 2024, 12:18 AM:
I’m with Vic, other than when the wind is really blowing volume is overrated. I call extremely open areas in Utah, Wyoming, and Nevada there are times when volume is nice but most times lower volume works just fine. Like I said in an earlier post I’ve owned Foxpro, WT, and Lucky Duck and there’s very little difference in volume, and sound quality. They all call coyotes. And Tim before you say that one calls more than another let me just say BULLSHIT!!
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 29, 2024, 01:54 AM:
quote:
I guess the question is, how far can they hear low volume in your opinion? I just gave an example of one hearing a cottontail sound so dim, I had to put my ear to the speaker to hear it, and the coyote heard it over a 1/4 mile away.
That I don't know Vic. I can only go by what I see and how they react to a sound being played. I play a rabbit sound and see a coyote off in distance and it turns its head from side to side trying to pick up more of a sound it barely hears. I can turn up the sound if its not at max or I can switch to another sound that plays louder and may get a different reaction. But anyway, twisting and turning its head is a good indication of how far it can hear or not hear enough.
Out of respect I never drove down to where you lived to hunt so yeah, I don't know what that area looks like, just going by other part of the state I did see. Area by Florence then north to Steve Craigs, through the forest and west to Paul's place then back south again. There was some nice open ground over by the Quarries, but area was full of those stinking goats and wasn't sure I could hunt around there.
Chad, hold a coffee cup up to your lips when you say that. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 29, 2024, 02:38 AM:
I own four WT's and one of the Lucky ducks. Just playing all 4 WT's side by side they are not the same performance wise. The large TOA speaker has always been the top caller in WT's line of callers.
Place the Lucky duck in front of the Toa speaker and it only covers about a 1/4 of it which means the sound cone is going to be 1/4 of the size of a 2030 WT. No matter what volume you have the caller set at. And the output of the Lucky duck is going to be less, just way it is.
F-P x-24 is supposed to be pretty loud but don't know how loud cause F-P won't show the spec.s on it and they also pushing their sounds through a plastic TOA speaker which is not same as a metal TOA.
I think you said you had the mighty atom WT caller, and I would put that caller as about the same as the lucky duck in performance sound wise. (has a higher pitch to it)
General calling to yoy or virgin ears I'd say yeah, they are all good enough.
I rotate between my two brands of callers and do know I have more call ins when I'm using the WT. I don't have a lot of coyotes to play with compared to other parts of the state but do know when I can go out at night and call in 6 coyotes or more, I'm doing pretty good compared to other guys here that lucky to see 3 coyotes in a night and they hunt in better areas than me. Plus they listen to all the podcasts so they way much better at calling than me as well.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 29, 2024, 03:08 AM:
Turning volume up and down?
I'm always willing to try new things just in case maybe I missed something. So, for a time once I had a coyote spotted coming in from far off, I would lower the volume thinking the coyote would have to work the caller more and be not so quick as to pinpoint my exact where abouts and so on. Just let em come. By doing this I noticed some coyotes would lose interest and just mill around or even leave and then I would have to turn caller back on if I turned it off and increase the volume to get them interested again or turned back around. I saw no benefit in turning a caller's volume down so now days it stays at full volume no matter how far or close a coyote is.
Continues play or stop and go? If I can see the coyote to begin with, I go by what it does, if it's stopping all the time when caller is off then I just leave it on and see if that makes a difference, many times it just keeps them coming even when playing coyotes vocals continues.
Rick at Lucky duck has what he calls a long hunt which is a series of different sounds with short pause in between them, sometimes i pause it manually as I go or just let it play out the way he has it set up. I find both ways works well and think he did a good job of coming up with this series of sounds. I do same thing but have to look for each sound I want to play where Rick has it all set up for that which is nice, just push one button. Once again Rick did a good job on this.
Edit to add; My stands don't have a set time limit; I just wait it out till I feel in my heart its time to move on or if I get a vocal response then I sit longer yet. I don't even wear a watch.
How long do I play each sound, once again no time limit. I may make several howls before I switch to prey distress and may pause prey distress or just let it play till something shows then I just watch and see what the coyote likes.
Many times I'll do a locate as I'm setting up a stand and if no replies then I may leave that stand a little sooner but do have a few that come in silent so just have to wait them out, many times I see them right away in the distance.
Sound choices? most every stand starts with a howl of some sort to wake them up or get their attention. Early season may just use prey distress after that, as some coyotes will tend to circle wider if they can't handle coyote vocals, unsure of themselves or what's there. As season goes then I add more coyote vocals to a stand but try to stay on friendly side (non-threatening) of things till I know whats there.
On some stands when I start with a howl or two then go to prey sounds if nothing shows after a spell, I will play more coyote vocals, reason being they may not be hearing the prey distress sounds so I give them something louder they can hear. Like I said before if they can't hear the sounds from a caller they not going to come..
[ February 29, 2024, 03:30 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by NVWalt (Member # 375) on February 29, 2024, 06:46 AM:
I find all this data interesting. But my question is. How does a mouth blown call compare to your e-caller volume wise etc.etc. .
I have watched coyotes come from really far distances while calling some flats in Nevada and I wasn't screaming as loud as I cold on my call. My calls use the standard JC reed cottontail or jack.
I found my cottontail call worked for me better than the jack overall and when my buddy Ron and I tested out his Fox Pro to just my mouth blown call. And this was over a season and many many trips. I called in many more than the e-caller. Why? I don't know and we just figured the coyotes where we hunted had heard the e-caller sounds so much my calling was just different and maybe that was the reason. I just put a lot of feeling into my call and it does sound a little different than how Ron called. Maybe?
Just wondering how a mouth blown call differs from the e-caller.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 29, 2024, 10:34 AM:
Makes me wonder why WT ecallers haven’t completely taken over the caller market. They’ve been around a lot longer than either Foxpro, and Lucky Duck. All three are about the same price. And according to Tim they have better sounds,they are louder, and they call more Coyotes, and Bill’s no longer around to insult people. I’m shocked that they’re not selling like hot cakes. 😉
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 29, 2024, 10:49 AM:
Walt I don't have all my papers any longer but believe I tested a mouth call and a howler at the time. Mouth call was Burham bro.s with double jc reed and think it was around 85 dcb. and howler was in the 90's.
I also remember back in my Red fox calling days I had a bedded red fox roughly 3/4 miles away and got its attention enough to get it to come in and I was useing the Burham bro.s call which also was very high pitched for a call. And I know I had to really lay into it enough for the fox to hear it.
Later on I switched over to a bite reed call made by Ed Scerry which I could get some good high pitched volume out of. I'd have to say for distance I was really pushing it to reach 3/4 mile on calm day.
As for E-caller I set up along river north of Piere where river was the narrowest and where Randy Roede said to set up because this was where the coyotes were crossing it after freezing. Had to use Bino's to pick out the coyotes at that distance they were just little specks. River was at least a mile wide there if not more, I'd have to look at one of my maps and measure it for an exact distance. I'll do that later tonight.
