This is topic Another stupid question in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-bin/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001684
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 30, 2020, 03:51 PM:
For anyone who has used thermal or night vision....
My neighbor who I am teaching to call and who is doing quite well at it was talking to me about night calling with lights and he brought up the question of which lights to use. Like me, the prospect of mortgaging his house for the money to buy the high-end gear sits somewhat poorly with his better half. We talked about "need" versus "want" and I told him, in my opinion, that if a guy was to be using the thermal gear, he would still probably need a regular (visible) light in order to sweep for inbound targets and that the thermal or NV would only really work well at the point the coyote is fairly close and for the actual shot. My reasoning comes from conversations I've had with military friends who tell me that because thermal/NV are 2D and offer no real depth perception, the brain is constantly fighting with the eyes to put together a decent image, and that wearing or using head-mounted Th/NV for any length of time will give you one helluva headache.
At the same time, I just don't see it being all that practical to try to sweep with a thermal or NV scope on your rifle due to all the movement involved, and the like.
Personally, I told Jack that a shit load of coyotes have been taken by very capable night hunters over the years using less than hi-tech lights that only included visible light and that the only options they had were color (red, white or green), an intensity knob, and the means to tighten the field of light from a flood to a spot light for the shot. Personally, going off y'all's past comments, I'm planning on picking up a middle-of-the-road light with a red lens and finding a way (again) to be happy with what I can afford.
How exactly do guys use thermal lights? Sweep with them, or sweep with a red lamp and use the thermal scope for the shot? I'm on a new learning curve here so pardon my ignorance.
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on August 30, 2020, 06:07 PM:
I am just getting in to night hunting so take what I say with a grain of salt. What I have learned so far is that some hunters use a light weight thermal monocular to sweep the field and then switch to a red light on the gun when the target is in range. I started out wanting thermal gear but came to realize it is a "want" rather than a "need".
My state is going to allow night rifle hunting with lights and NV beginning in December. So I am at the beginning of the learning curve. I'm looking at picking up a Sniper Hog 66LRX light. A lot of the hog hunters in TX use it.
I think Leonard knows more about this subject than anyone else I know. He should be along shortly.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 30, 2020, 06:32 PM:
I think that I've mentioned this before but until your coyotes get 'knowed up' and you 'need' the high tech stuff,.... old school red / flip lights should be all you need for at least a couple of seasons.
Where's El Bee and why hasn't he written a book on this ????
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 30, 2020, 08:50 PM:
Yeah, I did start to write a book, once. I stumble across the manuscript on leap years.
But, I don't have thermal. I've seen the videos of mowing down hogs with the machine guns. Must be rich Texas cattlemen?
But, night vision is another story. And, just between you and me, where it's most useful is places where you're not supposed to be.
Like I said before, with good technique, knowing how to use visible light, you can manage without it.
I think it's really cool.
What I got frm some Belarussian guys, first of all, is some infrared glass filters that can be glued or taped to the front of your aircraft landing light. Of course, by now, maybe somebody has adapted LED's, but even that isn't "necessary".
So then, you need goggles and start with gen 2 maybe? Now, you are all set to hunt (scan). You are pretty much dedicated at this point, meaning that you need a partner with a rifle and a mounted NV scope. Your partner will just be picking his nose until you pick up some eyes. Then he will turn on his gear and try to pick up what you are looking at. Sometimes it's easier said than done but, after a few fuckups, you should get a shot, and just maybe you might get an animal.
But don't kid yourself. You aren't cheating and it isn't easy. If you think coyotes are smart in the daytime, they are just as smart, at night, maybe more so.
That would be something to get you started, If you really get into it, educate yourself before you drop five grand because after you get it, you will probably find out that somebody had it for $3,900?
Those are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass. I don't know what's available right now. Expect to replace the amplification components internally, this stuff has finite # of hours and I hope you have a source for parts?
