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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 07, 2017, 05:25 PM:
With their recent gain in popularity, I have been thinking a lot lately about how to address the issue of decoy dogs and what their best application is for the recreational coyote hunters that are so inclined to become self-proclaimed ADC men. So I guess I'll just wade in and hope I can get my point across without raining on the parade too much.
As a point of clarification and to not add any more confusion to this discussion, any reference from me about "dogs" will be referencing decoy dogs and not coyotes unless I am specifically talking about the dog (male) coyote. Coyotes will be referred as coyotes, not "dogs" and anyone who would call a coyote a "dog" obviously doesn't have much experience working with both of them together due to the confusion the slang term creates.
Like many closely held ADC practices (pup distress, locating coyotes, howling, etc.), it was only a matter of time before some within the ADC fraternity would find more importance in self-notoriety than in their devotion to keeping effective ADC tools under their hats for the sake of more efficient livestock protection.
Like most ADC methods, once they become popular with the recreational coyote hunter, they easily become abused, misused, and misunderstood. Particularly on You Tube where their is usually only a portrayal of when things work correctly, from the standpoint of decoying, but no understanding of how many times and in what situations it doesn't work. In addition you seldom hear anything from the standpoint of techniques to kill the highest percentage of what is called in or finishing the job by finding and taking the den of pups associated with those adult coyotes in the summer months.
In contrast, what you will usually see is a pair of coyotes that come running in and show aggression towards the dogs, one of them gets shot MAYBE, and the other runs off to now take care of the den by itself. The callers "high five" each other and think they saved the world by killing a single summertime coyote out of a pair.
Killing only one of a denning pair of coyotes, if it happens to be near sheep, can cause a bigger problem than it solved by leaving one adult to fend for those pups. In most cases, a single coyote left to fend for pups can enhance livestock problems due to the importance of finding a readily obtainable source of food for those pups. Killing one of a pair also makes the second coyote more difficult for the poor ADC man who has to mop this mess up behind the "high fiver".
Although use of decoy dogs is perfectly legal, there are some ethical considerations that should at least be worthy of discussion. First, if you are near sheep and you kill one of the pair, do you care if the other coyote becomes more prone to killing livestock as a result? Second, if you kill both of the adults, is it ok with you to let the pups starve to death or will you search and find the den and gas the pups like a responsible ADC person would? Most ADC trappers put in a lot of time looking for those dens. Many are found, some are not.
So let's start with a few simple facts about decoy dogs. You can have aggressive dogs and aggressive coyotes and you can have timid dogs and timid coyotes and each combination will give you different results.
Aggressive coyotes can kill small timid dogs or rip them open and aggressive dogs can and will on many occasions run timid coyotes out of the country. I know guys who thought the decoy dog thing would be cool to try so they turned their little Heinz 57 mutt loose on an aggressive pair of adult coyotes which made short work of the mutt. "Gee, guess that didn't work so good".
Decoy dogs are an ADC tool, not a recreational fur harvesting tool for those who think it's cool to shoot a barking coyote at close range. On many occasions, if used during the winter months, they will run a lot of coyotes out of gun range. During the prime fur months, most coyotes are young migrants and the older territorial coyotes elicit less territorial behavior because they are no longer defending pups in a hole somewhere. For that reason, in most cases, during the fur months, decoy dogs will cost you more coyotes than they will gain you if they have enough aggression to hold up to adult coyotes during the summer months. If they are timid and stay close to you they might not hurt you too bad if you can keep them from getting crunched.
When good manageable trained decoy dogs are most effective is from June - August when the pups are usually at or near the den area. It is also far more effective in coyote populations of older more mature coyotes which is usually not the case in areas that are worked heavily for sheep protection.
In southern Campbell County Wyoming, where I worked most recently, the vast majority of coyotes were yearlings and a very high percentage of them were afraid of their own shadows. You could be within 1/2 mile of the den and many would sneak off the minute they saw the dogs. Get them shot, roll their lips back and seldom were they older than 2 years old.
In contrast, in areas with higher coyote populations and more 2+ year old coyotes in the mix, these coyotes will show a lot more aggression and many times have a yearling or two with them which I believe, many times, is a pup or two from a previous litter that stayed with the adults. Roll the lips back on the adult pair and they are obviously 2+ year old coyotes.
So before you go investing in a decoy dog because you think it was so cool to watch them work coyotes on You Tube, think about when you will be using them and where and think about the mess you might be creating for a sheep producer or the ADC man taxed with protecting those sheep.
Hope I didn't offend anyone too bad. I am looking at what is best for the livestock producers in certain areas, not what might be fun for the recreational coyote hunter.
PILE ON!
~SH~
[ February 07, 2017, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 07, 2017, 06:28 PM:
Good post Scott,
I'm just going to hold off and let somebody else rip ya. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I'm kidding.
But, I noticed 6-8 separate issues to comment on, some positive and some negative.
But, always well thought out arguments!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Displayed Name (Member # 4669) on February 08, 2017, 10:26 AM:
I won't rip because I see this is close to the heart and real topic here but I will say some of these same things are real topics and close to the heart for recreational hunters too.
Point being I took a pure bred lab prob ten years ago that was going to be put down because it wasn't "making the cut" training wise for birds.
I took it and we had a hell of a lot of fun and I have some really wonderful memories of old blue coyote hunting. Did we know what we were doing, not really but we shot coyotes and I would go retrieve them because Blue couldn't locate a dead coyote worth shit. We had fun and I wish I still had him because those experiences were definitely "cool". I put $1000 into him trying to save him when he was 4 but the cancer was too quick. Cried putting him down.
Lines are meant to be blurred in life and very little is one dimensionally point of fact.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on February 08, 2017, 12:16 PM:
Not rippin' either, and can actually agree with Scott's logic. Having a 'pet' dog on stand is really just a novelty.
I pretty much stopped taking my dog at all, 'cept for fukkin' around lately on some night stands. In the day, he's off like a shot after a coyote, and that usually ends with not killing one. And being that NY has a season on coyotes, I can't even hunt my dog when 'decoying' might actually provide some (daytime) excitement...
Should add, there are literally ZERO gov't hunters/trappers, etc. in my AO. So, all of the valid reasons Scott offered about potentially undermining professional control efforts simply don't factor in. Not here, anyway...
That all said, this IS the US of America, and we are free to do as we please, within the confines of the law. So, I'm sure not gonna condemn everyone who wants to try to have some 'fun' with their dog, on stand. Heck, I have a performance bred dog, and LOVE to see him do what he does! If I lived where it was legal to hunt coyotes in the summer, I'd very likely take my dog on stand more than I've already done, during "non-ideal" times.
I'm aware of potentially leaving pups to fend for themselves, at that time of the year. That is not something I'd be thrilled about, and reckon the novelty of 'decoying' might wear thin with that thought in the back of my head. Heck, I want as many pups to live as possible! That means more coyotes to call, recreationally, during our season (10/1-3/28)
Just $.02 from someone who's a 100% fun caller, has run my dog on stand during our (not 'decoy'dog ideal) limited season, and does not affect gov't control measures.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 08, 2017, 08:32 PM:
That's funny, Fred.
You know, I took my Redbone with me one time. She chased off three coyotes and I never got a shot.
I left her in the truck and she locked herself in, I had a hell of a time breaking in, with her helping!
First and last time.