Anyway, I had my E-caller on at full volume and tried different sounds to get the coyotes attention on other bank and just watch their reaction when I played the caller. At first, I got nothing so I switched to a louder deeper sound and some of the coyotes would look in my direction but did not move and I noticed they would turn their heads from side to side trying to pick up whatever it was they was hearing a part of. I still couldn't get them to come. I then started to turn the E-caller more into the wind and then all of a sudden, they perked up and started coming across the ice in my direction. I had two problems at the time. One I started too late to call this spot and it was getting dark and other problem was I was sitting up to high with riverbank below me with brushy cover along it. They got to the shoreline and thats the last I saw of them. LOL
One thing I noticed about sound and the sound meter is the meter picks up the smallest part of the sound as well as the loudest part so a sound that i put up starts at 96 and ends up at 105 for example, now throw distance in and a little wind a coyote far out is not going to hear all of the sound the caller is making, just the loudest parts of it the farther out they are and you just hope they hear enough of it to get them coming.
Also, which is another reason to use full volume and have the loudest E-caller you can get. Something that's going to put more of the sound out there for them to hear and then get a reaction.
What bothers me is guys like Big Al Morrison a world champion caller goes out calling and only uses 3/4 of the volume a caller can produce or turns volume up and then down on a stand and then don't call shit in and then comes up with stupid excuses as to why they couldn't get any coyotes to come in like Barometer pressure, moon phases and so on, just excuses that mean nothing and then they get the audience believing the same crap. This also tells me anyone can be a world champion caller if you got the money to unlock gates and call to virgin ears.
Al spent one day driving around looking for call locations because it was too windy to call and film that day. So they find areas with all kinds of coyote scat, so they come back next day and call the area and nothing, so he comes up with more excuses as to why they didn't come.
They didn't come because they weren't there to hear his caller at 3/4 volume, only takes couple stands to figure them out. The area covered with scat was just a feeding area and the coyotes spent the day farther back away from the roads, that's what pressured coyotes do.
Also, instead of just driving around he should have gotten rested up and went out that night and located them, so he knows exactly where they are for the next day and then call in a truck load and look like a world champion. LOL It's not just Al there are many other experts like him that have some sort of title or trophy on a wall that automatically makes them a expert. Hell if you live in Texas and kill 50-100 coyotes a year you automatically and expert. But on same note ask some of those experts what do they do if they have coyotes lock up on them too far to shoot, simple they just pack up and leave and besides their 15 minutes is up. LOL
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 29, 2024, 10:56 AM:
Chad but they are selling really good that's why WT don't have to advertise or have 50 head ProStaff hanging around for table scraps. Also, their E-callers are used for calling other critters besides coyotes. I never had a problem with Bill but then again, I never tried to tell him how to run his business. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Edit to add. And for the record I'm not here trying to sell WT's it just so happens I use them so they going to get talked about, I guess. It's a good product that I have never had to replace or look somewhere else.
[ February 29, 2024, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 29, 2024, 04:12 PM:
Then why do you have several others?
Look, there are so many variables, like mentioned, moon phase, high pressure, weather front moving in, season and 8 or ten other factors. Saying it's like apples and oranges doesn't begin to cover the question. Is it the "sound" meaning the actual recording, or the machine? Is there something about a Foxpro that enhances that recording way better than the WT?
I could even throw in the coyotes I have called with a Johnny Stewart, which is so far back, in technical development terms. How about 8 fucking track tape decks?
I have waded into these conversations lots of times and at some point will bring up a squeaking brake drum. Who the hell knows? Once your example stated is over and done, those conditions can never be duplicated. So, it worked once, but then it DIDN'T last week, (when every thing was different) so what the hell does that prove?
Use what you got and have confidence in, and quit trying to convince everybody that you have caught lightning in a bottle/pure gold! Estrus chirps is solid gold, but day in and day out, does it beat Dying Jack?
I'm gonna butt out and leave it to those that truly know it all, to explain it to us.... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: PS he's called out in the topic and ko ko must have the day off?
[ February 29, 2024, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 29, 2024, 04:56 PM:
Ok ................... First off, I should have a decibel meter to play with by this week-end.
(1) One Fox Pro at my usual 3/4 volume.
(2) Two Fox Pros playing similar rabbit sounds at 3/4 volume at the same time.
(3) A Crit-R-Call at 3/4 lungs.
(4) A Circe Trophy Model / Jack at 3/4 lungs.
(5) A mouth blown howler. Not sure of the brand off of the top of my head.
(6) Open to suggestions.
We gonna settle some of this shit once & for all.
Some of the other stuff, probably never.
Now, just what Vic said; Happened to me in Ore. in hard wind. An old Johnny Stewart tape caller. The one that made your arm longer if you had to carry it very far. No remote. Hit play and scoot to your stand. Could not hear the caller in that wind but about five minutes in spotted a tiny dot of fur coming in at a trot from way the Hell out.
One size may not fit all, but;
I BELIEVE; If you underestimate a coyote's hearing you're making a mistake.
I BELIEVE; That if a coyote hangs up at a couple of hundred yards it's probably because of too much volume.
I think that high volume is good to use briefly to get a distant coyote's attention but better to then tone it down.
Bear in mind, also that 'in close' is relative. A guy with a rifle thinks 200 yards is close. Someone with a shotgun thinks that <40 yards is close and some goof-ball shooting pointed sticks likes them in under 30 yards.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 29, 2024, 06:17 PM:
Everything that has been said has happened to me at one time or another, including whatever Vic said. I've, (after all) been there and done that!
Good hunting. El Bee
and, I just got back from the Highway robbery Market. I'm all fixed up for St Patrick's day. You know, the Corned Beef & Cabbage ritual in honor of my dearly departed Wife of 44 years who has been gone now for almost 18 years. PS she was Proud Irish, but you would never guess. Her father would laugh and say she was "Black Irish" then laugh his ass off. I think because her three brothers were all fair like the father but Nancy must have favored her mother's side, who was German. In any case, Nanc was a "Brownette" hair color, and if left in the sun for half a day, she would easily be mistaken for Mexican or some Hispanic? Her brothers were the type that would get a severe sunburn after a couple hours in the sun. Therefore, Nanc, (as a kid) she was always bugging her mom; "Was I adopted?" It was very true; she just didn't look like any of them?
So anyway, the Corned Beef and Cabbage on St Patrick's Day is my attempt at a Shrine in favor of her memory.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 29, 2024, 07:15 PM:
quote:
Then why do you have several others?
The mighty atom I have is set up for calling wolves, big cats, coon and other critters you find in the lower states. The caller is on the heavy side so something I don't like to carry when I'm far from the truck. Its also loaded with many sounds and can be a bit too much for any caller.
Next caller is the smaller TOA speaker, Pat at WT said I won't like it due to its size and performance compared to 2030. I didn't listen to her and got it anyway, my bad she was right. Its still good caller and I use it when I'm limited on room for gear and calling in tight areas where I don't need all the volume and I only had it loaded with about 100 sounds just to keep things simple. Its a good caller to have along also for early season calling.
Next is my old 2030 which is set up mostly for western S.D. calling but also works well here. I had it for over 25 years I believe and its starting to wear out and you just can't get parts for it any longer. All E-caller companies have that issue of getting parts. They get discontinued so another source for parts has to be found and then the internal stuff has to be updated or changed so new parts will work. Just look at F-P and all the changes they made through the years, it wasn't for the customer it was because they did not stock up on enough parts for each model of caller they had..
My newest caller is the WT Launt which is clone to the 2030 and replaces that caller. Its set up with all the coyote vocals and prey sounds and good for calling coyotes most anywhere but does not have any of the coon or fox sounds cept few distress sounds.
