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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 03, 2015, 08:02 PM:
 
Hey do you e-caller guys, play a vocalization sound continuously or let it play for awhile and mute ?

I know this sounds stupid. I finally started using a Fox-Pro today. Yeah, I'm really-really behind the times !!

I've howled in my fair share IMO. Sometimes mixed with distress sounds, sometimes on just a few or even several howls. (edit) hand calls-howlers.

I'd appreciate what ya'll have to say.

[ January 03, 2015, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 03, 2015, 09:14 PM:
 
I've never heard a howl go on and on but I've been scolded over and over again for a good 10 minutes. I try to keep it real so it depends on the situation.
 

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Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on January 04, 2015, 05:59 AM:
 
I'm no expert on vocals by any means but I have used vocals from time to time and have been successful.

I've played Male Challenge and Female Challenge on the Foxpro a time or two and then shut it off and wait. Sometimes it takes a while for a critter to show up.

Pup distress has been very good to me. I let it run continuously.

Lately I've gone back to using a mouth blown call rather than the ecaller. I have a few Carver calls and the open reed allows me to use some vocals. For a guy who cut his teeth on a Weems Wild Call with only one sound the open reed is amazing.
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on January 04, 2015, 06:36 AM:
 
I have had good results with a call named pup howls its two pups learning to howl sounds odd but brings em most times. Pup distress I run continuous all other vocals are from time to time during the stand.
 

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Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on January 04, 2015, 07:52 AM:
 
I tend to go with the less is more approach with vocalizations.

Pup distress or whipped coyote type sounds get a little more play length, but not much over 20 seconds usually.
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on January 04, 2015, 09:13 AM:
 
Same here, I don't like to overdo things. I try to create a realistic scenerio if I can. My e caller buttons get a workout.
Mark
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on January 04, 2015, 09:59 AM:
 
Nothing is set in stone. I never use vocals continuously. Not saying it wouldn't work, in fact I'm sure it does in a few cases. It would drive me crazy though, sitting there with the same howl going for 10 minutes.

It won't be much longer and I'll start using a lot more vocals. Sometimes nothing but vocals on a stand. Like others, I try to create a scene that makes sense in my head. Sometimes a lone howl followed a few minutes later with some kind of pair sound, then go on from there. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. What makes sense to me doesn't always make sense to the coyotes.
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 04, 2015, 10:57 AM:
 
Thanks guys,

You know I've been calling with two guys who had e-callers and they let distress run continuously and we called in coyotes. Which to me seemed odd @ the time. Thus made me wonder.

Letting pup distress just run makes sense in my mind.
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 04, 2015, 11:23 AM:
 
More thoughts. Moe I hear ya on the open reed calls.

I've had this new caller three years now, just sitting here. I haven't hunted much lately, kinda went thru coyote burnout.

lots of stuff going on and traveling in my spare time. Plus, I tend to be backwards in regards to technology, still don't have a cell phone..Lol

Anyway my thought process was to get the sound away from me. Been busted a few too many times by coyotes that snuck in and were staring @ me the source of the sounds. Ten yards to my side or whatever creating a difficult scenario.

I always thought pup distress would be a good one, and that I don't have the ability-skill to produce that type of sound on hand calls-howlers.

Guess we'll see..
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 04, 2015, 12:11 PM:
 
Gadzooks! Lots to comment on, just don't have the motivation right now? Maybe later?
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 04, 2015, 02:12 PM:
 
Well go make some coffee when ya get time Leonard. I'm interested to hear your comments.

I try my part to make things interesting around here.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 04, 2015, 02:21 PM:
 
Yes, I know but I'm involved in some major culinary endeavors, for the balance of the day. No time for thought provocations.

But, go ahead and chime in, document and all, I'll get around to it.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on January 04, 2015, 06:36 PM:
 
What the hell, here's what I do for e-caller.

Type of stand: shotgun stand
Sound type: Let's talk about prey sounds for the time being
Distance: 20 yards from gunner

The strategy that seems to work best for me is a staggered LOUD sequence with no decoy.

First, I use a loud volume (36 of 40) or depending on recorded sound level. A loud projection insures that it reaches coyotes far away which seems to be pretty valuable. If using less volume, I feel you reach "fewer" coyotes. That's probably a fact.

However, I don't use LOUD and continuous in the same sentence for coyotes. I have found that much fewer coyotes come in this scenario. I like to project loud sound for 10 to 30 seconds and MUTE. The silence is important. I would only be guessing why I feel this is important, but my logs tell me this is much better.