Good Hunting. El Bee
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on February 09, 2017, 06:28 AM:
Scott,
For the most part I agree with you. I use a dog for fall/winter coyotes for the last 11 years. Now the intensity is not the same as in the spring, I do use a softer dog in the fall. The dog works more as a sight decoy but with older males and females it can become interesting fast. I will admit that a dog will cost you coyotes in the beginning as some young timid coyotes will turn and run at the sight of the dog. However I have seen instance were the coyote get's mad at the sight of the dog and all the commotion creates excitement drawing others. I have seen instances were two coyotes would work together while one tries to steal the rabbit as the other lures the dog off. I have also seen instances were multiples have come in and because of the dog no one left alive. For myself a dog has been and most likely will continue to be an asset for fall/winter calling.
I use a dog in the spring, I kill coyotes with a dog and rifle. I spend some time locating prior and normally have a pretty good idea were the den is at. Out of the 12 pairs I killed last year 9 dens were located and removed. Dog was a big help in finding those as well. My male dog really seems to enjoy it.
We have a local predator guy, seems to spend more time on skunks and snake calls. While I realize not all federal predator men are not like him and a lot of them are very good, ours is not and my biggest asset for my business.
I have a predator control business and our state really handicaps us. No gas, no M44 no plane work. I have a rifle ,dogs and traps at my disposal. So far I have been able to stop every complaint I have had. Not all were easy, not all were as quick as I or the rancher would have liked. As you know every circumstance is different. I have to make money I have no subsidy and no one paying my bills or gas.
I have used everything from H-57 to pure breeds. Seems to be more the dog than the breeding, takes a lot of dogs to find a good one.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 09, 2017, 07:20 AM:
Very good post, Brent.
One of the things I'm going to mention when I wade into the discussion, is the self centeredness of various people. And, you did hit on it. For instance, Fred is a bachelor, and is very close to his dog. If having the dog running around the stand and squirting on every bush is counter productive to Scott's mission; well, that's just too fucking bad. Know what I mean? We can't lose sight of objectives but on the other hand, when his only joy in life is just being in the woods with his canine buddy, this is the kind of guy that can laugh it off if ol' shep runs a pair away from certain death!
In other words, some people really don't give a shit about sheep and like the idea of the coyote's roaming free as a bird and interacting with nature. This is why some assholes insist on reintroducing grizzlies and wolves to our National Parks. And, in some cases, it is debatable whether those top of the food chain predators were ever there, in the first place?
Put another way, if you raise sheep, which are stupid, that's your problem, not recreational hunters, (and taxpayers, BTW) responsibility. They most likely view predator hunting as a fair contest with a noble animal and don't view the outcome, or objective, as very important.
Pass a law; no dogs in the woods.... because it might cause a problem for Scott's efforts.
No, I'm being silly, but we have to step back and at least try to look at these things from a different perspective.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 09, 2017, 12:44 PM:
Leonard :"One of the things I'm going to mention when I wade into the discussion, is the self centeredness of various people."
I agree Leonard, to wade into sheep production areas with a decoy dog and kill one out of a pair and never spend a minute looking for the den IF YOU KNOW THIS WILL CAUSE FURTHER LIVESTOCK LOSS, is excessively, self-centered.
"To hell with the f***ing sheep producer, I want my fun even if it is on private land and the fur is of no value".
Good point!
~SH~
[ February 09, 2017, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 09, 2017, 05:03 PM:
Well I am one of those bachelor guys who hunts with his dog. My dog is my buddy, so I enjoy having her with me when I hunt.
I don't pretend to be an ADC guy. Wouldn't take that occupation if offered. I'm not knocking it, it's just not for me. I don't even want to be out there during tick, chigger, mosquitoes season. And My dog is too timid. She wouldn't last very long against an aggressive coyote, much less a pair. Turkey season starts up and that's even getting to the point of I'd rather be fishing, or even breaking out the golf clubs.
Mostly, I already have a full time job/career for over 30 years in the construction trades. But I sure as hell enjoy watching my dog come alive when she sees a coyote, and hell yea, I enjoy pulling the trigger on them. Yep, it is recreation for me. I am only out there basically from Nov-Feb for the most part. I may start working on the bass boat shortly, crappy season then Striper is real close. now
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on February 10, 2017, 05:10 AM:
One thing to add, regarding my AO...
Man, there are like 4 different groups of hound hunters that operate within 30 miles of the farm. With that amount of dog power scouring the countryside for a coyote to run, it doesn't take long for a coyote to equate:
DOG = DANGER!!!
Reckon that has a good bit to do with why we don't really enjoy much wintertime calling success with my dog on stand. Figure a coyote's 'knee-jerk' reaction when it sees a dog running at it, is to get outta Dodge City while the gettin's good...
Next time up, we're gonna hook up with a local crew and imma throw my dog in a coyote race. He's almost 7yrs old, but still has a good bit of motor under the hood, and plenty of track drive. Will be fun to try, anyway!
[ February 10, 2017, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Eddie (Member # 4324) on February 10, 2017, 05:52 AM:
Our local government trapper is so full of himself that he thinks he can walk on water
They been running coyotes in Okla. with sight and trail dogs for over a 100 yrs.
So for me using a dog for hunting comes natural.
As far as killing a hole den out we don't do that, got to leave some to eat all the dead wild horses that you people up north and out west keep sending back here to live out there lives.
Just had to throw that in there, those wild horses have made several cattlemen rich around my part of the country.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2017, 08:07 AM:
Yes, that's a point. I have seen herds of mustangs numbering in the hundreds, they do not need Federal protection. Same with burros. They take over watering holes and guzzlers and chase off bighorns, pronghorns and all other NATIVE critters.
I long for the day that our wildlife policies are determined by logic instead of emotion. When you get a group of female horse lovers together, expect a bunch of sappy reasons directed at feral horse protection.
First of all, I don't hunt during denning season, at all. But if I did, I would not be troubled by leaving orphan pups to starve. Okay, maybe they are adopted, I don't know?
Anyway Scott. Your argument directed at me is unrecognizable. I have never killed a coyote during denning season, you are talking to the wrong person. You might have a valid argument directed at someone that envisions himself as an amateur control specialist. In my view, both of you are a bit self centered, the novice and the professional. You have to deal with the real world, as it is. "They" ( the amateurs) don't know what you are talking about, but that's why the ranchers need you to take care of business.
You are wishing to dictate to a lot of people, rules that only apply to and benefit a very few. The few that can control their property but not adjacent land where dude hunters are free to shoot any called coyote without consideration of your particular concerns.
What do you want, a law that prevents anybody from hunting coyotes with their dog? A fine if half of a pair escapes?
You just need to live with the situation and quit whining about it.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: HOWEVER. Don't get me wrong. I congratulate you on highlighting another thought provoking subject. Your perspective is very interesting.
[ February 10, 2017, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on February 10, 2017, 11:50 AM:
Before this descends into what a worthless shitheap WS is, and the recreational guys get protective of their coyotes and damn the sheepmen, I want to derail the thread a little.
For you ADC guys who den- In the pursuit of absolute lowest achievable lamb losses: why do you choose to make a stand with your dogs before you’re feet-in-the-hole?
Knowing the skill required of the dogs, and the man handling a very dynamic situation with the intent of consistently killing the pair (more importantly, the pair and sitters), why make a stand until you’ve located the pups?
I won’t hardly get out of the saddle until I can be feet-in-the-hole. I’ll type up my reasoning for why I’ve gone that route for my coyote and sheep conditions, and I’ll post it as soon as I get it finished. I’m asking because I know there are some good denners here and I’d like to learn a little before the thread goes downhill too much.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 10, 2017, 02:42 PM:
Leonard,
I was only responding to your comment about "self-centeredness" because, as I see it, who is "self-centered" depends on which side of this issue they are standing.
This isn't some elitist position of me trying to provide decoy dog rules to others. It is simply to present the facts of the situation and hope they are worthy of consideration in certain circumstances.