I then got a Lucky duck because I heard good things about it from friends up here and wanted to also compare it to my WT's and since it was a newer caller if I didn't like it I could sell it pretty quick where the F.P. market is flooded.
Yeah I'm happy with the Lucky duck and will keep it but its not the same as a WT 2030 and can clearly see that by how the coyotes approach my stands. The famous Estrus chirp? I gave it a good go since I had the caller and had more coyotes turn away from it than come in so I don't use that sound anymore. Wt also has their version of it but its not called estrus chirp. So I also guess Bill wins that deal on being the first to come out with it.
quote:
Look, there are so many variables, like mentioned, moon phase, high pressure, weather front moving in, season and 8 or ten other factors. Saying it's like apples and oranges doesn't begin to cover the question. Is it the "sound" meaning the actual recording, or the machine? Is there something about a Foxpro that enhances that recording way better than the WT?
I been out as many nights as I can long as the wind not blowing over 10 mph regardless of moon phases and whatever else there is, I still had coyotes respond to my calling, it just doesn't matter. Nothing magical about it, just have to know your coyotes and where they like to be and how they move or don't move and then have them hear the caller and play a sound that gets them excited enough to want to come in. As Bill once said there are no supermarkets for coyotes they have to eat and defend their terr. or they just die.
WT sound is studio grade and Lucky duck not even close to that, it helps. Remember how I told you guys early about how distance and wind can break up a sound to where a coyote only hears parts of it farther out? Well, if you have a bad recording that sound is going to be broken up worse the farther it goes in distance.
But remember if a guy only plans to call to coyotes less than 3/4 mile away then don't worry about how bad it sounds or was recorded it can still work I guess. LOL
Leonard when you called from your night rig its not that important how far the sound traveled cause you always driving ahead as you go. Big difference between that and a solid stand.
Studio grade sounds go hand in hand with a Top of the line calling unit. You have the best recording but you still need a machine that can handle it and get every bit out of the sound without distorting it or defeat the purpose of having studio grade sounds to start with.
Take lucky duck, they have a setting on the caller 1-4 which I think cuts down the amp so that you can play certain sounds without them distorting at full volume, thing is you lose volume as well when you change that, so what's the gain there?
Take the WT for example its designed to be played at full volume the sounds are designed to be played at full volume and only know of one sound that distorts a little, so you bumped the volume down one quick push of button.
Kelly Jackson had a pirated WT sound on his top F.P. caller and played it for us at Randy Roede's. The F.P. didn't play it any better than the WT but at same time it was hard to listen to cause we was inside the garage. Also, if the sounds not that important why was so many guys trying to get WT sounds on their F-P.s? I think Vic said he even had one of a wt. rabbit.
Not saying a WT is the golden nugget or greatest caller out there that's up to others to decided. What I'm saying is guys are passing up too many coyotes when out calling cause they just getting by with what they use.
If a guy works his way through a area of say five miles early season he better be calling in at least five coyotes minimum, if not he is not calling what's there. and I'm talking day to day calling and not some contest.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 29, 2024, 07:30 PM:
quote:
I have waded into these conversations lots of times and at some point will bring up a squeaking brake drum. Who the hell knows? Once your example stated is over and done, those conditions can never be duplicated. So, it worked once, but then it DIDN'T last week, (when every thing was different) so what the hell does that prove?
Thats another point I'm trying to get across. Repeatability! In last month many guys are scrambling to get the latest hot new sounds from MFK and one other source thinking they the holy grail of sounds. Bad news is they not. WT has all those sounds and had them for over 25 years, nothing new about them. I'm still using same sounds I had when I first got my WT with exception of adding all the vocals WT has so my library is complete and can cover all the bases if I need to later on in the season. Female invite and just vole mouse both have worked together over and over through the years.
I think Vic said the WT rabbit was his go to sound year after year. Thats repeatability.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 29, 2024, 08:22 PM:
Koko enjoy the sound meter when you get it. To keep things equal you need to test the E-callers outside in the open.
One day i was out to Randy Roedes and it was too windy to call so Randy took me over to a friend of his a retired ADC trapper turned call maker. Sorry but his name slips my mind these days.
Anyway, he used a sound meter to test his calls and he like to use wide tone boards with thick reed on them. He could get some dam good volume out of them, but thing was you needed big lungs to blow dam things and they just didn't sit right in my mouth. He had Varis tone boards all shapes and sizes we tested or played with just nothing I liked. I think he could get around 100 dcb with his custom calls which i thought was pretty good.
I went out to the truck and got one of my favorite calls, it was E.L.K products yote buster with a buffalo horn tip added to increase volume, it has a very narrow tone board that I liked. It has more of a higher pitched howl to it but is also loud. When we tested the yote buster it was right up there in volume with his big tone board callers but due to its higher pitch it wouldn't buck the wind very well compared to his bigger tone board, Be like a cottontail comparison to a jack rabbit distress sound.
Oh just remembered Steve Thompson is his name.
Steve took a look at the yote buster call and noticed there was a step cut in the tone board to allow more air to get under the reed.
I came back out about two weeks later and Steve bought up some Primo's Hot dog tone boards that Randy Anderson uses. I told Steve I had one at home and didn't like it cause the reed laid to flat, so you always had to bend it with your tongue like Randy did in his vid.s to keep it working.
Steve handed me one of his modified Hot dog tone boards and said give it a try. I made a few howls and noticed I could howl pretty good with it, wasn't anything like the one I had at home. I said what did you do to it?
Steve said he sanded down the tone board so he could get a step on it at base of reed where it fastens down, thus getting more air under the reed and not having to bend the reed up all the time.
Check it on the meter and it was right up there with his howls and also little easier to use. I took two of the modified tone boards home with me.
anyway the open reed calls should give you more volume than the JC reeded calls and between both types I think they will run at 60-90 dcb. Lets us know how it works out.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 29, 2024, 09:06 PM:
One of the draw backs of calling too loud.
If I'm calling to a family group of coyotes and there happens to be a coyote farther away and behind the group and not part of it. It may not want to come in due to having to pass through the groups terr. so it may just ignore my calling, or it may take the long way around the group to get to the rabbit so that's why I also sit little longer on a stand, you just never know. Also, once I know where a group is I may just stay back aways and work the fridges and try get one at a time to come rather than whole group and this is where a louder call also comes into play. I don't know how far a coyote can hear or how close I need to be for one to come so it's kind of a trial-and-error thing and I just start farther out and work my way closer to group or circle them but at farther distance. After a while you sort of get the feel for it.
as for being too loud go look at some of the U-tube vid.s or F-P vid.s you'll see coyotes run right up and stick the face right into a E-caller. In person I have never had that happen but then again I don't let them get that close.
Last year I bought my nephew a thermal, so we went out first night he had it and set up calling across a semi open creek bottom towards a feed lot where coyotes been coming in to feed on a dead cow. It wasn't even five minutes and we had five coyotes come out of the grove by the feed lot and they circled a little to get down wind but stopped before crossing the creek so scent wise, we were still good. I kept calling to them with a few pauses but the dam female in the group wouldn't let the others come to the call. She would bark at them and at times run over and cut them off to turn them back. Little while later another coyote comes running over from next section and crossed the road on their side of the creek. So I tried to call this one in and gave it some different sounds and it started to come. In mean time the female and I believe alpha male run down to this single coyote and start to whoop its ass and got it turned back and then it just ran off back in direction from which it came.