Loud and mute and the average shot comes in at about 6 to 8 minutes.

Oh, if a coyote doesn't come in within 8 minutes; I know several things. He's either 1)held up , 2)ran off because your ass stinks, or 3) not in the area.. So, I switch sounds, and it works!

I always use a pup distress after shooting a coyote. I got a double the other day when using it, the second came in on a dime..

In terms of decoys for coyotes, seems its a 50/50. I've seen plenty lock into decoy, and I seen some take a look 100 yards away and run. Presentation is key, and I decided not to use them for coyotes.

I would be extremely interested in what the greybeards say about mixing vocals and prey sounds.



[ January 04, 2015, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on January 04, 2015, 07:34 PM:
 
FnD,
I am curious, what is that wire tied to your shotgun barrel?
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on January 05, 2015, 09:09 AM:
 
Yes, inquiring minds want to know.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2015, 09:43 AM:
 
While we wait, there is this to chew on: "mixing vocals and prey sounds."

If there be an expert out there, be sure and make your presence known to the Peanut Gallery.

Generally speaking, if using vocals, I start with vocals. After an indeterminate time, I may introduce a female invitation, or whatever you might want to call it?

But prey sounds have a place in my stand strategy. Few people mention time of day when deciding to go with vocals, exclusively. I prefer a group yip howl bright and early...because that's usually when I hear the real deal.

Otherwise, a pair howling or a young coyote or a female is employed after prime time. Prime time, AZ, (for me, at least) is: crack of dawn until 9:30/10:00. After that, it is decidedly warmer and the action tends to fall off. On those cold clear mornings, enjoy it as long as it lasts and, for me, prey sounds are in order.

For me, vocals are (for sure) a solution when nothing is happening. You can't poison the well, used judiciously. As I have opined before, while coyotes become educated to prey sounds, (quote: they have all heard "Lightning Jack") they always think there is a coyote, over yonder. Cross your fingers these PM assholes don't fuck up that for everybody.

Like I said before, I had a rancher claim his coyotes had never been called. What he meant was, nobody had sat under a bush with a rifle and made an attempt. After two days in which every coyote we saw was running away and it was obvious we were dealing with very educated coyotes, the man let slip.

He was in the habit of visiting his cows every day, feeding and caring and moving them between pastures. While so engaged, he would place his Foxpro on the hood of his truck for perhaps hours at a time, scaring close coyotes and eventually attracting curious animals from distant points of the compass. Day in, day out, there wasn't a coyote within miles that had not heard "Lightning Jack" many times.

The level of cluelessness was astounding, and I may never recover from the experience.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on January 05, 2015, 09:44 AM:
 
Oh, that's my camera mount for the contour.. I get awesome video when a coyote runs up to the caller!

Yes, the camera survives just fine..
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2015, 09:53 AM:
 
So, they are asking about the tie wraps? I have been looking for a "wire" all morning.

One other thing, you are using one extended choke tube top barrel, the lower barrel, a shorter one, or what? So confusing! So...Clever Gary, as it were.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on January 05, 2015, 11:25 AM:
 
Is that a little too redneck for you guys?

First, that's a combo gun. Baikal MP94. Top barrel 12 gauge with Carlson full choke. Patterns excellent.

Lower barrel is a .223" and is actually almost .5 MOA barrel.

The "wire" is actually plastic zip ties that gently hugs the barrel..

I tell you what guys, that's an awesome gun for thicker cover.. In shotgun stands, it works fabulous. I kill many more with that extra .223 barrel. Fuck carry two guns into the field.

[ January 05, 2015, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on January 05, 2015, 11:54 AM:
 
Fur...How does that scope work out when it comes time to shoot a fast moving coyote with the shotgun?
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on January 05, 2015, 11:57 AM:
 
The electricians call them wire ties around here, I usually use their lingo to get them for free.

Kind of like some people call a water fountain a bubbler.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2015, 12:02 PM:
 
Instinctive "pointing" come to mind? If I did that setup, I might choose a 1X6 or ?

edit: but I agree, big scope. Not to be critical, however because according to the member, it is working fine.

[ January 05, 2015, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on January 05, 2015, 12:05 PM:
 
Mr. Shaw, it works better than expected. Its a Leupold 2x to 7x shotgun (or muzzleloader)scope, I leave it on 2X for shotgun stands. I really don't have issues getting fur into the scope..

One key is that I usually have a bi-pod , so a lot of times, they run into the scope..