If there is any "mean spiritedness" here by me, it is directed at those who claim to be doing predator control work, to justify being there during the tick and mosquito season or are using the ADC title to gain access to screw up coyotes and cause more problems than they are solving.
Consideration is all I am asking for the sake of the livestock producers it affects in those RARE situations. I don't care who agrees or disagrees.
As has been pointed out, in most cases, the livestock concern does not even apply because few areas in the west are actually sheep production areas.
More importantly, decoy dogs, if not understood to their correct application, can easily cost recreational coyote hunters more coyotes than they will gain them. That's just a cold fact and should be of value to anyone considering using decoy dogs. A recreational hunter can go on YouTube, see decoy dogs in action, and not realize that this is probably a denning pair of aggressive coyotes DURING THE DENNING SEASON that will act totally different in that situation than a timid migrant yearling during the fur season. I know this because I have coached more than a few guys who were ready to go out, buy a decoy dog, and set the world on fire.
Sorry if I over reacted to your comment but I think I know you well enough to know when your pushing buttons and you also had a pretty good idea how I would respond didn't you? LOL!
Oh, and quit whining about my supposed whining.
Brent,
Sounds like you know what you are doing. That's great!
Eddie,
Taking you at your word, sorry your government trapper has that attitude. Most all ADC men started off as recreational fur hunters or trappers. I know I did and sure as hell didn't forget my roots. Arrogance to the "what I don't know is not worth knowing" level is really a self defeating cancer when it comes to coyote killing. Anyone who thinks they have coyotes figured out doesn't know anything about coyotes. Coyotes, through their constantly changing adaptable behavior, will not allow for arrogance. The best coyote men know that. I appreciate where you are coming from.
WMC,
As far as "feet in the den", I would rather keep my distance until the adults are both dead rather than risk den movement because I disturbed the den area with aggressive dogs and timid coyotes that weren't having any of it "feet in the den" or not. When you start making hard fast rules like "feet in the den", it's just a matter of time before you find out that it's not the best approach in every situation.
~SH~
[ February 10, 2017, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on February 10, 2017, 04:32 PM:
Trying to consistently accomplish anything with coyotes seems to lead to frustration on some regular basis. And sitting directly on the pups is no exception.
I had taken a den in a rock pile three days previous on the spine of the ridge in the background. I spent four hours sitting on the rock pile, and shot 3 adults, but no wet bitch. The dogs fished out and accounted for 6 pups. Since I had no bitch to get a scar count from, and I never glassed up an additional coyote watching the antics, or heard distant howling, I chalked it up for success. That band of sheep lost a lamb each night for the next two nights, so I came back with den hounds and pounded the track off last night’s kill until we got caught up to a single remaining pup in a patch of quakies. Once the dogs caught the pup, this bitch came down off the ridge and made for an easy shot to stop the problem. She showed 7 scars on her horns.
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So I’m the first to say it doesn’t always work, and in that circumstance I can assume I was directly at fault for being overly aggressive on working that group at the rock pile where the pups were, and that bitch wanted no part of it.
But I’ve found that calling in proximity to a den based on ridge camping and hearing howling or audio locates seems to consistently kill fewer adults. Sitting on the pups generally kills a higher number of adults. In situations where the adults refuse to work the dogs, and I only succeed in smoking the pups, killing consistently stops or consistently doesn’t start in nearby sheep.
I’m curious why it is that I see this difference? Difference in population demographics? Terrain and high brush/timber at 8-10,000’ where all this takes place is not always conducive to good visibility for making stands but more shot opportunities arise at the den?
I’m mostly pondering aloud at this point. I don’t mean to derail the point of this thread any further.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on February 11, 2017, 06:25 PM:
Eddie, what county are you in?
Posted by Eddie (Member # 4324) on February 12, 2017, 01:36 PM:
North eastern Okla.....Pawnee county.
Osage county to the north just across the Arkansas river is we're all the horses are kept.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on February 12, 2017, 03:07 PM:
Yeah, figured you were describing some of the Drummonds.
Posted by Eddie (Member # 4324) on February 12, 2017, 07:31 PM:
My oldest sons lands lays next to the Hughes ranch up by Bartlesville. They got probably got 400 to 500 head on there land.
Where abouts you located CrossJ
Posted by btech29 (Member # 4148) on February 13, 2017, 05:22 PM:
That was an excellent, well written post Wiley, and I tend to agree with it.
I dont post here, or anywhere anymore. Im not even a lurker. I rarely post anywhere anymore. A buddy told me about this post, so I checked it out. I have a slightly different take. I have given this decoy dog deal a lot of thought, and it has brought me a great deal of misery. Im not an authority but I do have an opinion, even though it is worth next to nothing. I guess Im here to tell my thoughts on this deal. Just let folks know why I do it. Im not here to stir up any problems or any arguments.
I am a 100% rec hunter. I dont do any kind of ADC work. I just love to hunt coyotes. A dog adds to my calling time and I love being the only idiot out there in the 100 degree heat chasing coyotes. No one around but me and my dogs. I love watching them work, and killing a hairless coyote is just a bonus. I dont want to kill all the coyotes I call in. I want to work them again next year, and the year after that. The stuff I seen was so cool I got the bright idea to start filming it. No one would believe it without seeing it, right? I would love to take it back, but I cant.
I totally agree with what your saying about creating problem coyotes in certain areas. I also cringe about the thoughts of leaving pups in the den to fend for themselves. I try to do the bulk of my calling in July and August to help avoid that problem.
Ive hunted my area for close to 15 years, most of that time without a dog. I have never once heard of a calf being killed by a coyote. My states dont have any form of Government control of coyotes. No ADC hunters to create problems for. Have never created a problem coyote that I am aware of. If I ass up a coyote, its me who has to deal with him until he dies of natural causes.
I hate the frenzy of new decoy dog hunters as bad as you do. Im one of the Youtube guys you are talking about, but I still agree with what you are saying. Like I said earlier, if I could go back and smash that first video camera I bought and never have started filming I would in a heart beat.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on February 13, 2017, 05:49 PM:
Eddie, I am in Craig . I hunt alot of ground in Osage, but it is mostly central and nw part of county. I do alot of work for a pipeline that crosses through the SE portion though.....some good ground down there.
quote:
Like I said earlier, if I could go back and smash that first video camera I bought and never have started filming I would in a heart beat.
One of the most honest comments I've ever heard. I've heard it from others.
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on February 13, 2017, 06:10 PM:
Scott,
Thanks for the compliment, I have worked hard to get where I am today. I am not afraid to say I have taken lessons from G-Men and have benefited from their experience.
It was Bill Austin that is responsible for me pursuing this path. I bought his hand calls,cassette tapes and a video he had showing a dog being used on a denning stand and I was hooked. We spoke on the phone numerous times and he always answered my questions. I guess he felt sorry for a dumb kid from the midwest. Coyote vocals and hunting coyotes has been an obsession ever since.
I do understand your frustration seeing it from both sides of the fence. All we can do is adapt and change. The coyotes are going too!!
Brent
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2017, 08:03 PM:
Boy, we have opinions from all over the map on this one. Funny thing is, just about everybody has a fair point or two.
But, you know, the amateurs with their dog pal really aren't out there all that much, are they? So, how much actual damage do they do? Maybe it's worse than I know about?
I'll tell you one thing, now that I think about it. That's exactly what Higgins does, mainly on purpose. He has said many times, I just like to mess with their little minds. That doesn't necessarily include killing them. In fact years ago, he used to shoot them with paintball guns. Until somebody pointed out to him that it was against AZ game laws to harass animals in any way. I suppose you could include "calling" them, even if you just let them go without killing them.