Not sure if this coyote was part of the group or just a loner from another group and why the two alphas got so aggressive with it to start. So it can be a draw back if terr. lines are enforced. Not 100% on this one. I did come back the next night since the lone coyote seemed so egar to come in and just set up farther away from the group and sure enough we got it.
I never got mom and pop but did get two of the kids at a later date.
I'll leave the politics to you old guys as I'm having too much fun with the coyotes to even care. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 29, 2024, 09:25 PM:
I just logged off here and went over to Facebook. There is a site called Night vision and thermal hunting Vid.s.
One of the law enforcement guys put up a video of a coyote standing about 100 feet from the car and the guy turns his siren on and the coyote just sits down and howls back at them. Another example of loud volume doesn't matter.
Link for those that have facebook;https://www.facebook.com/groups/746087865723311/permalink/2229312224067527/
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on February 29, 2024, 09:46 PM:
I was the first on my block so to speak, to get my hands on a WT caller, the first one Big mouth Bill came out with. That fucking thing weighed in at 17 pounds and change, set up like a backpack, gawd I toted that thing many miles.
Bought it online off some guy on one of the few boards out there back in 1998 or 99...can't remember? Going price for a new one was north of a thousand bucks, think I gave the guy $200, sold it a year or two later for $600, one of the few times Ive garnered a profit off a hunting related product or firearm.
Leonard, do you remember that first hunting board, simple text, no graphics, just writing?.....campfire cafe or some damned name?
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 29, 2024, 10:17 PM:
Yeah I remember them. Really wanted to buy one back then. At the time I had a Lohman ecaller that was a copy of the Johnny Stewart. I Had heard how a few government trappers around here had them and really liked them. But there was no way I could afford one back then. You are right seems like they were $1000.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 29, 2024, 11:28 PM:
Just think? He's talking a thousand bucks before Bidenflation, so that might be $1,500 nowadays? No, I meant $2,500, more like it.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS I don't know of any Message Boards, offhand? Before The ShadeTree?
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 01, 2024, 01:18 AM:
Yeah Scott H. and Randy Shaw both had one of the first models and Randy Roede was using the newer 2030. You right Vic. that was a lot of caller to be dragging around. Now days its just a TOA speaker and remote.
Price now on them is affordable and cheaper than the F-P x-24 minus the MFK sounds.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 02, 2024, 11:12 AM:
quote:
The distance over which a gunshot can be heard depends on several factors, including the type of firearm, the ammunition used, the environment, and an individual’s hearing ability. However, as a general guideline:
A gunshot can often be heard from up to a mile away1.
The range for hearing a gunshot can extend to 2-3 miles, depending on factors like the specific firearm and the surrounding environment23.
The sound of a gunshot can vary in intensity, ranging from approximately 140 to 190 decibels, which is extremely loud and can be heard at a considerable distance2.
Factors such as terrain, weather conditions, and the presence of structures can also impact how far the sound of a gunshot carries
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 02, 2024, 11:20 AM:
The range for hearing a gunshot can vary depending on several factors, including the type of firearm, the ammunition used, the environment, and an individual’s hearing ability. However, as a general estimate, most people can hear a gunshot from up to a mile away1.
Here are some additional details related to gunshot audibility:
Firearm Type and Ammunition: The specific firearm and caliber of the bullet play a significant role. More powerful ammunition or larger-caliber firearms can produce louder sounds that travel farther23.
Environmental Factors:
Terrain: Open, flat terrain allows the sound of a gunshot to travel farther, while dense urban environments may limit its range.
Weather Conditions: Factors like wind direction and humidity can affect how far the sound carries.
Night vs. Day: At night, cooler air temperatures can enhance sound wave travel, potentially allowing gunshots to be heard from greater distances2.
Other Considerations:
Suppressors: While suppressed gunshots are quieter than unsuppressed ones, they can still be heard from a significant distance under the right conditions.
Echoes: Natural or man-made structures can cause gunshots to echo, increasing the distance from which they can be heard.
Population Density: In densely populated areas, buildings and structures may absorb and block sound, limiting gunshot audibility2.
Remember that these estimates are approximate, and real-world scenarios can vary. Stay safe and be mindful of your surroundings! 🙌🔫
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 02, 2024, 11:31 AM:
The distance that the sound of a coyote’s howl can travel depends on several factors, including terrain, wind speed, and ambient noise. Here are some estimates based on different sources:
Simply Ecologist: In open areas, a coyote’s howl can be heard up to 3 miles away. The frequency range of their howls is typically between 7 and 8 kHz, which allows the sound to travel further at night when the air is cooler and denser1.
PawsGeek: Under ideal conditions (out in the open with no obstacles), a coyote’s howl might reach up to 6 miles. However, in more realistic scenarios, the range is probably closer to 1 or 2 miles2.
Floofmania: A person can hear a single coyote howling from about a mile away, but this can vary based on elevation, location, and weather. Other coyotes can hear a howl up to three miles away3.
Project Coyote: Coyote howling sounds can travel around 1,000 yards (approximately 0.57 miles) and are used by coyotes to identify callers, determine gender, and perhaps gauge mood. Transient coyotes tend to vocalize less than resident animals to avoid interactions4.
So, whether it’s a haunting howl echoing across the wilderness or a yip to gather attention, coyotes use their vocalizations strategically to communicate with each other and their surroundings. 🌕🐺
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 02, 2024, 11:40 AM:
One time when out locating with Roede we howled at the start of a deep valley and coyotes closest to us lit up right away with a howl, then a short pause and then we could hear coyotes farther away and so on like a domino effect. It just went on as far as we could hear and perhaps farther, but it wasn't my howls they were answering to.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on March 02, 2024, 12:15 PM:
Misc. thought on gunshot loudness;
Which way is the thing pointed ???
Shotgun, for instance........
At a couple of hundred yards it's going to be the loudest if it's pointed at you and less so if pointed away.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 02, 2024, 12:20 PM:
ALL of those estimates are very subjective, for instance:
"a coyote can hear another coyote's howl six miles away"
I wouldn't bet the farm on that, besides that you can never get a straight answer out of a coyote.
Especially after just reading that a gunshot(assume rifle) can be heard a mile away.
I know, wind direction and other factors. So, based on best conditions, it's still a WAG, which is short for: Wild Ass Guess!
As far as coyotes and the jungle telegraph; I believe that! WE have had certain situations in northern Nevada when a "pack" or maybe just a pair would light up, usually down wind and it might be just our luck that the two track we were following was that same direction, and they would be forewarned for miles and we would be forced to try to drive out of it, instead of making stands every quarter mile as is our usual practice, under new moon conditions, because this is optimum and we would not drive 400 miles except under optimum conditions, meaning new moon.
In the case of first or 3rd quarter, calling before the moon rises is preferred because they do see you, They may not know what they are looking at until they circle downwind, but that's reason enough to wear dark clothing or camo so movements are difficult to give you away because it seems that BLACK is a giveaway clothing color and it's better to wear a mottled jacket or the forest camo. What I'm saying is that you can get away with some careful movement wearing a green and black camo but solid black can be detected. This all depends on how close they are and if you are silhouetted on the skyline.
Sometimes they do see you but if you shut down and wait them out, eventually a volunteer will come in a try to wind us. When a coyote gets your wind, it's pretty much game over, unless you are using scent. and know how to use it.