This is my go to gun in thick AZ..
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 05, 2015, 12:08 PM:
 
Leonard, your post about the rancher and his Fox Pro was very interesting.

About a month ago a guy I'll call a cattle-farmer was in @ the parts counter, talking about coyotes making him nervous.

He goes on to say he went and got himself one of those fancy $500 dollar Fox Pro's and still can't call in a coyote. One of the other guys was helping him and said go talk to me.

Anyway, I say well Bob how are you setting up your calling stands ? He says what do you mean ?

We'll turns out he sits the caller on the hood, leaves his diesel pickup running and sits in the cab, with his rifle poking out the window.

Now the ol' boy has bad knees and such. I really didn't know what to say as to not offend him.

I'm perplexed..

[ January 05, 2015, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2015, 12:27 PM:
 
Dave, that's the exact same story I got from "Clem". Right down to leaving the Diesel running while he did his chores, all while expecting coyotes to run to him for a free meal. What's that definition of Insanity? Maybe he thought; "Golly must not be any coyotes around here?"
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 05, 2015, 12:45 PM:
 
I'm not being a hater. The question begs, how many of these guys would be doing these activities if all they had was hand calls ?

I wonder about a lot of stuff lately.
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on January 05, 2015, 01:23 PM:
 
Hand calls have their place.. but not in shotgun stands (IMHO) Why have a dog ambush you when you can ambush them with an ecaller?

On rifle stands , hand calls are awesome .. Sounds like I'm about to get into terrible in here.. ;-(
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on January 05, 2015, 01:35 PM:
 
If hand calls were the only thing available, we would only have a quarter (if that) of the predator hunters we do today.

On that note, I heard a while back that California may look into banning E calls all together? Just like gray fox, I think a California club had something to do with that?( the no ecalls for gray fox thing)
Mark

[ January 05, 2015, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
 

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Posted by booger (Member # 3602) on January 05, 2015, 01:48 PM:
 
I guess I will put myself out there and tell you the sequence I used a couple of weeks ago with my 'new' CS-24 I bought from Jim.

The morning I called the double was extra cold, and very windstill. I used female interrogation howls for about 15 seconds followed by about 2 minutes of silence.

After the silence, I followed up with the Adult Cottontail and said coyotes came burning in within about 5 minutes of the distress sound being started.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on January 05, 2015, 01:54 PM:
 
Electronic calls did for predator hunting what DP's and cages did for trapping.

If everyone had to learn with handcalls/footholds, there would be a whole lot fewer trying and becoming overnight experts.
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on January 05, 2015, 02:04 PM:
 
Booger, that is one of my go to combos. I also like to follow up some howls with pup distress, or whines. Also, a couple howls followed up with a gray fox fight sequence of some kind works great. Heck, gray fox anything works good for coyotes around here.
Mark

[ January 05, 2015, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 05, 2015, 02:12 PM:
 
Booger-Tim, thanks that scenario has also served me well with hand calls and I'm sure, work equally as well with an e-call, like I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in results now that I'm not the source of the sound. The caller is.

My comment about hand calls, was more directed towards folks like we talked about on the 1st page, sitting Fox Pro's on hoods and such.

(edit) Mark & Randy very good points. Oh' yeah e-calls are illegal to use on Wolves here, Huh ?

Who gives a shit ? Like that would make some remarkable difference..

[ January 05, 2015, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2015, 02:45 PM:
 

quote:

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Hand calls have their place.. but not in shotgun stands (IMHO) Why have a dog ambush you when you can ambush them with an ecaller?

On rifle stands , hand calls are awesome .. Sounds like I'm about to get into terrible in here.. ;-(

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Umm? Furdirt, you shouldn't feel that way. My reading of the tea leaves says you are well accepted, in spite of being thirty years too young.

And another thing. Go ahead and stick your neck out. Takes balls to stake out a position on anything, with these guys. If you get a difference of opinion, doesn't mean either you or somebody else is wrong. It's all food for thought. Some of the dullest shit is everybody agreeing about everything.

Now, tell us about those airguns again. That should be good for a raised eyebrow or two?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 05, 2015, 04:09 PM:
 
My dad and uncle call em (wire ties/zip ties) plastic baling wire.

Furdirt, I like the idea of the combo gun but never knew if they were worth it or not. The only experience I had with one was an old salvage 20 gauge under a 22, it sucked even as a squirrel gun.

I'm a hand caller and used to use hand calls exclusively for howls but since I was told about Cal's sounds, I rarely use anything else. (I'm also lazy.)