Good luck,
El Bee
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 01, 2020, 01:57 PM:
What I'm trying to convey, is that hunting/scanning at night with something held up to your eye is exceedingly tiring and misses a whole range of terrain in front of you. Kinda like learning everything about the inside of a room by peeking through a keyhole. When scanning in the daytime, you are limited by which direction your head is turned. At night, with a spotlight, you focus on where it is pointed, kind of like a radar screen. If you have a thermal scope held up to your eye and scanning in a sweep, until you try it for the 15-20 minutes required during a stand, you will get damned tired of doing it after only a couple minutes. The only way to come close to natural movement of your head and eyes, at night, is a light source, preferably focused and concentrated, a spotlight, rather than a floodlight. Yes, you can use a floodlight, or several, but then you have to move your head and eyes and illuminating the majority of the compass is wasted and counter productive. There is no substitute for actually engaging in these activities. Talking about it just doesn't grasp the concept, usefully. It's a little like learning to ride a bike, by reading the instruction manual, rather than hands on experimenting, and trial and error.
In fact, I'm going to post this in an attempt to get people to understand that just buying the equipment isn't the whole answer. If you have a house under surveillance, that's easy. Set your tripod, focus on the doors and windows and stick your eye up to the eyepiece for as long as needed. But, now, what do you do about the house next door, or a vehicle parked on the street? You have to disengage and realign and so on. In the daytime, you don't even think about it, you just look this way and that way, check out the subject and it's almost effortless. If you think that the answer to hunting predators at night is a matter of gadgets, you could be a little disappointed. LB
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 01, 2020, 02:04 PM:
Yeah, but what I mean is the physical part. You cannot hold a scope up to your face for the length of a stand. I don't care if it's NV or thermal, you can't do it and when you put it down is exactly when you're going to miss an incoming. If coyotes stood around gawking at you, like a cat, but they don't. You have to be ready at the exact second they come in and flare out even faster. Looking through a device of any kind takes a lot of coordination and at some point, if you are wearing goggles, you have to switch. And, he's already gone. Think about it. LB
-----Original Message-----
Yep you sort of right about it, or as far as night vision goes which I agree can be hard on the eyes. Now thermal is a whole different animal as it can pick up the coyote the second it comes into viewing range, you don't have to strain your eyes to see it as it actually glows or jumps right out at you sort to speak. I got good enough calling them in the day time I also have no need for such toys. But now days that what the new generation needs in order to be successful at killing summer time coyotes (pups) oh and lets not forget the AR as well with a 20 round mag.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 01, 2020, 02:45 PM:
Here's the thing for those that haven't hunted at night. (which I have been doing for more than 50 years) so trust me.
The guy working the light, whatever it is, is the hunter and he is the quarterback. Until he lines up a shot, the guy on the gun is just a bystander.
Now, I have seen this enough to know what I'm talking about. The man on the gun tries his best to follow along with the approaching animal, and does the best he can, which is a lot harder than in sounds, looking through a tube. He will be constantly repositioning and attempting to reacquire the animal.
Just imagine that he has the viewing device, whatever it is. His only point of reference is where the (in my case) the red light is pointed. So, he will take that as a clue and try to pick up the animal. Sometimes, the only time he is actually on the target is when the light man stops him with a bark or a squeak; and he better be quick. Fortunately, he knows this and does his best to get on the animal as fast as possible.
If you don't get anything else out of this, just be assured that whatever gear you get, the basics are the same and you cannot make a stand by waving a thermal scoped rifle around trying to follow the movements of a called animal. There's more to it than that.
Are you people getting the drift here, or do I need a different approach? Whatever is your method of viewing the animal, from a scoped rifle with a spotlight attached, to thousands of dollars worth of tech gear, you have not solved the puzzle with your expensive investment. It's going to take two instruments and a team to make this thing work.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on September 02, 2020, 01:40 PM:
I'm following closely as to what you have to say. And have changed my mind two or three times now on this night hunting thing.
One question though. You mention a two man team. What about a lone hunter at night? Is this doable or way too difficult to attempt with any chance of success? I ask because 95% of the time I hunt alone.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 02, 2020, 02:16 PM:
Well, when I started, we always have hunted BLM public wilderness and there are a lot of reasons to not sally forth all by yourself. Bad weather, breakdowns, accidents, getting lost and plenty of other reasons to have a partner. Not that I have not hunted by myself, but the attitude is very different, kinda like putting 'er in 4 wheel and just making it farther to walk out.
Anyway, I mentioned somewhere that in my opinion, if you have the urge to hunt alone, at night, I suggested purchasing a pair of night vision goggles , as sophisticated as your budget allows. Then, turn on your Foxpro and slowly rotate in circles with a shotgun and #4 Buck.