If hunting at night and not using scent, you are seriously handicapping your success odds. I've tried explaining the concept until I'm blue in the face, so I will spare the Peanut Gallery, this time.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 02, 2024, 01:32 PM:
quote:
Does Adding More Speakers Make It Louder?
So, does adding an extra speaker to your home theater system make it louder? The simple answer is yes. This detail, however, is a matter of how humans perceive sound.
Because sound is mechanical energy derived from motion, adding an extra device moves more air. If we follow the piston analogy, adding an extra speaker means you have two pistons moving the same air pressure. More air moved results to louder sounds and sound intensity doubles.
Doubling sound intensity, however, does not equate to double the decibels. This detail is due to how decibels calculate.
Decibels are logarithmic functions that measure magnitude. Every 10-decibel increase means the audio has 10 times more intensity. A 60-decibel sound is 1,000,000 times (106) more powerful than a 1-decibel sound.
With that said, adding a speaker with a similar volume adds around 3 decibels. The human ear, to hear double the audio, needs an increase of 10 decibels. Why?
Perceived loudness is a matter of psychoacoustics, meaning it concerns how one perceives loudness. There is a variance in the perception of sound among people. Even then, evidence suggests humans measure loudness doubling every 10 decibels. This measurement means you need to increase the sound intensity by a factor of 10 to hear twice the loudness.
The increase in loudness is also exponential. For every 10-decibel increase in intensity, you’ll get double the previous sound. For example, 60-decibels will double in loudness once it reaches 70 decibels. Once it reaches 80 decibels, this sound is four times as love as 60 dB.
What this means is 100 decibels is equal to 16 times the loudness of 60 dB.
Guess this is what Koko was looking for. its a Yes and no.
Also if a caller is only capable of playing a sound at 60db. and another at say 70db this caller would be twice as loud. Now look back and some of the sounds I tested from WT that were past 100 db. it would be 16 times or more louder than a caller that can only play at 60db. or has it turned down.
[ March 02, 2024, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 02, 2024, 01:44 PM:
Koko I think that was mentioned for one of the variables. Yes Koko that's correct and same can be said for sound coming out of a E-caller with loudest coming out of the front. But now look at a jet plane, its the opposite. LOL
[ March 02, 2024, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 02, 2024, 02:08 PM:
quote:
"a coyote can hear another coyote's howl six miles away"
Under perfect conditions leonard , but more like 1-2 miles
Gunshot Leonard? yeah can be heard a mile away and more depending on direction its pointed and wind direction and speed. But also depends on caliber that's being shot, 17 Rem. wins every time for not being so loud.
Opening deer slug season, I can hear a shotgun at times going off least mile away. Then out in Dakota's goose hunters be on East River side and I be west river and know I'm over two miles away and can hear them at times. The thing is in this case the river is flat no sound restrictions and then the banks and hills on opposite side filled with the echo of guns going off.
Also coyotes don't know what a gun is they just hear it go bang from time to time. In well hunted area they hear it all the time and how they react is up to each of them. Same with human scent, some fear it and some don't. Example coyote comes from downwind and gets on the road and runs down wind of my pickup and then past it to the caller. Next one will probably bolt and run off in another direction. You right about coyotes seeing at night, from reactions I've seen I'd say about half mile out or little less they can pick up something alien to them. Yes, with mixed colors and stay away from black on no snow ground and stay away from white when snow is on the ground. White/gray mix be ok, solid white not so good.
[ March 02, 2024, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 02, 2024, 02:32 PM:
I think you’re over thinking all this shit. One thing that is a total fact is shooting with a suppressor it is a lot more quiet that without one. Period!!!!!! Does it mean anything in your coyote calling? Not really sure. Seems like I can stop more doubles and triples now but is that just a coincidence who knows. Howling, I’ve used loud ecaller howls and had responses, I’ve used open reed howlers and had responses, I’ve used Diaphragm calls and had responses and I’ve used my own voice and had responses. I’ve also used all of those things and not had responses. Anybody that says this is better than that is just guessing. As Scott likes to say only the coyotes know and they ain’t talking. The best we can do is experiment with what our experience is, that and a little luck and you’ll call in some coyotes, some day more than others and some days a goose egg. That’s what make it both fun and a challenge.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on March 02, 2024, 04:12 PM:
I overthink ......... therefore I am.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 02, 2024, 07:46 PM:
Silencers still make a sound, perhaps to high pitched for most of our ears to pick up, but coyote can hear way better and think most agree on that part. Also doesn't the bullet traveling at Mach 4 make a cracking sound? Bullet hitting ground? bullet striking the target animal? Also see in vid.s each coyote handles it little different.
Any complaints take it up with google since I don't have any to test and U-tube usually edits the sound so no one can steal a guys magical sounds. LOL
Yeah everyday can be different i just prefer to have fewer goose eggs. and what I'm trying get across.
quote:
The loud volume expands the potential area a sound can be heard. Has the potential for more coyotes to react to the sound. More likely have the sound travel through terr. boundaries. The volume of the sound leads coyotes to believe it may be closer at the initial hearing and once started they continue to its source. nothing screams that loud in the real world or sounds that loud unless it is very close.
Edit to add: What good is a suppressor if you have nothing there to start with?
[ March 02, 2024, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 02, 2024, 07:59 PM:
Chad since you use a suppressor do you shoot the gun more on a stand when dealing with multiples and do you take more high-risk shots as well? If so on high-risk shots if you don't get them, how do they react the next time you call to them?
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 02, 2024, 09:05 PM:
Like I said in my last post. I really don’t know if we are killing more multiples because we are shooting suppressed or if it is coincidence. I will say I’ve noticed two thing more often though, first when two or more coyotes are seen coming in and a shot is taken at one of the coyotes, I’ve seen the other one stop more often and given me a good shot than when I was shooting unsuppressed. Same with shooting a coyote and continuing to call and having another one show up. I’m not saying there might not have been other variables in play. Don’t know for sure. I am saying the rifle shot is a lot quieter with a suppressor than with an unsuppressed rifle. I would never go back to shooting unsuppressed. Period
Good Hunting Chad
[ March 02, 2024, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 02, 2024, 10:34 PM:
You certainly sound like a happy customer, Chad.
I had the opportunity to fire a half a clip of suppressed fire on an M4 at full auto. I can't really say that I was totally blown away. I'm just a natural born skeptic.
I could have done the whole mag dump, but as a guest, I didn't want to just burn up the guy's ammo.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 03, 2024, 08:14 AM:
I found one of my west river S.D. maps and measured how far across the coyotes were and came up with 1 1/4 miles.
Another thing about area I called is most of the pastures are 5 miles wide and up to 10 miles deep with a two-track going down the center, usually following a ridge with a drainage on each side. Not supposed to drive off the two track or it killed what little grass they had.
I always tried to be out there on no wind or very little wind and usually got 2-3 days of wind conditions in my favor.
Now if a caller is using hand calls or a lesser E-caller they not covering the 2 1/2 miles on each side of the two track or even over lapping into the next pasture so they are missing a lot of coyotes if the two track gets driven a lot the coyotes will tend to lay away from it or hunting pressure.
One of my trips out the ranchers said they had calling contest and had guys calling most of the pastures a few days before so thought I wouldn't have much luck if the contest guys killed any.
I didn't have any other spots planned for that day so I just made do with what I had. First off, I stayed on the west to east gravel road and walked into the pasture 100 yards and call then go down road a ways and go back in and call till I reached the property line for that pasture.