Interesting take on shotgun stands with hand calls vs e-sounds. How far can you see on a typical stand? I would think if it's that close a more open choke would be better ?
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 05, 2015, 06:17 PM:
 
Forgot to say my cousin got roped into a contest this past weekend. He was walking to his first stand right at daylight and heard two fox pros howling, he was between them. Then one of them started using his remote like a tv gooser, playing every sound he could find.

Second place had one truck already there and another driving in front of him. All on private land.

Thanks FP and PM!
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 05, 2015, 07:11 PM:
 
The farmer/rancher stories remind me of the time Higgins went to call that place in Idaho, nuclear research center or something, I forget exactly.

The idea was, there were these coyote research guys working up there and they had some coyotes with GPS collars and Higgins was going to call them and see how they reacted. But the beauty of it was, these coyotes HAD NEVER BEEN CALLED BEFORE! He was going to be able to track there movements synchronized with his calling.

Well, maybe they hadn't been called. But they had routinely been netted from helicopters, shot with tranquilizers by ground crews, captured for blood samples and changing batteries and retrieving data etc. They are about as cross wired and sensitive to any and all human presence as could be imagined.

Things did not go as planned...

One of the more interesting results, as I recall, was a coyote that as soon as the call started, ran away about half a mile, then circled downwind from a mile out and started yapping. Then, the interesting part, that same coyote shadowed them for miles and miles throughout the day. Never getting too close, but paralleling the truck for the next several stands and yapping at every stand.

The same coyote.

Something to think about on those days you get yapped at every stand?

- DAA
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 05, 2015, 07:12 PM:
 
Oh, and I'm weak as a kitten when it comes to using vocals. Some of you guys need to throw me something I can use here...

- DAA
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 05, 2015, 07:43 PM:
 
I would say 80+% of my calling anymore is some type of Coyote Vocalizations maybe even more. And i have seen my success rate increase quite a bit especially here in Utah. I to have seen and talked to alot of people here in Utah that use the running truck/foxpro method of calling.lol Really does make the calling more difficult in some areas.As the saying goes you just can't fix stupid totally applies here. Back to the use of Vocalizations, i definitely believe in the less over more when it comes to calling though. Just enough to peak curiosity.and watch downwind.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2015, 08:25 PM:
 
Dave, you have the facts exactly right about that research center. Technically, those coyotes had never been called. And, this dipshit had a PhD after his name due to publishing papers about observed coyote behavior. Yeah, real valuable information.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 06, 2015, 05:11 AM:
 
Given the same terrain conditions, I always figured that hand calls lent themselves more to shotgunning, than rifle shooting?

As for howling, I don't know much, 'cept for what's been said already. As Leonard described, I like to pick a sound that mimicks the local coyotes, and use it accordingly and with regard to time of day.
And as Jim described, I like to employ specific sound(s) to "paint a picture", a scenario that makes sense in my head. Then, hope that it makes sense enough to a coyote, too...

I think a more important topic might be when to NOT use certain vocalization(s). On par with what I've learned from turkey calling for the last 20+yds and elk calling for the last three years:
If you say the "wrong" thing at the right time, or say the "right" thing at the wrong time, then you've pretty much screwed the pooch for getting that animal to come to your calling...

Regardless of the critter, the key to calling is to learn their vocabulary first, then learn how that particular animal uses that vocabulary to communicate with others.

Think of animal communication in terms of how humans speak. There is a certain logic & decorum that needs followed for a productive exchange of information. In that regard, I don't think animals are any different than we are.

When we enter a new setting, we tend to seek out a familiar face to talk with.

When someone asks us a question politely, we tend answer in the same polite manner.

When someones shouts in our face, we either disengage out of fear, or escalate the exchange, out of fury.

We tend to speak to people on our own 'turf' differently, than we would on their 'turf', out of respect.

Etc. etc. etc...

Ask yourselves, are animals really any different???
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 06, 2015, 05:46 AM:
 
Question for the vocalists. I've always heard, and generally believed, that if you are using vocals on stand the standard 15 minutes isn't long enough.

What say y'all?

- DAA
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on January 06, 2015, 06:03 AM:
 
the more I use vocals, the more I don't think anyone really fully understands what they mean. I've had coyotes come as hard and quick to vocals as I have to any prey sounds. I've used vocals/howls over and over on stand and called coyotes.
One thing for certain, there is more to vocals than just howls, and those other vocals certainly work. A guy just needs to explore them to see for themselves.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 06, 2015, 08:35 AM:
 
Dave, yes, the experts say fifteen minutes isn't long enough. For vocals, for cats, for denning pairs. Longer is always better, except for when they are in your lap after the first series. Personally, I expect to see an animal within three and a half minutes. My confidence and my expectations bleed profusely, after that.