If you really want to do it, this is the technique, start facing your most likely direction. Then, twist your body to the right so that you are looking behind you. Then, slowly begin in a counter clockwise direction to 12 o'clock and continuing al the way until you have twisted to the left and looking behind you at your "six". Try to do this with as few steps as possible and then go back towards the front, (your 12 o'clock, and continue past to the left until you are looking behind you. Then stop and go back in the counter clockwise direction.
This should help to keep you from developing vertigo. I particularly advise that you do not just keep turning in a circle. Starting facing forward and turning behind you and then back to the front and continuing all the way until you are looking behind yourself from the left side. This is just the best way to keep your head in the game. You always know where your front is and where behind you is. Of course, if you might pick up eyes at 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock, you have to shuffle around to face the approach, but until you do, it's important to maintain the cycle, and you might count the revolutions? I do. My mistake, they aren't really revolutions maybe call them cycles? You start behind you and end behind you, then go back the other way. After you do it, you will understand the logic.
Good hunting. El Bee
I'm rereading this and suddenly thought to mention the impulse or the urge to constantly worry about what's behind you! That is something that will definitely cross your mind more than once!
[ September 02, 2020, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 02, 2020, 02:53 PM:
FWIW;
What little solo night hunting I've done, I mounted the light on a tri-pod with a decent swivel pan head.
First lesson learned ........... you MUST stay behind the light or you'll illuminate yourself.
Second lesson learned ........... Picture in your mind a one man Chinese fire drill. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 02, 2020, 03:54 PM:
ALL THAT, AND CHINESE FIRE DRILL! HELLO?
....a notched arrow in a bow in your left hand and then a Weems All Call clamped in your teeth! Keeping your finger off the trigger until at full draw. Swat mosquitoes with your other hand!
I can envision all the above, then tracking a blood trail by Braille, or if your trusty rescue pup has any talent at all.
How many did you say that you killed that way?
Good hunting. El Bee
But, PS at night, a partner is a distinct advantage!
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 02, 2020, 07:19 PM:
All together ........... none.
An interesting experience but just not my 'thing'.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 03, 2020, 07:38 AM:
Yeah, I get it. Like the sticks and string ain't my thing. I think firearms are awesome.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: you know, I really don't understand why night hunting is such a non starter for so many people? To me, it's way more actual exciting than day stands.
It's like this discussion. It's very hard to even convey the whole enchilada to people that have the attitude ...."it's just not my thing" like crochet isn't my thing either. But, if done right, if people got a proper introduction then I think they would appreciate how difficult it is, and there is an undeniable THRILL involved.
I have been to Canada twice, hunting wolves with a man who hasn't posted in quite a while. He came down here and we went night hunting in Nevada for a week. He got a little rattled, at first, and I know he's a good shot, but when it was all well and done, he said wow, I thought this was going to be easy, almost cheating but it's very difficult, not what I expected, at all.
But, for some reason, people seem to be rather aloof about hunting at night, don't understand it and tend to minimize it. We have a night hunting forum here that is sadly ignored. I don't care, no skin off my nose, but it's there, free, and is by far the least visited forum, nobody even asks a question. BFD, I guess?
Good hunting. El Bee
[ September 03, 2020, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on September 07, 2020, 02:29 PM:
quote:
We have a night hunting forum here that is sadly ignored. I don't care, no skin off my nose, but it's there, free, and is by far the least visited forum, nobody even asks a question. BFD, I guess?
That was a great idea that I should have thought of to begin with. I went back to the night hunting forum and read every post on the 3 pages I could see. There is a TON of great info there. I copied the night hunting basics to read again off line. Never heard of Dykem until now. Also I found an old copy of Buker/Watson's "Hunting the Night Shift" on Epray and ordered it. At my advanced age I don't have 40 years to figure this stuff out on my own so I do appreciate the help.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 08, 2020, 10:11 AM:
Yeah, it wasn't my intention to write everything I know and think I know about hunting at night. Just patiently waiting for an inquiry and I'd do my best to solve whatever question the Peanut Gallery poses.
So, I'm still waiting....