Reason being for doing this is callers tend to drive in aways before they start to call and don't call back in this direction because they are placing their caller out in front in direction they plan to go. Roede gave me a bad time and said I was just road hunting/calling. I said so what that's where some of the coyotes are and it made no sense to drive in past them and then try to call back behind me and also having wrong wind direction. After both sides of the road was covered then I made my way into the pasture calling both sides of ridge as i went. I don't know how far the other callers' sounds was going but do know they left quit a few coyotes behind and I just stayed in the area rest of the day since calling was so good. Since that week I never been afraid to go call a area someone else has been in. Bad calling, missed shots or not seeing them or just not getting sound out to them in first place, who knows.
Hunted with Scott one day and we walked into his calling areas, never seen a coyote come in. Next day the areas we called in was flown by the plane and the coyotes the plane was getting were mostly bedded closer to the road. We either set up too far away or was not calling in their direction to begin with.
If a guy can hunt his area all winter and still take coyotes out of it each trip just tells me, they missed that many on the first trip. Just saying is all.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on March 03, 2024, 09:28 AM:
Or ........... Mayhap Nature abhors a vacuum and new coyotes filtered in from surrounding areas.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 03, 2024, 09:53 AM:
depends on time of year from what i see or on how large the family group was from previous litters or if someone is stock piling dead cattle.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 03, 2024, 11:05 AM:
From my experience I’m with Koko. Take Coyotes out of a given area and within a month a different Coyote or Coyotes move in. Seen it over and over again.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 03, 2024, 01:10 PM:
What was said about how most of the coyotes were bedded close to the road. I never thought about that very much because how could I know that, unless I had a drone or I was flying over roads.
But, you know how certain things stick with you after several decades of pursuing these critters?
There was that one time along the border, on the reservation. Having not hunted the night before, we were anxious to start at the very crack of dawn so, as a matter of fact, the rig was parked just off the road and it was still nighttime, not even a hint of morning in the eastern direction, and I noticed spider webs everywhere, across the tops of bushes, this is not something you see every day. I don't know if it was because of morning dew that made them stand out, for as far as I cared to look, in a southernly direction. For all I know, the webs might have been on the north side of the road, but I didn't walk that way, for absolutely no particular reason.
Okay, so I walked out, no more than a quarter mile from the dirt road we had driven in, about perhaps 20 miles from the blacktop. You know, it was starting to look and feel very gamey. Some of you guys may appreciate the expression, but for Tim's sake I will try to explain that some areas look like there could be "game" behind every bush and every tree. Other than that, it's difficult to describe to people that lack a certain sense of hunter and hunted. (just kidding, Tim)
So, where was I? Oh yes, I was pussy-footing into the pristine, virgin bush, teeming with anticipation. I set my caller in a direction where the terrain sloped in a favorable direction straight out in front; in other words, I really had a commanding view even as I sat on my low stool. I like to put the speaker about 50 feet in front but because it was still very dark and I didn't want to be tripping over too much brush, I only put it more like maybe 30+ feet in front of me.
Then I sat and waited, let things calm down and again for Tim's benefit, it's usually better to pause, for most of us and let things quiet down, before starting the stand. Besides, It seemed like I still had at least 10/20 minutes before shooting light. So, I waited; kinda like a bird dog quivering with anticipation. This was a starry night, you could drive a dirt road without your lights on, so I just scanned and tried to make out as much detail as possible.
After about 10 minutes, I really couldn't see well enough to make out a target in the scope but decided it was getting a teensy bit lighter, so I turned on my called at very low volume. I forget the sound, but I would usually use some squeaking vole, in any case, I don't think I had a dying cottontail, as yet. It seemed like it took forever before I could make out objects through the scope, and most of us depend on picking up movements, but I still waited before moving the volume off of zero.
It got light before I was aware of it, so I started scanning slowly and by now It was past predawn and I could see them coming in very easily. And after a couple minutes and, I swear to god, not more than 10-15 feet in front of my speaker, this coyote, I was looking right at this fur-ball, stood up and stretched a bit and trotted off down hill and out of sight, so I stood up and still, the terrain fell off so he was hidden and out of sight after just a few steps. And during this time, I never even got my gun up, I couldn't believe this coyote had stayed bedded down right in front of me for at least 20 minutes! That's my opinion because I could have seen movement, it was never pitch dark and I'm sure a coyote wouldn't sneak up and then bed down right in front of me. I'm fairly certain that he was there the whole time and then I still have a question. Would I have kicked him out, if I had walked another 20-30 paces? It seems inconceivable that he would let me walk past him in the dark. And stayed put?
Tim is probably the only one that has enough information to diagnose my scenario and figure out what happened.... so without further ado, I can't wait for him to 'splain me, what actually occurred. I'm just kidding. wink/wink
But, why didn't that coyote stand up, stretch and go stick his nose in my speaker, as I have seen a coyote do, several times. Why didn't he stand up, or jump up, look my way or not, and take off in afterburner?
Coyotes do many predictable things, behavior you can count on. And every once in a while, they do something unexpected. Have you ever observed a coyote a half mile away, not aware of your presence, and you observe him in your scope as he minds his own business. Then, as you give him a sound, how many times have you seen him suddenly turn in your direction, for a minute, maybe less, and then decide to ignore your sound by then looking back to what he was doing before, and he has decided, either it's too far, or he has heard Lightning Jack before, or he has caught your wind ten minutes before you spotted him.
It's just so hard to figure out the reason for what they do, or they don't do. It's like when hunting down by the Goldwater Range, and the calling and the hunting has been normal, and in that area, the action starts to drop off before about ten A.M. (it's too hot) that is, unless one of those planes drops a bomb earlier, and after that, forget it, you will not be calling in any coyotes after a bomb is dropped, so you might as well forget it! It's exactly the same in other areas where they are mining and blasting. After the dynamite goes off, the coyotes aren't coming to a rabbit call, and there is no coyote yipping, and no response to your calls, so don't bother.
I could say the same thing if you have a storm moving in, bringing either rain or snow. I don't think coyotes usually respond very much or not at all, if the barometer is dropping and it's an obvious weather front moving in. They just do not respond well when even a human can be aware of an upcoming weather front. Other than that, if you are fortunate enough to be in the field when everything quiets down, that's when they will be eager and active after waiting out the storm. That's alway some of the best hunting! It's always worth waiting for! In fact, some of the most delicious time in the wilderness is when it's either raining or snowing and everyone with any sense at all is at home or at least having a beer or some coffee at a quiet little establishment closer to civilization. It always feels good, after having been cold and wet, to be inside and waiting it out. I hope you guys have been there and done that.
I remember once, while driving through Minersville, Utah, and we were caught in the middle of a herd of cattle right in town, and we didn't get the windows up in time! I bet we had several hundred flies in the cab for the next 3 hours. Flies just hunker down and it's impossible to get them out through the windows, wave at them all you want but they aren't leaving! You have to pull over, open all doors and wave towels and hats and whatever you got, to persuade them to get the hell out of your truck! You do not need to relearn this lesson very many times!