Anyway, Scott. Food for thought. For sure, it's harder than it looks. But, no doubt, it's amazing to watch how completely absorbed the coyotes get with the dogs, while they totally ignore the humans. PRIORITIES !
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: I just happened to think. the big deal about calling with a dog: How easy it is the kill the coyotes. They are all pretty much chip shots.
[ February 13, 2017, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on April 05, 2017, 02:12 PM:
Comment, and then a question for Scott. I had no less than six different people stop me this year and ask me about decoy dogs after they were directed to a YouTube video of same. In every instance, I took a moment and explained to them how the "pros" in hunting videos spend countless hours just trying to string together a dozen decent looking kills, and how the decoy videos rarely show the problems that can come from having a dog on the stand with you outside of denning time, emphasizing that the best information you should take from those videos is the parts they forgot to include.
The only dogs I've ever used on coyotes were either trail hounds or coursing them with greyhounds. Aside from watching Q's recovery terriers work one once, I don't have any experience with this and don't want any because, having trained, run, and competed coon hounds in the past, I know too well how much time it takes, and time is what I don't seem to have much of.
I don't hunt during whelping and denning, but only because I would rather they grew up and were full sized coyotes before I shot at them. Having said that, I have shot a couple puppies when a landowner demanded it of me. I figure that chances are pretty good that each of them would have grown up to be a coyote someday, so I was just getting onto the problem a few weeks early. Other than that, this time of the year is for growing shit, not killing shit.
Now, to Scott. I know you have said that you don't do anything to compel a pair to move a den but do you ever take the time before moving in to take the pair to get them to open up and divulge the den location before you take them, to save time locating the den for gassing afterwards? I would think that would be the best chess move as far as time management, when and where possible.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 16, 2017, 09:09 AM:
C-dog,
Sorry I haven't got back to answer your question sooner. Don't get here as often as I'd like to.
The short answer to your question is Yes, it is advantageous to locate the den before setting up to call and/or decoy and remove the coyotes.
With that said, there is two huge factors that play into your question regarding locating the pups in order to take the den and that is the seasonal coyote population in a given area (coyotes that remain after heavy preventative removal efforts or lack thereof) and the age of that coyote population.
Due to the sheep production in Southern Campbell County WY and the continual assault on the population of coyotes there, that area has a low coyote population in contrast to other areas. This has been proven by recording coyotes killed per hour during aerial hunts where we are locating a high percentage of the coyotes taken. Aerial hunting coyote kills, over a lot of hours, is a pretty fool proof method of depicting a given coyote population in open accessible country and comparing it to another if the ground efforts to locate them and the terrain is relatively the same. The only way to achieve below a 2.6% recorded lamb loss is with an equally low coyote population. They go hand in hand.
As an example, in Harding Co SD the coyote population was .5 coyotes killed per hour of aerial hunting for many years when they had an excellent trapper covering that county and a solid aerial hunting program. That was exactly where the coyote population needed to be in order to minimize livestock losses. After the destruction of the SD ADC program by a GF&P administration that didn't believe in predator control, the coyote population in Harding Co. is now at about 5 coyotes killed per hour, sheep numbers there have declined by 27% since 2009, and the county is now filled with guard dogs to attempt to protect the remaining sheep which make it difficult to remove coyotes.
Second, because the population in Southern Campbell County was kept that low, the population you are dealing with is mostly migrant yearlings that fill the voids as those voids are created. With plenty of territory, habitat, and food to themselves and due to their younger age, their lack of aggression is noticeable.
Next factor to consider is that I didn't take many dens in Southern Campbell County (5-7 per year average) because with 2 trappers working the south half of that county we killed most of the bred females before they ever had a chance to pup. Any rancher in that area will call you as soon as they hear or see coyotes. You can't hide them from a sheep producer for very long.
Show me a man that takes a lot of coyote dens and I will show you a man that couldn't or didn't kill enough bred females before they denned. It all comes down to livestock loss being the tell all measure of the quality of ADC service and how low coyote populations in a given area contribute to that.
Now add in that I was working two dogs that became pretty aggressive towards the end, and a host of piss poor dogs before that.
What does all this mean? It means there is a lot of factors that play into whether or not anyone is successful with decoy dogs. Increase the population, increase the number of breeding pairs and competitiveness/territorial behavior, and increase the age of the coyote population due to reduced control efforts, and you have much better opportunities to locate pups and better results with decoy dogs.
My best decoy dog experiences were in SD by far. In WY, most of the coyotes that I decoyed were young coyotes and unwilling to work a pair of decoy dogs like an older more aggressive coyote pair would. In hindsight, I would have had more success, on those rare dens, had I used one dog as opposed to a pair. I can honestly say that decoy dogs cost me as many coyotes as they gained me in that situation. Lessons learned!
Prolly more information than you wanted or needed. Lol!
~SH~
[ April 16, 2017, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 16, 2017, 03:40 PM:
quote:
Show me a man that takes a lot of coyote dens and I will show you a man that couldn't or didn't kill enough bred females before they denned.
Do tell...
Or could be, show me a man that doesn't take many dens and I will show you a man that couldn't or isn't capable of finding one.
I'll have to tell some of the big time dennners like Robbie Campbell, Rock Buckingham, Tim Fish, or Cenney Burnell that they are or were doing it all wrong.
[ April 16, 2017, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 16, 2017, 06:21 PM:
Yeh, do tell Cal!
Those mystery dens that are not being found by myself, the landowners, or the pilots and they are supposedly camped close to the sheep and not killing. Humm, must be silent ones on a vegetarian diet huh? Great view from no sheep easy street huh?
As I said, coyotes killed per hour by the airplane and lambs weaned tells the population story. Believe what you want, could care less.
You took 75% of your coyotes on the ground, so did I.
~SH~
[ April 16, 2017, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 16, 2017, 07:03 PM:
Cal,
Knowing you as I do, allow me to clarify one word for you before you invariably take it out of context.
The word "couldn't", within the context of my quote doesn't mean "does not have the ability to", the word "couldn't" means that the workload, hours available, aerial hours available, coyote population, terrain, dispersion from surrounding areas, etc. etc. does not allow for the removal of more coyotes prior to denning. Otherwise, why would anyone wait when those coyotes can be killing plenty of range born lambs before docking??
While you are spinning this to those mentioned, might ask them whether they shoot more coyotes from the plane in Natrona County or Southern Campbell County and whether or not there is a constant influx of coyotes moving off the Bighorns that might contribute to a higher number of dens than one would like if given the option to remove them earlier?
Differences in population might also be the reason trappers in Converse County don't take more dens than they do. Once again, number of dens taken goes hand in hand with differences in coyote populations as proven by aerial hunts.
Maybe, just maybe these variables are a contributing factor far more than "WHAT SOMEONE WANTS TO BELIEVE".
While we are discussing this, allow me to quote another WY county trapper who, at a ADMB board, made a statement that would qualify as one of the most ignorant statements ever made about coyotes when considering differences in populations from area to area (paraphrasing) "those counties with trappers that are only taking 50 coyotes a year should be getting rid of those guys and hiring trappers that can kill more coyotes". LOL! As if they have never been anywhere that 4 - 6 coyotes is considered an excellent day with the plane.
Would you think it would be fair for someone to say, "those counties with trappers taking 500 - 600 coyotes, they should get rid of those guys because those guys obviously can't keep their coyote populations under control".
That would be just as arrogant and just as ignorant without considering all the variables wouldn't it??? Funny how those two human characteristics seem to go hand in hand.
~SH~
[ April 16, 2017, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 17, 2017, 06:10 AM:
Do I detect a slight quarrel between friends? I would hope not!