As far as the Dykem. What's interesting is that the evolution was yellow or amber lights for scanning, and that's not a bad solution. It's not a bright aircraft landing spotlight and it's not the better red light that very seldom spooks them, but it can work.
So when this stuff was evolving, there was many guys that raved about "cherry red" spray paint. Of course, it would scorch enough in one nights usage that you would scrape it off and reapply.
I don't exactly remember when or how it came to me, but the sheetmetal mechanics in our shop used a lot of blue Dykem and the red Dykem was a kind of code for aluminum flatwork. The thing that interested me was the wearability, this stuff was extremely difficult to remove on purpose, and (bonus) it was very high heat resistance; didn't scorch at all. Not only that but it could be applied in several coats and made as dark as you like. The only "problem" was that you absolutely needed the solvent. I never found anything else that cut this stuff!
So, I have offered my discovery to anybody, and you only have to try to to understand the advantage. It's really great, and if you add a rheostat or better yet a one or 2 ohm resistor on a three way toggle, you have a lightweight all in one hunting light.
I have never got into LED light, maybe it works better? But you still have the advantage of the red Dykem. I don't know why predators don't spook with a red light, it's just a fact, so why fight it?
If you use it, lay the lens flat so that any streaking flows outward to the edges. Otherwise, if you spray it on a surface that is vertical, the Dykem will run and cause streaks. Probably doesn't hurt anything, but again, why fight it? Lay the lens flat and any streaking will be a radius and flow to the edges. You will see what I mean when you use it. And, if you don't like your application, use the solvent and a soft cloth and wipe it off and start over. When you get it the way you like it, it will last for many seasons.
On the other hand if you really want to get cute, you will change your coating to match the moon phase, more or less coatings depending on the brightness of the moon. I almost always hunt during a new moon so I seldom change the coating.
Sometimes, you guys need to do a little experimenting. I can't give you all the answers for every situation, and it's hard enough trying to explain the reasons unless you experience it and then you will understand what I'm talking about.
Also, when it comes to lights, you will find that there is nothing available that works the way you want it to. It won't take very long before you will be building your own lights.
I watched a video a couple weeks ago and it really made me shake my head. These guys had a light that was three separate spotlights mounted horizontal. First of all, you really need a stupid coyote to come in under a powerful light like that! Sure a cat might not be bothered, but a coyote or even a fox isn't going to like it.
But, the worst thing about it has to be the WEIGHT! You just can't hold a light like that all night or for as long as it takes. A light weight light is a good light!
That's why, a lot of people use a superposed arrangement with a red flood and a tight spot and switch between them. There is a little trick in the wiring that I use that preheats the spotlight. When you switch for the shot, you don't want a couple seconds for the light to attain full brightness. That's with a high amperage pencil beam landing craft 100watt spot light. If you can't figure it out, I can help.
Good luck, El Bee
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on September 08, 2020, 12:44 PM:
Not so much a question,but rather a couple of opinions which could invoke some questions or at the very least a little debate.
I contend that it is not the color of the light but rather the intensity of the beam which leads to better success.
Also, the light does little or more than likely nothing to hide the hunter or truck.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 08, 2020, 02:40 PM:
I don't think so Randy. While I have had some, (let's say success) with a green light, it does not match red for an animal appearing to have confidence in the approach, ie: no spooking.
Yes, just about any tint if the intensity is reduced some way, usually via wattage, this will be a benefit. At some point, you have to be able to jack the intensity for, first, identification and second for precise shot placement. It doesn't matter a whole lot if you can get them inside fifty yards but some nights, they are just spooky and every shot you take will be at 250. That requires wattage, I don't care what kind of scope you have, you have to light them up. You don't want cripples anywhere, but especially at night, you just can't afford a cripple.
Then, we have this, which I am not sure what is stated or what is asked?
quote:
Also, the light does little or more than likely nothing to hide the hunter or truck.
Keeping the light on the animal will prevent the animal from detecting you or the truck. That doesn't mean that the animal won't detect you by means of scent or some kind of noise you might make, even the sound of a nylon shell rubbing the arms against the body, or however, it's a high pitched sound that can give you away. Better to wear wool or something that doesn't have a hard surface.
