The New Huntmastersbbs!: Coyote nose versus dog?

This is topic Coyote nose versus dog? in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 12, 2021, 09:11 AM:

We must have covered this several times but I don't remember.

I'm thinking about my dog, Tillie and she's a full blooded and pedigreed Blue Tick Hound and registered as an English Coon hound.

I watch some of the things she does and she has amazing smell abilities, as far as food goes.

So really, is a decent hound comparable to the ultimate survivor, La Trans, or what?

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 12, 2021, 12:29 PM:

Nope.
Bearing in mind that opinions are like elbows, & everybody is entitled to a couple of them;
Even if a hound has an equal amount or more of those nasal receptors the phrase 'nose blind' applies.
Light a scented candle or an incense stick. Smells good but after a while it's just not as apparent. Nose blind. Now go outside for a while and come back in. The smell is really apparent again for a while.
Now consider the hound. It's nose is bombarded with domestic odors 24/7. Nose blind.
Now consider the coyote; lives by the nose in the open air.
My vote would be for the coyote if for no other reason than a coyote is constantly aware of the scents it's smelling.
Feel free to disagree.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 12, 2021, 01:25 PM:

I'm sure you have a point, and I'm not talking about the shape of your head. ha ha

But, let's take the case with so called drug dogs. I'm not really versed in how they weed out candidates, but one thing they do is blindfold the dogs and when they are relaxed, they have these small vials that they carefully place in fairly close proximity and they watch how the dog reacts by wrinkling his/her nose, indicating that they are reacting to the presence of a unique smell or scent.

I believe they have five bottles with progressively diluted concentrations of the target odor. I conclude that just about any mutt or pedigreed scent hound can pass the first or second concentrations, but the screening gets a lot tougher as they present the fainter concentrations and I'm not sure, but I don't believe certain breeds excel and others bomb out, except maybe Boxers or Pugs or others with the shortened muzzle indicating that they have quite a bit less olfactory gear to begin with.

It's a rare dog that can detect the contents of bottle #5 and I "believe" this is the quality they are looking for, that can detect heroin inside and surrounded by a load of fertilizer, or any other masking scent you care to name.

Now, has anybody tried a tame coyote, or several tame coyotes and see just how many of those bottles they can detect? Of course the candidates would have been acclimated with you suggested nose blind situation.

So, that takes away the wild and woolly wilderness coyote that hunts just as much by sight as with their nose....arguably.

But, I don't know? I have heard that the scientist can actually count these olfactory glands into the 50,000's more or less. That may be a little like measuring head diameter, or hat size to determine intelligence based on cranial capacity. And, there is "SOME" evidence that capacity DOES have SOME bearing on innate intelligence; as in MORE_BETTER.

Some people think that some birds have no sense of smell, and how do they come to that conclusion? Via autopsy, or observation?

Anyway, we have one vote for (I don't know) and one vote-coyote. No taking into consideration for special talent.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 12, 2021, 02:20 PM:

Ok ............. How often have you been in a group when somebody says "Hey, you hear that ???" All of the sudden everybody can hear it. It just takes somebody who 'hears' what they're hearing and then everybody can.
Or
Ever spot a deer or three over on the next hillside in plain sight, to you, and the city boy next to you needs to have them pointed out to him before he can 'see' them ???
This is where the coyote sees & hears & smells what his senses are telling him and has the advantage over the domestic dog.
Exceptions, of course. Like trained drug dogs or military bomb dogs or the last coyote I killed with a bow that came in from downwind.

I'll be interested to hear CDude's thoughts on this.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 12, 2021, 05:47 PM:

Remember, downwind doesn't account for eddies and how a crosswind can divert what you think is down wind. But yes, I've seen a coyote approach from down wind. I can't explain it. Just guess at a reason.

I've explained before, while hunting at night with a red light and spraying or misting scent, and you can see how it swirls and flows like water in a stream. Anyone who has dropped a fly into a current can see how it moves on the surface and not necessarily where you want it to go. Some people explain how scent disperses in the shape of a "cone" and that's incorrect. Scent actually flows as a ribbon, it does not spread sideways, at all.