One thing about folks that have something on the ball; they have opinions. Does that mean Friend A is right and Friend B is therefore, full of shit? The answer to that is above my pay grade.
Interesting. LB
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 17, 2017, 07:16 AM:
I think that the above posts validate my comments about nuggets of advice being given verrrry carefully. Both of those guys are on a coyote level way beyond most casual caller's comprehension and I'm guessing that both are right in their own time & place.
Much to be learned from either one of them.
Likewise, even a first year caller might stumble onto something useful that I can use.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 18, 2017, 05:18 AM:
No quarrel LB, I just call bullshit when I see bullshit. Been a downfall of mine my whole life.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 18, 2017, 07:09 AM:
Boy, Howdy! That's a good one!
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 19, 2017, 02:29 AM:
1. More coyotes within 4 miles of sheep = more dens available to take within 4 miles of sheep
2. Less coyotes within 4 miles of sheep = less dens available to take within 4 miles of sheep
3. Every bred female coyote, particularly those beyond mid gestation, removed within 4 miles of sheep = one less den to take within that same area.
4. Coyote population in a given area at a given time validated by coyotes killed per hour with the airplane or helicopter
5. Coyote population in a given area at a given time measured by what landowners see and hear.
6. ADC Trapper performance measured by air to ground take ratio
7. ADC Trapper Performance measured by livestock losses
8. ADC Trapper performance measured by customer satisfaction
9. ADC Trapper performance measured by predator board satisfaction
10. Dens that are "allegedly" missed or not found within 4 miles of sheep would be seen and heard and they would more than likely be killing lambs.
No bullshit - straight hard facts
Variables to consider in the equation:
a) Size district
b) aerial hunting hours available
c) total hours worked
d) access to land
e) yearly and seasonal changes in coyote population dynamics (mange, dispersion, etc)
f) number of landowners covered
What someone wants to call bullshit will never trump the facts.
There is a lot of road between calling bullshit and proving bullshit. Talk is cheap!
Any challenges to the above information are more than welcome Cal!
What proves the difference between whether dens are available to be taken and simply being missed by a "sub par performance trapper" or whether the dens are not even there? Enquiring minds want to know.
Very simple question.
~SH~
[ April 19, 2017, 04:16 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 19, 2017, 05:32 AM:
Oh, and almost forgot
11) Show me an increase in fox numbers (absent mange and other disease issues) and I will show you a decrease in coyote numbers.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 19, 2017, 01:53 PM:
I think any dummy can agree with #11. I agree with #11.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 21, 2017, 05:00 AM:
Sorry Leonard, but along with the rest number 11 is wrong too.
Absent mange and disease (as stated),
fox populations are controlled by rodent populations, not coyotes. In times of extreme high rodent and rabbit populations you will see an increase in all predators, even fox.
Extreme high rodent populations also keep coyote predation on other species and farm animals down, regardless of massive population increases.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 21, 2017, 05:54 AM:
Well, yes. I was thinking of the decline, all things being equal, but you do have a point!
These things don't have a simple explanation, but if there are lots of red fox and lots of lesser critters and if coyotes move in, they will thin out the fox, any chance they get. But, I can see that that is only one aspect, it's all (basically) dependent on rodent and rabbit populations, or there wouldn't be anything to talk about.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 21, 2017, 10:55 AM:
Doesn't matter how much rodent populations affect reproduction in fox and coyote populations, very few denning coyotes will tolerate fox in their denning area which is precisely why the fox in areas of heavy coyote concentration are pushed next to the towns and Interstate highway systems.
Want me to start presenting peer reviewed studies? Steve Allen showed this in a radio telemetry study of fox and coyote inter-relations in ND. GPS tracking systems showed very little overlap in territories.
I can't believe anyone familiar with coyotes would even try to argue red fox displacement by coyotes.
Along with the rest.... Haha!
Those who can't back their positions discredit and divert ad nauseum.
One simple question for the men you mentioned Cal, is it better to kill a bred female when given a chance or let her have pups and take her out in June so the numbers look better for those who don't realize large numbers of dead coyotes equal large numbers of dead sheep?
That is the originally issue that is still on the table.
~SH~
[ April 21, 2017, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 23, 2017, 01:37 PM:
Let's see what is happening in the eastern United States in some of the remaining red fox strongholds as coyotes continue to expand across the country.
Don't know how many of you have heard of Pete and Ron Leggetts from Maryland and their impressive fox catches but this is from the Maryland DNR.
Culturally and ecologically significant species including red fox decline dramatically in response to increasing coyote populations. Eastern coyote and red fox share many common habitat requirements and occupy overlapping niches. Through time, the larger and more resilient coyote is able to out-compete and displace resident red fox populations. As a result, red fox are typically delegated to existence in small areas devoid of individual coyote home ranges. Diminishing red fox populations have currently been noted in portions of central and western Maryland.
The Maryland description is consistent with most coyote/red fox relation studies.
Phil Brown is a high volume red fox trapper from Pennsylvania, one of the few remaining red fox strongholds. In the last 3 years he has topped over 1000 red fox with a lifetime total of about 13,000 red fox.
I was curious as to how his fox were holding up to the expanding coyote population so I asked him what his red fox to coyote ratio was. Here is his answer....
This year 56 fox to 1 coyote
last year 112 fox to 1 coyote
year before 55 fox to one coyote
year before that 65 fox to one coyote
year before that 2012-13,, 219 fox to one coyote.
the last 15 years ,I have caught coyotes in every area I have trapped,in other words,they have popped up about anywhere in the counties I trap
I wouldn't exactly call that co-existence. LOL!
Research was conducted locally within the Badlands National Park on coyote home ranges through GPS radio telemetry studies to determine suitable release sites for swift fox re-introduction. Swift fox were released between coyote home ranges for potentially better survival chances, based on displacement research. Swift Fox populations seemed to be doing quite will at first due to the mange epidemic that smashed the coyote population. As coyotes recovered, swift fox populations declined. A primary mortality factor was coyotes.
Show me an expanding red fox population and I will show you a declining coyote population.
Yeh Tim Anderson, many people have seen red fox and coyotes in the same area during the winter when most are young of the year. You will be hard pressed to find many fox dens within a coyote home range during denning season unless those fox have safety zones.
Unless you have an incredibly high prey base and red fox safety zones, you just are not going to find many red fox dens within an occupied coyote denning area.
Coyotes do in fact affect red fox populations through displacement and that has been well documented.
~SH~
[ April 23, 2017, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on April 23, 2017, 03:02 PM:
Welp...Tim weighed in, so that is that.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 23, 2017, 03:50 PM:
That last comment baffles me? What Tim?
Anyway, I don't know anything about red fox, never even killed one although I have seen a few, and I mean, a few.
But, I have a personal theory about GRAY FOX and coyotes. They are totally different from Swifts and Reds because they can climb a tree better than a cat.
That's the secret to coexistence with coyotes. If a Gray has anything it can climb, be it large boulders or any sort of tree like Mesquite or Palo Verde, even Pinon Pines, it can survive around coyotes. The whole state of Arizona is a testament to that fact. You will find coyotes everywhere, of course, but if there are trees or big rocks, the Grays can escape a coyote and they will likely be around.
I mean, they are confident enough that they will eagerly come to a call even when the area is thick with coyotes. Just as long as they can climb a tree. Hell, they prefer to sleep in a tree, just draped across a crotch out of reach of a coyote and they are perfectly happy.
I have seen Grays flying across the tops of large boulders that a coyote would have to pick around below like a maze, but the fox scampers across the top and the coyote doesn't even try to keep up; because he can't.
You give a Gray Fox the right kind of terrain and features and they can thrive right alongside coyotes, and are better at catching the rats, too.
Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. By the way, they are dominate with Red Fox. They might be a little smaller, but they are more aggressive.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ April 23, 2017, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 23, 2017, 04:38 PM:
Don't doubt that a bit Leonard for that very reason.
When reds are denning in coyote country, they usually have a safety zone they can run to. They don't last long if they don't.
The exception doesn't make the rule. The rule is that coyotes displace red fox and swift fox if allowed free rein.
~SH~
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 23, 2017, 05:52 PM:
More....
Researchers in Illinois have found that as coyote populations continue to increase, red foxes are moving to urban areas to avoid competing against or being preyed upon by coyotes.
[ April 23, 2017, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 23, 2017, 05:57 PM:
University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Coyotes are belleved to influence the distribution and abundance of red foxes (Sargeant 1982). Sargeant et. al (1 993) reported study areas that had Increased coyote track counts had a cotresponding decrease in fox track counts. Major and Sherbure (1 987) reported simultaneous locations of coyotes, bobcats, and foxes that shared ranges maintained distances between individuals. Avoidance is believed to be the principal motive for this spatial segsegation.
In areas where coyotes and red fox occur sympatsically, fox tenitories are located on the edges or outside of coyote territories. These data supported the conclusion of interference competition between foxes and coyotes (Major and Sherburne 1987). Schmidt (1 956) suggested that red foxes are excluded or displaced from areas inhabited by coyotes. The fox seems to do well around human habitations because of the lower number of coyotes (Samuel and Nelson 1 982)
Schmidt (1 986) cited references indicating that coyotes kill red foxes, although he indicated that coyotes at-e an insignificant source of mortality. Sargeant and Allen ( 1 989) reported on coyotes' antagonlstlc behavior towards foxes and identified instances of coyotes kllling foxes. However, they also c~ted radio-telemetiy studies that found no mol-tality of foxes in al-eas inhabited by coyotes
Naaaahhh, coyotes don't displace red fox populations.
~SH~
[ April 23, 2017, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 23, 2017, 06:08 PM:
Smithsonian Conservation Biology Institute ...
If you are a rabbit a hunting coyote may be your worst nightmare. Coyotes are smart and efficient predators, but it turns out that coyotes and other predators also have a bit of a bullying streak. Coyotes will dominate smaller canines like foxes and push them out of the best habitat and even kill them (wolves will also do the same thing to coyotes). This extreme competition is called intraguild predation, because coyotes are preying on another predator in the same level of the food chain, or animals in the same guild, instead of traditional predation on rodents or other animals lower in the food chain (Ritchie and Johnson 2009).
Competition for the same resources is one of the fundamental concepts of ecology, and the pressure of competition usually causes similar species, like coyotes and foxes, to evolve slightly different hunting strategies or preferred habitats to avoid some of that competition. For example wolves hunt valley bottoms and eat deer and elk, while coyotes hunt along forest field edges and eat rabbits and small rodents. However, canine predators tend not tolerate species that compete even a little bit, and wolves will kill coyotes and coyotes will kill foxes when these species live in the same place.
Coyotes are effective intraguild predators with all fox species, and kill and exclude gray foxes (Henke and Bryant 1999, Fedriani et al. 2000), lower swift fox density (Thompson and Gese 2007), and compete with red foxes for prey and preferred habitat (Theberge and Wedeles 1989). Where coyotes and foxes overlap coyotes are actually killing foxes, not just competing with them for prey and habitat. Wolves have the same effect on coyotes. When wolves were reintroduced to the greater Yellowstone ecosystem, coyote numbers dropped (Berger and Conner 2008), and the effects of this change rippled out into the larger mammal community. Coyotes are the main predator of pronghorn antelope calves, and wherever wolves established territories coyote populations went down and pronghorn calf survival went up (Berger et al. 2008).
Even though coyotes affect foxes in the same way that wolves affect coyotes, they do have different effects on the mammal community as a whole. Since wolves (and other apex predators like cougars) kill large prey, the leftovers from wolf kills support a whole community of scavengers and omnivores, including animals as large as bears (Wilmers et al. 2003). Coyotes kill smaller prey and do not support other animals in the same way.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 25, 2017, 04:37 PM:
Well I can't argue with the "expurts"! LOL! I would guess that mange is always the main cause of decline in fox populations. It is proven to not be survivable by red fox. It is a death sentence. As are numerous other diseases. But we can blame coyotes if you wish. As far as the others I mentioned, and numerous others I know, they kill every coyote possible when they are heavy, and still go back and take dens out of those same areas and adjoining areas. It's just the way it is. Always has been. You seem to forget that I worked those areas for years before you and know them well. With a basically unlimited flying budget I killed every heavy bitch possible and still had plenty of dens available. It didn't magically change just because you were there. Since you insist on arguing about it here we can carry on as long as you wish. You know my views on things and we have had all these disagreements already, although it is far more enjoyable face to face over a cold beer. While I'm thinking about it, who of your experts did the study to determine that fox numbers were up in that area?
[ April 25, 2017, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 26, 2017, 04:56 AM:
Cold beer? Like Obama's Beer Summit? OK
Where did it say that Red Fox numbers were up, anywhere? Seems like that would only happen in the event that coyote numbers declined to single digits and that never happened before hell froze over?
I think there will be a "study" soon, telling us Red Fox numbers are down due to jackrabbit depredation. Creative ways for researchers to gain funding $ since they already used up the "METEOR" explanation, and GLOBAL WARMING.
<shrug> who gives a shit?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 26, 2017, 10:01 AM:
3T: "I would guess that mange is always the main cause of decline in fox populations. It is proven to not be survivable by red fox. It is a death sentence".
I agree that mange, when present, is a primary cause in declining red fox populations as well as declining coyote populations which is why I added the disclaimer "absent mange and disease..". In fact, I would go so far as to say mange, when present in red fox, is probably the biggest factor affecting red fox populations.
That does not mean it is "THE ONLY" cause of declining red fox populations as I am sure you would like to spin as being my position.
The same can be said for the availability of prey/food you mentioned previously. Of course in most years, prey is readily available for both fox and coyotes in most areas.
Coyote displacement, disease, and prey are all factors to consider in red fox populations.
So the issue that remains is, absent mange and disease, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL (prey availability, human disturbance, etc.), does increasing coyote populations affect red fox and swift fox populations by displacement? The answer is yes and it is far reaching within the US.
Yes there are areas that share YOY red fox and coyote in the winter months and the rare occurrence of coyote and red fox dens in the same areas but the red fox will have safety zones they can escape to in that situation or they won't be there for long. The exception does not make the rule. There have been enough red fox killed in traps by coyotes to indicate their tolerance level for each other.
3T "But we can blame coyotes if you wish".
Again absent disease and any changes in prey availability or human disturbance, an increasing red fox and swift fox population would be indicative of a decreasing coyote population and visa versa. No wishing, just a fact. Been studied to death.
Hard to argue GPS tracking systems that show coyote home ranges relative to red fox home ranges. Very little overlap. The research by Steve Allen and Alan Sargent, as shown above, is widely cited in furbearer management literature.
3T: "As far as the others I mentioned, and numerous others I know, they kill every coyote possible when they are heavy, and still go back and take dens out of those same areas and adjoining areas. It's just the way it is. Always has been."
Well then they weren't doing it all wrong as you implied. They do just as I did which is to remove every bred female I can to dramatically reduce the number of dens that have to be removed later.
My position was never that killing bred females will eliminate the possibility of dens later, my position is and always was that killing bred females will dramatically reduce the number of dens you will have to remove later. Another "no-brainer".