Anyway, as you make your 360's, there is always a possibility that you can be seen against many backgrounds and one reason why you would want to position yourself so that the wind is favorable and that you can get a tree behind you so that you cannot be backlit. This all changes as soon as you spot the animal and get the light "in his eyes". This is not as much of a negative as it might seem, as long as he continues his approach and you keep the light in his direction enough so that his eyes continue to reflect, he's not going to see you.
You can prove this to yourself very easily, just walk out there and have somebody shine a light on you. You will see right away that you have no ability at all, to see beyond the light. You are essentially invisible as long as you keep the light pointed in his direction, regardless of the intensity of the light. He cannot visually detect you. The problem will prove itself on those occasions where you have another animal approach from a different direction. One of them, might detect you which is why you need to wear dark clothing and keep your movements slow and deliberate. Also, avoid jerk movements with the light. That spooks them just like talking might.
Lastly, my proof is that they come in and they die. they wouldn't come in, no matter your kick ass sounds, IF they could see you. And remember, they can see you a hell of a lot better than you can see them. But they won't see you if you dress properly and make an attempt to have something behind you, like a tree or even a boulder, whatever breaks up your outline.
So, if I understand your statement correctly, the light actually DOES hide the hunter and/or the vehicle. And, if I have not understood what you wrote, let's see if we can sort it out a little better?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on September 08, 2020, 03:55 PM:
I have performed those experiments by going out away from the truck and looking back at the light and you are right. I cannot see a thing when the light is shining directly on my head. However, this would be the time for the shot. When the light is directed above my head, I can see much better. Now when the dimmer is used, I can see really good.
So you are using the light at almost full power and catch some eyes way out there. Immediately you dim down and get on the scope. Even with very little light, you can see the eyes all the way to the truck or the point where you want to kill the coyote. The entire time, say from 400 yards to 125 or so, you are using the dimmer.To me this seems like the coyote has a real good view of you and the truck because I have already proven that to myself. You turn the light to full power and make the shot. In my opinion, the coyote is more likely to respond positively with the less intense light and he can see you the entire time.
Now I have 0 experience with thermal, but I have watched many videos. LOL. Most of those are filmed right through the scope because it has that capability. Some are by a bystander. In a lot of those videos, the guys walk to the stand with their rifles already attached to a tripod which allows them to stand up during the stand. They proceed right into a wide open field and begin calling. The coyotes behave just like they normally do during night calling. Now there is absolutely nothing hiding these guys standing behind their tripods, however the coyotes do respond and most of the time they get shot. At times there is some horrendous handling of the coyotes, but this can be expected by those attempting to buy experience with expensive gadgetry.
My point is this. With a light or thermal the coyote can see you, but a human has never been a threat during the night. Shine a very bright light on him and that does represent something he associates with danger. Keep the intensity low and your chances increase. That is the reason that thermal is such a game changer. Nothing the coyote can associate with danger at this time, but I feel that will change in the future.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 09, 2020, 07:06 AM:
Well, we aren't exactly on the same wavelength. First. I make an effort to hunt under a dark moon. Second, I use very low intensity red light. Third, and assuming that I'm wearing soft and dark clothes, the coyote does not see me. Period. He knows where the sound is coming from, but he isn't looking in that direction all that much. He is following his trail and since his night vision is so good, he seldom bumps into a branch or cactus.
I'd like you to get away from thinking that the animal is staring at the light (&sound) source all the time while he is circling to get my wind. Now, you have to use a little logic. If Mr Coyote could see me, he still wouldn't know what he is looking at. At this point, he has a one track mind, he wants to smell the rabbit making all that noise, or the coyote making that challenge, if you like?
The fact is, I never worry that the coyote can see me, first, because he's not trying to, unless during occasional stops while he evaluates the situation. This is something you don't want him to do, unless you are looking at a high percentage shot; and then, game over. But, I guess the main thing is that "they" don't act at all like they see me, regardless of the condition of the light.
One thing I'll throw out here is that you do not want to toggle back and forth between red and spotlight. This is for those that use a superposed system. Anyway, if you feel the need to turn on the spotlight, like for a shot, and it doesn't pan out, for whatever reason....you should leave it on. Resist going back and forth because, in my experience, that shit always spooks the animal. So, if you leave it on high and hold the light very high, just enough to illuminate the eyes, he will probably continue to work his way in, if he's at all hungry.