That's all I got right now. Sorry for the rant
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 03, 2024, 03:08 PM:
Yes I have seen some really odd behavior over the last 35+ years of calling things that definitely make you scratch your head. But the bedded coyote story now that’s crazy. I would have loved to see the expression on your face.😁
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 03, 2024, 04:30 PM:
Same here with fill ins. Most just same members from family group from previous litters that got overlooked for some reason, like property lines. From what I see a family group stays somewhat intact till breeding season and then start to disperse somewhat but not going very far for most. But depends on what's. there for cover and food and how well they enforce their terr.
From running coyotes with dogs, I learned two things. If a coyote being chased by the dogs and just runs a big circle, then that coyote was born in that area. Sooner or later, they may even show you where the den is, pipe, brush pile or hole.
The other coyote and usually a alpha male will run pretty much straight line to get away from the dogs and if dogs keep pushing the coyote will take them to where it was born which can be a 5–8-mile chase or can go as far as 18 miles or more.
Soon this coyote will head for its hole, den, pipe, brush pile or in some cases an old barn.
Yoy being chased by dogs just run in circles like the female.
When snow is on the ground and you can find tracks the tracks can give you a good indication of where that coyote is from and just tells you it was a coyote from a previous litter stopping by to check things out and then leave on same night or the next. You follow that track and it may take you 2-4-6 miles away depending on food and cover.
Mom and pop get killed along with this year's litter then one from previous litter just sets up shop. Can't shoot tracks but they can give you a history of that coyote.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 03, 2024, 04:45 PM:
First stand with Randy R. we drove into a pasture at first light just 100 yards or so from road. We sat in truck let things get quiet and make our plans.
Randy mentioned as we got out and said don't fuck with the truck doors just close it and be done with it.
We walked in to east and little Parrell with the road to south and crested the ridge and now looking down into a nice drainage. I sat down and Randy walked over small rise to my left and sat down. I couldn't see him or the drainage to his left, but he had it covered. Randy turned the caller on and started to play a series.
Coyote laying in the grass just 80 yards in front of me sticks its head up and I shoot. In mean time Randy had 3 others coming in from the drainage bottom but changed their minds after I shot so Randy gets up and walks over to me and says you could have waited for them to get closer. I said them. I then replied I only saw one coyote! Randy says where at and I get up and we walk over to it.
Randy just says oh you got yourself a sleeper. LOL This is also same area and group of coyotes Randy showed me the power of the WT and how much you can get away with on the coyotes. We kept moving around and worked that group till we got all but one and that was the last coyote from group. Randy wanted to try out his new AR 15 on last stand, so we moved and then set up. Sure, enough here it comes, and Randy takes about 250-300 yard shot and knocks the shit out of the coyote and it falls to the ground then gets back up and runs down into the drainage never to be seen again. Randy says welp I guess I won't be using that gun anytime soon. LOL
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 03, 2024, 05:07 PM:
Back when I got my thermal, I parked truck at end of a T-road and then just walked about 100 feet from truck and scanned the area quick. I spotted a coyote less than 100 yards coming along the fence-line in my direction as it didn't know I was there. I set caller on ground and set up tripod and shot it. Thought oh this is nice. LOL
All I can say is it must not of seen or heard me as that's how it acted.
Back in the day when we just walked the tall grass for coyotes many times, we would walk up on them, or they would get up and just move back around us and lay down again. They were just conditioned by the bird hunters which never bothered them and they also adapt to gun shots.
I like calling these areas cause if I get more than one coyote to show up and shoot the first the others still hang around and give a guy a chance for a second.... Lots of things just boils down to how that coyote went through life and what it was exposed to good or bad and adapted one way or another. Another thing about calling the grass areas is human scent, they don't show as much fear from it but just depends again on what each coyote was exposed to. Had 3 coyotes this season come in and got my down wind and they just walked a little farther out from me and just laid down and waited. Another stand on another night had a pair do same thing.
Then on another night i was in to tight so limited on what I could see or shoot at and then had the whole group circled around me, up wind, cross wind and down wind. I ran two callers that night and just kept pissing them off till one finally showed itself so I could shoot. Sometimes it pays to wait out the storm and wait for sun to come out you might say. LOL
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 03, 2024, 05:31 PM:
quote:
What was said about how most of the coyotes were bedded close to the road. I never thought about that very much because how could I know that, unless I had a drone or I was flying over roads.
Thats just one of the things I picked up Leonard, Scott or no one else showed me or even mentioned anything like this. Think they just worry more about killing coyotes and not looking deeper into it or looking.
Example; Take one of those 5x10 mile pastures. As you work your way in you come across coyote scat all over the place, lots of it so it must mean there lots of coyotes in area. So you stick to the two track and call your way in and finally get to end of 10-mile two track and nothing came in.
They are all dead from a previous hunter? Moved out of a good area or perhaps the stars weren't aligned for calling that day and 20 more excuses.
I find out area has been called before and also the rancher likes to drive through every other day to check on cows and takes pot shots at any coyotes he sees. aaah pressured coyotes.
So one has to stop and think, where would the coyotes hold up for the day? Back in one corner of pasture there is some rough broken up ground you can't drive to or get close enough? Or one of the drainages has a deep ravine that you may have to walk to get close enough for coyotes to hear the caller. or how about across the road where I first drove in, there isn't any gate on that side and a nice drainage there as well. Sometimes you can look at the powdered dirt on two track and pick up nice clean tracks that give you a direction a coyote maybe going. Go back to the gate and look and sure enough there is a track heading for paster across the road. Snow would be a dead giveaway for finding tracks but out there I hated calling when snow was on the ground, to dam cold. LOL
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 03, 2024, 06:08 PM:
quote:
Coyotes do many predictable things, behavior you can count on. And every once in a while, they do something unexpected. Have you ever observed a coyote a half mile away, not aware of your presence, and you observe him in your scope as he minds his own business. Then, as you give him a sound, how many times have you seen him suddenly turn in your direction, for a minute, maybe less, and then decide to ignore your sound by then looking back to what he was doing before, and he has decided, either it's too far, or he has heard Lightning Jack before, or he has caught your wind ten minutes before you spotted him.
Here the younger generation calls them night walkers. I see this often but not enough to keep track of. Few things come to mind. for one the coyote knows something is there that's alien to them but shows little or no fear as its to far away to hurt it. Saw something or heard something.
Sound played on caller was to far off(weak) to get it excited to want to come in. Maybe a howl would of been better choice.
Coyote perhaps been called before, and his buddy got killed or the hunter did a mag. dump but yet you too far away to be a threat, so coyote just keeps doing what it's doing and ignores you.
If more sounds would of been tossed out there to coyote and then see its reaction some of the variables can then be eliminated.
I have a few coyotes that behave like that, and I keep going after them, but I make sure that I know they didn't hear me come by or know I'm there.
I have one-mile sections here and very few places I can hide a truck let alone not see or hear it.
So, for some of them I just have to walk down road farther before I go in to set up, put more distance between me and the truck. Other option is I been using my side by side to get into the area close to them and coming from a different direction they not use to yet. Some places I do actually set the caller out farther from me.
Other option is wait for a cloudy night or moonless night or find a spot where they have some shadow to come in on like a tree line if I can find one. LOL Coyotes like to come in through cover or along the edge of it in the shadows and they will come quicker at times!