So the issue that remains is, does removing bred female coyotes reduce the number of dens you have to remove later? The answer is Absolutely.
So taking this further, what are the variables that need to be considered between areas that fill back in and areas that remain void of dens due to removal of bred females prior to denning.
Here are SOME important variables to consider:
a) What period of gestation the removed bred female was in relative to other bred females in the same area and surrounding areas.
There is two variables that play into this big time and that is how tied to a den area the majority of the other female coyotes are in the area. If 80% of the bred females have set up shop and are not going to move to another den area because they are late in gestation themselves, this reduces the movement.
If you kill a bred female early in gestation and the majority of the female coyotes in the area are early in gestation, of course you will have some degree of movement. The later you are in the year, the less movement you will have ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.
As a general rule of thumb, this is how I have seen it play out repeatedly in areas that are accessible to effective aerial hunting. Fly a given areas in mid January and remove 40 coyotes. Fly the same area in mid February and remove 40 coyotes. Fly the same area in mid March and remove 20 - 30 coyotes. Fly the same area in mid April and remove 10 - 15. Fly the same area in mid May and remove 5 - 7. Fly the same area in June and remove 3.
Spacial redistribution from surrounding areas starts up again in late July and Early August. By September and October, coyote family groups can move in from everywhere. Hunters really help scatter them.
Of course that "rule of thumb" is not etched in stone and the starting point will vary from area to area but the reduction in coyotes taken with each consecutive flight is very close to how it plays out in many situations.
Then you always have the normal close to 40% of most healthy coyote populations, mostly yearlings, that move around with no ties to any particular place at any time of the year.
In addition, the lower coyote numbers are kept in the immediate and surrounding areas, the less spacial redistribution of expanding territories you will have in order to fill voids created by removed coyotes.
Both immigration and spacial redistribution are considerations.
So what other factors need to be considered?
b) Coyote population and accessibility to surrounding areas which supply coyotes to fill voids.
Difficult accessibility or inaccessibility to coyotes in surrounding areas will have a dramatic impact on how many coyotes filter back in and how quickly. The better coyote control one has in surrounding areas, the less immigration and special redistribution will occur.
This is no fault of the individual trapper but rather can make one area more challenging than another and lead to more dens needing to be removed in one area vs. another.
c) workload
The size of the area one trapper is responsible for has a dramatic impact on his ability to remove bred females prior to denning. Again, this is to no fault of the individual trapper.
d) Aerial hunting hours available.
Depending on the size area that can be covered, the amount of aerial hunting hours available, in country that is accessible to aerial hunting during March and April, will have a dramatic impact on coyote populations in those areas as well as surrounding areas.
e) Hours worked.
Of course the more time a person has available, the more pairs they can remove.
f) Individual ability.
The ability of the individual to find and remove dens is also a consideration. Some are continually learning while others think "what I don't already know is not worth knowing" which limits their learning curve.
One of the best measures of ability one can look at is coyotes taken by air vs. coyotes taken by ground in the same area with consideration to a typical amount of total hours flown.
Good hands on the ground will usually take over 60% of the coyotes taken in a given area when combining ground and air take.
So with all those variables in mind, will removal of bred females prior to denning decrease the number of dens that have to be removed later in MANY situations. Absolutely. Will it eliminate den removal later? Of course not. Nobody argued any different.
The difference between a trapper removing 15 dens in a year in a given area and another trapper removing 5 -7 dens in the same area in a different year is more likely a difference in the coyote population as well as the differences in the size area each had to cover rather than a difference in ability as implied.
3T: "You seem to forget that I worked those areas for years before you and know them well".
Didn't forget that at all. You were, at one time, even gracious enough to show me many historic den sites that proved to be very beneficial to me in following years. To which I have given you credit for repeatedly.
So I have to ask, when you were gunning for the helicopter in that area, you should have found all these dens that I "supposedly" missed. Yup, found one on M's that I damn sure missed and a less important den on the river that I hadn't got to yet but you checked a pile of old den sites. Now if you were really going to make the case for a "sub par performance" on my part of missing dens, I gave you the opportunity to do just that. How do you figure your own observations into the equation?
Now combine that with landowner sightings, livestock losses, and dens found by KH and it all seems pretty consistent that I wasn't missing many dens as you implied. You are going to be hard pressed to argue otherwise.
3T: "With a basically unlimited flying budget I killed every heavy bitch possible and still had plenty of dens available. It didn't magically change just because you were there."
It did change. Two guys were now covering what you were covering by yourself before. That is a huge change.
Of course you would take more dens, because you were covering 2500 square miles by yourself as opposed to 2 guys covering the same area.
KS and I together killed more coyotes than you did alone, which is to be expected. There was also more coyotes back then which is proven by aerial hunting records of coyotes killed per hour. In other words, the two of us killed more coyotes than you in that same 2500 square miles with less coyotes available for us to kill. Why should it be a mystery that I would take less dens with less coyotes in a smaller area??
Go grab a beer and ponder it for awhile.
Also would readily admit that you are a better denner than I with better rifle and better dogs. Even with that, KS and I are still going to do a more thorough job than you could alone. If you don't agree, that's just arrogance talking on your part.
I will readily accept justified criticism but not unjustified criticism. Your "sub par performance" argument, regarding number of coyote dens taken, is one that facts just cannot support.
3T: "Since you insist on arguing about it here we can carry on as long as you wish."
Awesome!
You are the one who challenged me remember? You are the one implying less dens = less ability rather than less coyotes available. Of course I am going to defend my position to those who would take someone's word for it.
You see, I am used to dealing with cut-throat antics which is why I initiated the livestock loss survey in WY right from the start. I know how coyote numbers are used and abused and I know what they mean and what they don't.
3T: "While I'm thinking about it, who of your experts did the study to determine that fox numbers were up in that area?"
Already know where you are going with this so let's define "up in that area" and we will certainly account for your longer history in the area. I am sure you will have a better chance defending this issue than the coyote den issue so I'll hand you the diversion.
Just in the time that I have been in Southern Campbell, swift fox dens are dramatically increasing. Proof is visible dens, sightings, and increase in incidental take. Locals will verify as well.
As far as red fox populations, of course if we go back far enough, we will find larger numbers of red fox than current. It would be just as interesting to see how the coyote populations differed in the same time frame. I would also assume that the red fox population had a crash due to mange, like many other places, which had no relation to coyote displacement.
Going to be hard to argue one factor (coyote displacement) without consideration to the other factors (mange, prey availability, and human disturbance).
With that said, incidental red fox take is also on the rise as well as sightings by myself and numerous others in contrast to immediate years prior.
Regardless of the starting point, both populations would not be increasing to the point they are if coyote populations were also increasing.
~SH~
[ April 26, 2017, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 01, 2017, 06:28 PM:
You are incorrect in the fact that I "challenged" anyone. You knew full well that I would read your comment about a "guy that takes a lot of dens not killing enough bred females" and that it was directed toward me in general. I responded and should have ignored it. You can babble on endlessly if you wish, but I don't have time for responding at the lengths you do. I know swiftys are on the increase, so what. Apparently coyotes don't affect them much. The first ones I ever saw were down around Medicine Bow in a staggering high coyote population. Red fox don't den near coyotes, I assume everyone knows that. There's lots of places in this country where coyotes don't live. So with a staggering prey base the fox population is up. Again, so what. You can't possibly convince me that coyote populations did anything but explode while you were here. Blame it on whatever you want. I had numerous ranchers, land managers, etc. tell me how the populations were trending. If you want to keep hammering it out I can get specific and show exactly proof of those numbers. I saw the last few aerial flights there and the numbers firsthand. I personally don't think this is the place to keep this going, but if you insist we can . We can get into all the other phases of coyote control, like shooting percentages, calling, M44's, ground crewing, locating for the plane, tracking cripples for the plane, (and including finding dens of wet bitches the plane shot) and on and on.... but again this isn't the place, and I'm not sure that's really what you would want aired out here.