Frankly, I seldom worry about being seen, (detected) by the animal. Be quiet and don't shake the suspension, or slosh the gas tank and he won't be staring at you anyway. It's just not a concern, they don't think like that.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on October 06, 2020, 04:54 PM:
Hunt at night near town with snow on the ground and you don't need lights.
[ October 06, 2020, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Chris S ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 06, 2020, 07:18 PM:
Is that you. Smithers ????
Where ya been ????
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 07, 2020, 09:20 AM:
Yeah, I was going to ask if his mom posted bail or something? But, I'll wait until we hear the excuses. Like, what other predator board is out there?
Remember that photo of him in the dental chair?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: Maybe I should comment on his suggestion. First of all, you wouldn't get in much hunting, would you? Snow in the desert isn't unheard of, but thinking you will be hunting seriously on the outskirts of town, no lights, etc. Maybe you should bring a deck of cards just for something to do? Question: How many coyotes have you killed that way?
LB
[ October 07, 2020, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on October 07, 2020, 03:09 PM:
Hi kokopelli and Leonard. I like to check in once every two years or so just for the hell of it. All of the boards got too toxic for a while there and I just lost interest in looking at them.
I've killed innumerable coyotes that way.It's the only way I hunt in the winter at night. We get some good snow and an open field and you can see them coming 200 yards out. I wouldn't recommend it unless you're using a shotgun.
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on October 19, 2020, 02:23 PM:
Well I have hunted 1 ranch at night with thermal since the second weekend in July. Hunt it 2 or 3 nights depending on the schedule. So far we are at 72 and counting. We lost two additional coyotes due to poor shot placement. We have shot two coyotes beyond 400 yards. And several in that 250 to 350 range. Your not going to do that with a red light. Can you kill coyotes with a red light. Yes absolutely, however you will kill far more with thermal over a red light. You can see them coming in farther away and that gives you time to get set up. Your effective range with a rifle is extended. We all choose our own process.
I hope you do well.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 19, 2020, 03:37 PM:
Hey Brent;
Are you seeing many dead rabbits down your way ???
We've got some kind of rabbit virus up this way that is really impacting the jacks and the cottontails.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on October 20, 2020, 03:43 AM:
At my age I just need vision not night vision any vision will do !
!LOL
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 20, 2020, 07:47 AM:
Is it any wonder that I took away your Moderator duties?
Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on October 31, 2020, 03:44 AM:
I do have a handheld Leupold Tracker 2 thermal monocular that I use for deer hunting. It helps you see deer before they can pop out on you and catch you off guard. I wouldn't use it for coyotes. Coyotes are too fast paced to go from handheld thermal to gun w/out making so much movement that you're going to scare the shit out of em. Deer are slow and you can see them through the thick stuff better with the thermal.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 06, 2020, 02:30 PM:
I keep seeing these posts about guys who are apparently mortgaging their house to buy gear for hunting coyotes and as dedicated as I am to my hunting, I just don't see the sense of that. After all, I know this web site where all these grizzled old bastards hang out who have killed more dogs than parvo using flashlights and dykum, or whatever it's called.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 06, 2020, 03:01 PM:
Yeah, that's true. You have to have a little perspective. When you spend thousands of dollars on hi tech electronics and optics, you are probably a professional wolfer, and I think most of them use iron and Wildlife services doesn't pay exceptionally well, last I heard?
So, if it's supplemental income, maybe $50 for a pelt, let's see....120 pelts might be worth $6,000 and that will pay for a thermal scope. I know a guy that makes a fur check of more than $50,000 a year, but most of it is in cats. That's Mercer, some may know him, out in Barstow? And, he's not full time, I think he has a legit job?