I've seen diagrams explaining this "cone theory" and I promise you, it is complete bullshit. Don't mean to get too far off subject, but downwind can get kind of complicated.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 13, 2021, 06:49 AM:

Timothy Anderson says, (via email)

as for dogs they are all different and some bred to use there nose where others are bred to use there eyes. Pups from same litter may not have the same nose as it depends on who's traits they have more of, the father or the mother that has a better nose than say the father. You would think coyotes would be close to the same some with a good nose and some not so good. Seen coyotes hunt with there nose down but look like it didn't get much use when they run. Tend to see them rely on there eyes or ears at times. Had days where the scent from a coyote would bring a dog in on a string and days where the dog dam near had to be on top of it. as for drug dogs I think they pick out the dog as a individual and test how good his nose is and thats the one that gets the job, don't believe all dogs are equal. My dogs run off of pad scent or body scent from a coyote like hairs falling off the body as it runs and once close enough its eyes on running where some dogs don't use there eyes and have to rely on there nose which falls into a tree dog group. My pups in Wisc. are out running the tree dogs when it comes to running bear, why? Cause they have more tools and the brains to use them. I use to believe everything Scott or Randy said about coyotes and have learned some of it isn't close to being spot on or way it is. So I guess I would say a coyotes nose is better than some dogs/breeds but also believe there are dogs that smell just as good and perhaps better.

I agree scent travels more like a ribbon or better yet more like a spider webb depending on how the ground lays out if conditions are right. I would take a bug fogger out just before dark and it would give you a dam good idea of how scent would travel. Cool, damp, condition with very little wind the fog would stick close to the ground like a blanket and just sit there or disperse very slowly in down wind direction. Add a little more wind to it or a wavering wind then the blanket would break up some. warmer temp and the blanket would rise farther off the ground but still keep its shape. seen up drafts where it just lift the fog high off the ground and it would go just about every where and also break up and become nothing.

[ December 13, 2021, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 13, 2021, 06:56 AM:

(he lost me on that spider webb comment?)

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 13, 2021, 07:46 AM:

I think that he's referring to those long single strands that you sometimes see when the sunlight hits them just right.

Hey Tim,
Happy Holidays !!!

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 13, 2021, 09:32 AM:

The image I got was blowing your nose without a hankie and the snot catching the wind and blowing against your leg and boots, then tripping over it and wiping your nose with your sleeve....kinda hard to while you snuff it back up and sneeze, forgetting that you didn't remove your CO VID mask.

Also reminds me of the time I was walking along the canal and this huge fucking grasshopper smacked me right on the forehead! Without thinking, I swiped at it and send my glasses flying. Ten minutes later, I found them dangling on a creosote twig, since I had spent 9.5 minutes searching on the ground. But, that grasshopper was a friggin' man-eater, like being attacked by a hotdog! I still have nightmares!

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 15, 2021, 09:23 AM:

Believe it or not, I cannot disagree with Tim.

That said, let's look at the dog's road to now and the coyote's.

Coonhounds have been selectively bred for scenting and trailing abilities for many generations.

Coyotes have been breeding and reproducing for many eons, appearing in the fossil record even before wolves or foxes.

Selective breeding means only those individuals with the sought for trait are allowed in the game.

Coyotes? It's a free for all, and shitty genes get passed on as much as the great ones.

Advantage? Dogs

Then, factor in individual animals' capabilities and consider that coonhounds have staff to support them and they don't live by their noses directly, whereas the coyotes do, along with their hearing and eyes. In other words, your average hound will be artificially sustained by humans as its life doesn't depend upon its ability to hunt and catch prey whereas a coyote has to be able to fend for itself.

Advantage: coyote.

Also, a coyote isn't a dog; I think coyotes are smarter and more able to act and react to their environments better than a hound, even with a litany of hardwired behaviors that leave you scratching your head. Would have to be able to do so in order to survive without human protection and support. In a contest between the two, the hound's actions are reactive to the coyote's. On the occasion where the coyote(s) switch to offense, employ its own inherent behavioral advantages and fight back, a hound will often find itself in deep shit. That's why they turn four greyhounds loose on one coyote and not let them go at it mano y mano. Just my personal experience with coonhounds, greyhounds, and coyotes and not stated fact.

Conclusion? Hell if I know!

As to birds, most birds suck at scent detection. The olfactory lobes in their brains are very small compared to that part of the brain dedicated to sight. In owls, the auditory regions are bigger as owls actually rely upon their sense of hearing more so than most people believe. The exceptions to the rule - as far as scenting goes - are any species of vulture, griffon, condor - the scavengers. Their scenting ability is extremely good.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2021, 01:22 PM:

I'm not considering "coping" as a positive trait, in dogs. Just the innate ability to detect a specific scent as I mentioned the training for a drug sniffing dog. I assume that their ability to detect hotdog is just as keen as the ability to detect cocaine or fentanyl.