I never said I could outperform anyone, let alone any two. I haven't made any claims to fame about anything. I just try to do my job to the best of my ability. I try to learn constantly, but I want to learn from the guys that can KILL coyotes, not the guys that write studies about it. I've found that most that are good at writing studies, aren't really any good at the rest. Show all your studies to Bill Dixon, Rock Buckingham, or Robbie Campbell, etc. and see how far you get. You know that I feel that and we've had all the discussions concerning it. My job is to kill coyotes, nothing else, and you know how I feel about the rest. So with that I'd prefer not to continue this discussion on an open forum, but if you want to continue to poke the bull...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 02, 2017, 07:08 AM:
Good post, Cal.
I think you are probably right, no sense in squabbling over issues that are far too deep for the average person to appreciate. Kiss and make up, ya big lug!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on May 02, 2017, 07:18 AM:
IDK...I have noticed over the years that the best, and most, information comes out during a dustup on this here board : )
Mark
[ May 02, 2017, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on May 04, 2017, 05:40 PM:
3T: "Red fox don't den near coyotes, I assume everyone knows that. There's lots of places in this country where coyotes don't live. So with a staggering prey base the fox population is up."
So if red fox won't den near coyotes and there is lots of places where coyotes don't live, how can there be a "coyote explosion". Your arguments contradict themselves.
Much like previous arguments (paraphrasing) .... "Ahh gee, Scott is charging the board for too many hours (but less hours than me) which are very expensive (but less expensive than me) yet I think he should be here on weekends and Mondays"
I should charge less hours but be here more so that I can charge more hours??? Ahhhhh...ok?
Or how about this (paraphrasing) ..... "One guy can cover the south half of the county just fine" ... "when Scott was gone in Oct (which was a mutually beneficial decision with the board) K had to cover his area when he had his own work to do"
So which way is it? Can one guy cover the south half by himself or not?? I guess it depends on whether you are focused on livestock losses or coyote numbers huh?
When you throw shit against the wall to see what will stick without thinking it through well enough, you end up contradicting other arguments. Try to keep that in mind next time.
3T: "You can't possibly convince me that coyote populations did anything but explode while you were here."
If the coyote population exploded (implying a year-round increase in coyote numbers), why were livestock losses so low?? You can't explain that can you? Oh....let me guess...."garbage in garbage out.....livestock producers can't count" yada yada.
If you want to make a case for a "COYOTE EXPLOSION" in Southern Campbell County, you need to go back into the ANNUAL aerial hunting records (not your typical one flight to fit your bias bullshit) and see what the change was in coyotes killed per hour.
While your at it, might compare it to Northern Campbell County where the real "EXPLOSION" is, which has nothing to do with you one way or another just as any change in coyote population in the South doesn't have a damn thing to do with any efforts on my part.
Why didn't you find this "EXPLOSION" when you were in the back seat of the helicopter??? Hmmmm??? You told him right where to go. You can't explain it can you? Your dog just won't hunt will it?
Your trouble is that you think you can just spew bullshit without ever getting challenged on it. Not with me, not anymore.
3T: "I had numerous ranchers, land managers, etc. tell me how the populations were trending".
There is going to be a hell of a lot more credibility with taking annual aerial hunting hours and breaking those hours down to coyotes killed per hour in a given area than what "so and so said".
As far as Land Managers, there is always going to be plenty of coyotes in Alpha due to the timber, due to P ranch to the east (no access), and B ranch to the North (no access FOR ME TO DO GROUND WORK), so you pick off what you can with snares in C creek between 300 elk using the same trails until the cows get turned in. Excuses? FACTS!
Even at that, the timber is 6 miles from the sheep and still I kept T's lamb losses at their lowest levels WITH MY SUB PAR PERFORMANCE.
Funny how the facts just won't support the agenda.
3T: "If you want to keep hammering it out I can get specific and show exactly proof of those numbers. I saw the last few aerial flights there and the numbers firsthand. "
BRING IT!!!!
Like the aerial hunt in late Feb / early March where we had 9 guys spotting and we pushed the timbered coyotes out into the open. That hunt was more of a reflection on aerial hunting efficiency than a "POPULATION EXPLOSION".
This is so typical of your bullshit. You will argue it both ways. If I don't kill many coyotes you will use those numbers as poor performance. If we kill a lot of coyotes, it's an "EXPLOSION" of coyotes due to poor performance.
Typical cynical critical contradicting cutthroat antics.
Precisely why I surveyed livestock producers for their losses. I wasn't afraid of accountability or transparency knowing full well that those same numbers could be used to cut my own throat.
Let me help you out again. I checked 20 females that averaged 7 pups. Do the math. Yes there was a lot of immigration that occurred. With reproduction at those levels there will be an influx from any areas where they are not controlled. Short term seasonal populations in a given area does not an EXPLOSION make.
Bottom line, did I keep them out of the sheep. That is the only thing that matters to me, sure as hell not what you think from your critical throne of judgement in "no sheep easy street".
3T: "I personally don't think this is the place to keep this going, but if you insist we can"
This is the perfect place because words mean things and here everyone can see how well you back your criticisms and what's just gas.
3T: "We can get into all the other phases of coyote control, like shooting percentages, calling, M44's, ground crewing, locating for the plane, tracking cripples for the plane, (and including finding dens of wet bitches the plane shot) and on and on.... but again this isn't the place, and I'm not sure that's really what you would want aired out here."
Of course, do the innuendo. Create the Illusion.
Go ahead, back your play. Make the best argument you can for a Sub par performance on my part in the face of three years of less than 2.6% lamb losses. Let's show the world just how petty you really are.
3T: "I just try to do my job to the best of my ability."
You are very good at what you do WHEN IT COMES TO COYOTES. You have the best job for the best pay in the best area. So why would you resort to such cutthroat antics that did nothing but make you look bad? You don't have to answer that. You already did.
Somehow you think you should be judge and jury for the South when you should be thankful for what you have.
3T: "So with that I'd prefer not to continue this discussion on an open forum, but if you want to continue to poke the bull..."
Of course, a letter filled with baseless allegations sent to a few selected board members is more your style.
I kept it very professional and respectful, until I read that. Now the gloves are off. I wrote a response and tore your allegations to pieces but I didn't send it because I didn't want to put the board in a worse position than you had already placed them in.
Now it's all on the table. You can try to defend a defenseless position and dig yourself deeper or you can learn from it.
~SH~
[ May 04, 2017, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 04, 2017, 09:52 PM:
This situation is unbelievably sad. On the one hand, as a friend, I hate to see you guys going at it hammer and tong.
But, I'm reading all this stuff and it's extremely interesting. A lot of us guys, being recreational hunters, we never consider some of the work involved in a job where you have to justify what you do and what you have done, for the sake of the bureaucracy and the bosses, as well as the troops in the field.
Most of us never think of coyote hunting as a 9 to 5 job and it is very illuminating, about things we never consider.
So, as far as, "is this the place" to discuss these things, I can assure both of you, without a dog in this fight, that I think the whole thing is fascinating, like watching a train wreck. It's entertaining and informative, and as far as I am concerned you men can beat each other to a pulp (in a gentlemanly manor) and maybe ko ko can provide the popcorn?
Good hunting. El Bee
PS
Remember people, take notes; all this stuff will be on the test!
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 04, 2017, 10:31 PM:
These guys are on a level way beyond my simple 'find sign......find coyote' concept.
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