For 99% of us, the hi tech stuff is impractical, so if you make a decent living anyway and can afford to indulge yourself, thermal and NV are very enticing toys to play with. As I have said, if you really got t have it, there is offshore gear that will definitely work and as entry level, it's no where near as expensive as American products. Mine is made in Belorussia, and it's not toys, but it's maybe Gen. II, or so? That country is well known for their scientific manufacturing, as far as the former Russian block goes. I already suggested a scope and goggles and infrared filters and that should get you operational. It's out there, whatever you want to pay and it's up to you, if it makes sense, or not?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: forgot to mention, you misspelled Dykem
[ November 06, 2020, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 08, 2020, 07:11 PM:
Thanks for the correction. LOL
The biggest factor for me is how likely I'll be to get the use out of it, based on price. Hell yeah, I'd love thermal, but times are tight here with no chance of getting all that much better. Just the reality of things. I had the last three days off and, to be honest, I just stayed home. There was a time, like a year or two ago, that I'd have been gone before sunrise and the wife knew she wasn't gonna stop me from hunting. Just turned 56 - I know, just a pup to several of you - and my wonderful Cadillac cushy gubmint job has all but left me completely crippled. My knees and feet are so jacked up, the thought of the pain that goes along with spending a morning hunting just makes it really easy to say to hell with it. Used to be I could reduce the pain by walking when the muscles in my legs would life the bones apart in my knees and reduce the pressure of the thigh bone connecting to the leg bone. But recent Xrays clearly showed why that shit don't work no more - bone spurs where all the muscles above my knee connect to my tibia and fibular. What pain I reduce from alleviating bone on bone is more than made up for by stretching out those bone spurs. Y'all were right, getting old ain't for sissies, and I ain't really old yet. The future is bleak.
Now, I know what you're thinking. Just get them replaced, and maybe down the road I will. But there are two things holding me up. In the past two years, I've watched three different people I know fighting to keep a leg or their very lives because of failed knee replacements. One lady has spent mover two years struggling to save her entire leg and is still far from out of the woods. Another guy had one fixed. Went fine, Had the second one done and everything went to shit. Number three had his knee done 6 months ago and has now been told he will never walk again because of complications. Never walking again means dying early and after 7 scopes without issues, I figure I'm due for a fuck up sooner than later.
Nope, I ain't buying no thermal so I can shoot coyotes 350 yards away or more because that means I have to walk my sorry ass clear out there to get them, and I don;t do that in the light of day.
Kinda like hysterectomies. Spent a fair amount on getting the wife tuned up some time back and God knows I ain't got my money's worth out of that investment yet and likely never will. LOL (Don't tell her I said that, or I definitely won't earn back my investment.)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 08, 2020, 08:48 PM:
Lance, I have sympathy. As to your wish list. If you manage to get your hands on state of the art thermal. Look, it's really primarily useful for observation. You mention 350 yards, and even in bright sunshine, with the best optics money can buy, it's still not a slam dunk. I have always felt a degree of satisfaction in killing a 350 yard coyote. We hear a lot of chatter these days about ringing steel at 600/800 yards, and that's sorta entry level for the Macho guys with their what are they called? modular systems, and they are playing Delta sniper, and whatever. And, we know that hitting a steel plate at 800 yards takes some skill, but still, it's not under field conditions when we are hunting and have to make the most of glare and wind and estimating drop with hunting bullets. I have always said, yes, you hear a hit, if the wind is right, but that is the easy part. Now, you have to go find him. You have to mark your location exactly for referring back, once you get out there, or where you think he was? When they run, or when they fall in their tracks, they disappear. Another thing I always say is, make damned sure you have some kind of terrain feature out there, you know, for a mental noted that he was standing 20 feet left of that pine tree. If all you have is never ending CRP or sage and it's all the same, you might invest a couple hours traipsing around and come up empty without blood or body so you don't pull the trigger casually. And, if it's at night, I'm telling you, you have made a big deal, if you wind up dragging an animal back 350 yards, especially at night and if you are talking "thermal" it's zero dark thirty.
Thermal scopes aren't that precise, yeah, you can see an illuminated blob but for precise shot placement, it is not the best for center of mass and for sure a facing head shot. if there guys are banging away at a stationary animal, your chances for an anchoring hit aren't very good. Lot's of times, because of the lay of the land, 450 can look like 350, it's really hard to decide on bullet placement unless you have a 338 Lapua and some excellent ballistics.
In my opinion, I think you would do well to restrict your thermal shooting to more like 200 yards, Amigo. There just is no free lunch, and don't forget those thousands of dollars in lunch money you have invested. Go forth, and think rational! Wish I could be more enthusiastic. Don't throw away your red light and Dykem.
Good hunting. El Bee
UBB.classicTM
6.3.0