Some guys say a no moon night is best because like I mentioned coyotes like to approach under a shadow. and on a full moon night broken up ground with shallow waters ways or what have you that throw off a shadow for coyotes to come in on makes them comfy. The moon here rises from East and sets in west just like the sun so I have to also think about setting up according to position of moon and lay of the land. Some coyotes are fussy about this where others are not so it's a hit and miss with them. Not over thinking anything just paying attention when in class.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 04, 2024, 07:08 AM:
Rough night last night. Went to bed early and woke up at 10:00. looked at weather and it was pretty nice, so I loaded up my gear and decided to find some fresh ears to call to and drove farther west of town. Coyotes been bedding up on the flats instead of down in the cover not sure if its from too much hunting pressure or just something they do around mating time.
So, I just picked a road going west and stopped every two miles and called into mostly open sections. I made 7 stands total and called in 6 coyotes which pretty good for this part of the country. Humidity was 80% with a temp of 35 and overcast sky. I only used the Lucky duck and all the coyotes I called in didn't come from very far with one pair coming from other end of a section near some crp. (3/4 mile) All of them needed a jump start of some coyote vocals followed with prey distress but some got goofy on me when I went to prey sounds so switched back to coyote vocals.
One stand I had a loner on way in, so I gave it some Estrus chirps and never did get close enough for a shot. Maybe barometer pressure had something to do with it. LOL Well off to bed, I'm tired.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 04, 2024, 09:38 AM:
apparently, the saga continues?
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 04, 2024, 10:25 AM:
It's checkers, not chess.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 04, 2024, 04:23 PM:
Disagree Vic.. Random calling to anything willing to come in is checkers. Calling to and bringing in what's there is chess, requires planning ahead of time and being ready for the next move. Anytime a guy sets up his remote with presets then he is playing chess not checkers. Anytime you go after a known coyote that's been called before its also a chess game... Last stand last night called in a pair they played a hell of a good chess game. LOL
[ March 04, 2024, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 04, 2024, 04:26 PM:
Sorry Leonard, I'm still out hunting for another week or two.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 31, 2024, 10:30 PM:
we have an old hand that says he uses a handcall with a cottontail reed, calling in Nevada, of all places.
This is by the way:
In Nevada, I killed my first Kit fox, my first coyote, my first bobcat and my first lion.
I know the state fairly well, sound carries, it is generally more open than neighboring states. High volume, using a machine have never been a problem for me and I supplement, more often than not with many different hand calls, even calling over the machine, if I feel like it.
Tim, it's good that you are convinced in what you are using. Myself, I just wonder if all the studying and the effort makes a significant difference? I'm indifferent, sound works! I have used a CD I got in Africa of a dozen different African critters. Truthfully, of those sounds, the very best responses I got were from a strictly nocturnal animal called a Springhare, (I thnk?) It's a large cottontail/chinchilla (my description) I did kill one, one night while hunting Jackals. They light up every bit as bright as a bobcat or lion, probably more so, they have huge eyes, and I killed it, not knowing what it was, but this is neither here nor there. My point is, it's a hell of a good sound, it's just primordial, if that's the right word, it just sounds fabulous, to me.
Doesn't matter, coyotes respond to the sound, eagerly! It's the same old story, it's an animal in distress and it has universal application. So, the WT-BM-BS doesn't mean shit, to me. Even the "studio quality" of the sophisticated electronics doesn't matter to me; go ahead & fucking DISTORT the sound, it just ads to the urgency! Yes, I think a large part of the discussion is confidence building. If you believe in your shit, that's wonderful!
Now blow it off, discount my comments, pay no attention and I could care less. At some point, you are kidding yourself, just like how fishing lures catch fishermen, not fish. Not always, occasionally one specific lure is just magic! I've seen that plenty! Coyotes aren't particularly picky. Cats are attracted to the higher pitch sounds, as a rule.
This discussion has endured and everybody has a pet theory, and it being a free country, (more or less) go ahead and BELIEVE IN YOUR MAGIC SOUNDS!
That's it, I'm out of here.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ March 31, 2024, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 01, 2024, 06:50 AM:
quote:
go ahead and BELIEVE IN YOUR MAGIC SOUNDS!
Nothing magical about them Leonard, they been around over 25 years. But then again tell that to those that have pirated those very sounds for just as many years. Must be some magic there.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 01, 2024, 07:38 AM:
My first E-caller was a Lohman cassette player basically a cheaper copy of the Johnny Stewart caller. I really didn’t use it that much because I mostly hand called back then.
Next I bought the Foxpro FX3 after awhile I upgraded to FX5, liked both of them they had good sounds but didn’t really like the temperamental remote. So I bought the first CS-24B when it came out, better sound quality and new sounds but still crappy remote.
After a couple years Foxpro came out with the CS-24C with there new better remote I loved that caller basically what the WT is now. But I heard so much stuff about how coyotes were being educated with so many Foxpro’s on the market so I gave my brother the CS-24c and bought the caller of all callers the WT mighty atom, good sounds but nothing really any better than the Foxpro. Got rid of it, because I hated the remote and the damn thing weighed 8 lbs.
Finally ended up getting the Lucky Duck Roughneck with Rick’s premium sounds, my opinion is they are the best vocals out there. It’s light weight and I love the remote. No magic sounds but fits great with my way of calling.
FWIW Good Hunting Chad
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 01, 2024, 08:49 AM:
I have the Lohman CD caller, two speakers and a bag to carry it all in. CD's and dust don't get along.
I still have mighty atom, yep its heavy, don't sound as good as the TOA and batteries a pain to take out and put back in.
Got the lucky duck yeah good sounds but same as WT just different. I like it because of the remote for nighttime calling. Sound quality needs work though.
On my newest WT I have all the coyote vocals and added a few other sounds, and the numbers are not in same order due to that, so it takes time to get them all memorized again so the L.D. sees little more use at night. On daytime stand don't need it.
I also have two Dennis kirk callers but can't get a Cassett player for them and this caller is loud as it's all just a big speaker and amp. Too bad Dennis wasn't around long enough to improve it.
Oh lets not forget the Minaska big country, not loud caller but I could put my cassette sounds on it, thing with that though is you lose in sound quality performance when you download the sounds.
I sent most of my cassettes to a member here think he was from Cali and had everything copied over to CD.S and all I wanted was to have the sounds cleaned up but instead he modified most of them to what he liked to hear and just fucked most of them up.
Big ass Cassett library though with sounds you never find again and when I'm gone, they just end up in the trash. (Ed S., Bill Austin, Burnham bro.s, Dennis kirk, Johny Stewart, Rich Cronk ect) )
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 02, 2024, 01:45 PM:
I was talking to Pat today at WT in New Hampshire and asked her where Bill did most of his recording on coyote vocals. She said Bill and his son traveled all over the U.S to record coyotes and other critters as well. Also, a lot of time was spent up in Canada recording and filming.
WT has a DVD on calling coyotes and also filmed them of which I have seen and yes, the land scape on many of his hunts is different from hunt to hunt. Not much if any filming was done in New Hampshire.
Just some FYI.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 03, 2024, 06:48 AM:
Let's see? the one in CA that you generously sent sounds to and he subsequently fucked them up? Just a guess: Might the name Gary Clevenger ring a bell?
Two seriously disturbed people that might even get along, Bill Marz and Gary Clevenger!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 03, 2024, 09:24 AM:
No Leonard. I never liked Gary after first time we met at campout.
The guy that did recording for me was kind of a hippy I guess, wore a dew rag around his head and was at one of the campouts as well. You remember what year was first campout?
Think guys first name was Rich or richard but not 100%
[ April 03, 2024, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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