As to coyotes, I mean really, what exactly is the life saving advantage in detecting a rabbit from three quarters of a mile. What I'm saying is that it seems a bit overrated. Most coyotes would wear themselves out by tracking a rabbit at that distance. Instead, it's the threat mechanism in circling and detecting Tim Anderson hunkered down under a bush and not falling for his pathetic and laughable dying rabbit imitations. So, that's it, detecting Tim's garlic breath and staying out of the trap. Olfactory enhancements are a bit overrated, especially compared to a scent hound who will get a extra kibble and a "good dog" pet on the head for detecting some prey type critter. See, a dog knows, within seconds that you just cracked open the peanut butter. Yes, of course, she heard it too; but it could have been detergent or over cleaner so that's where her superior nose has such profound advantage.

It's complicated. But. Advantage, coonhound! Not even close!

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by ATexan (Member # 6799) on January 13, 2022, 03:39 PM:

Awesome stuff I must say.
So here's a question for you fellas. What if one was to find den and take a coyote pup home and raise it. Do you think taking it out in the field and keeping it close to you so it's scent would intermingle with the your scent help any way shape or form? I.e. imprinting a young pup and put it on a leash keeping it close while calling. I have always wanted to catch a female and use her when in heat, to see what would happen. Might be a dumb question but I figured I would throw it out there.. Lol, I have heard of people raising them like a house dog and only could guess what a pain the ass it would be. But my thinking is get one when it's super young and eyes are closed and go from there.
Figured you have to have a hell of a kenel and lots of time on your hands to try to tame it somewhat. Figured if anything a another coyote might come in if it sees or smells a coyote that dosent belong in its territory, especially if it is a alpha and a destress call is going. And if in heat, it would be hard to pass up a willing female.
Anyhow, woulda think about it?-Tex

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 13, 2022, 04:34 PM:

I think that it would be a huge pain in the ass and possibly illegal to raise a coyote that you could never fully trust.

I have had inconclusive results by wetting down a fresh coyote hide, squeezing the water off into a jar, filtering it thru cheesecloth, adding coyote urine and then misting it on stand.
Coyotes have come in to it from downwind...... sometimes.

I've also had a coyote come in from downwind while I was smoking a Marlboro 100 on stand. Go figure.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 14, 2022, 08:33 AM:

ko ko, back when I smoked, I used to smoke all night standing on top of my hunting rig camper. The advantage is that with a choked down red light, you can easily see which way the wind is blowing. Your scent, the vehicle fumes and that cigarette smoke are all blowing down wind. Your job is to stop that coyote and shoot that coyote before he gets downwind.

Another thing is that coyotes have much less tendency to circle in the daytime than at night. So, it is very possible to smoke and still call in a coyote while smoking that cigarette.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: oh, excuse me! I notice that you said he came in from downwind? No answer besides go figure? But your scent can swirl up and over his nose. Entirely possible because I've seen it at night spraying mist. It's easy to see it as it drifts up and bounces on boulders and tree trunks. Scent of any kind, (as I've said before) does not spread out in a triangular cone shape. It flows like a bubbling brook. This is why the animal doesn't stop until he's right in it. I can usually tell within ten feet of where he will stop. It's not sorta down wind, it's exactly downwind. The scent doesn't radiate out sideways very much, but it does coat the bushes and the ground as it passes, kind of a lingering scent after the spray has passed. It's like the bushes get painted with the "Magic Mist".

quote:
I have had inconclusive results by wetting down a fresh coyote hide, squeezing the water off into a jar, filtering it thru cheesecloth, adding coyote urine and then misting it on stand.

You can concoct lots of smells, even fresh baked cookies, but you went to a lot of trouble. I know people that use clam juice in a pinch.

[ January 14, 2022, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 14, 2022, 09:48 AM:

Another 'Go Figure' moment was my secret Butt-Hole trap set. I made a basic dirt-hole and filled it with the contents of my truck's ashtray. I then made a couple of urine post sets about 5 yards away thinking the coyote would smell the butts, circle and get caught at the urine post. Worked as planned usually but once in a while I'd catch one at the Butt Hole.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 14, 2022, 12:42 PM:

smoked on stand all the time, the key was to make dam sure you could see down wind, but my coyotes usually got killed before they could go there at 100-200 yard mark. Had coyotes bust in on a few stands that I never saw till they stopped 20 feet in front of me, they should have kept running and they still be alive today. what I see is if a coyote had a bad experience in life and the smell of a cigarette was involved or a stinky human that drinks too many beers, if they survived the encounter, they don't forget it too soon.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 14, 2022, 02:52 PM:

That may be true but take a coyote, at night along the Interstate. I don't think they ever learn to be afraid of vehicles, until they cut it too close and get flattened by an 18 wheeler. I think it's just like Ravens, they only pay attention when you stop.

Good hunting. El Bee

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