I guess it's what you need to do? First, you have people like DAA and Victor who rely on same old, same old. Because it works. A better explanation is, they know how to set up a stand, in their area, and get the most out of it. Like they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Neither of these guys mess with vocals, or, if they do, they ain't saying.

Also, ^ what TR said. Prey sounds are simple to understand, it's not language. But vocals is/are something completely different. Personally, while I don't roll my eyes at those that are telling me what it all means, the only thing that matters is that THEY have it figured out.

I could go on, but.

God hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 06, 2015, 09:26 AM:
 
For the record, I'm not dumb enough to attempt to lead anyone here to believe that I've got the coyote dictionary down pat, and certainly didn't wish to imply that with my above post...

But, speaking in generalities here, I don't think it takes much brainpower to be able to distinguish passive vocals from aggressive ones, and young pup vocals from adults?

We all have been around dogs and feel it safe to assume that 99% of us here could perceive the difference between excited "lets play" barking, vs. aggressive "I'm going to bite you" barking.

So, without attempting to break down the meaning of what every bark, yip, howl, squeal, or combination thereof means, I do think its entirely possible for even a nitwit like myself to figure out the difference between lonely 'contact' type howling, from aggressive 'challenge' type howling.

And we've all heard serenade/group yipping & 'assembly' type howling early & late.

So, without breaking down every sound to a single word or meaning, its entirely possible to get the 'feel' of a vocalization, with not much more than a little common sense. And once you have that basic generalization of vocals down, a little more common sense would help in employing those sounds to 'paint a picture' on stand. Paint it however you want, according to time of year, proximity to other coyotes, terrain, etc...

IE: Are you a lonely coyote, just looking for contact from any other coyote in the area?

Are you a pair of coyotes?
Are you a breeding pair of coyotes?

Are you a pack of coyotes, just howling at the Moon?
Are you a pack of coyotes, assembling to hunt?

Are you wanting to sound aggressive to trigger a territorial response from local coyotes?

Are you a young pup, lost & hurt?

Are you an alpha male, threatening any intruders to your territory?

Are you a couple of coyotes, fighting over a kill?

Don't have to know what every sound means in order to put different vocals to good use on stand...
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 06, 2015, 10:16 AM:
 
Anybody that thinks they can speak to coyotes is a fool.When i am using Vocalizations I am just trying to peak there curiosity and maybe confuse them a bit into thinking there is a strange Coyote in there area. Not trying to communicate with them. Sure certain sounds do that better than others but it's definitely not communicating with them. That's why I say less calling is better than more. I don't usually stay longer than the 15 minute mark. Hasn't really seemed nessesary. Most of my responses are within 8-12 minutes when howling. My brother and I have been using a little trick that has proven extremely effective in calling multiples lately but i really don't want to share on an open forum. Then it probably won't be as effective in the future especially with all the new callers here in Utah.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 06, 2015, 10:27 AM:
 
Oh great, Chad! So, send me an email.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 06, 2015, 10:30 AM:
 
PS along those lines; many times, screwing around, I try to repeat exactly what I hear, if I have a coyote communicating with me? Probably drives them nuts? And, it doesn't work, more often than not.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 06, 2015, 10:57 AM:
 
Interesting that you do the standard length stand with vocals Chad. Thanks for chiming in.

- DAA
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 06, 2015, 11:11 AM:
 

quote:

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Anybody that thinks they can speak to coyotes is a fool.When i am using Vocalizations I am just trying to peak there curiosity and maybe confuse them a bit into thinking there is a strange Coyote in there area. Not trying to communicate with them.

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quote:

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Not wanting to complicate the topic at hand, but I feel it is the fool who just picks a howl/vocalization at random & doesn't consider the response they're trying to illicit from the coyote...

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Come on, Fred. That's a little strong. In fact, just where is a man to start? You have to jump in, and work from there. I sure as hell wouldn't decide to use a particular response just because "Dead Eye" over at PMS said that's the ticket.

Everything I know, and I assure you, it's not much, I learned all by my self. Even then, I would not presume to power up the laptop to advise the Peanut Gallery how much I know.

So, people may think they have the answers, and bravely explain to the folks what they "know". But, all those assurances will be assepted as graven in stone by some and sumarily disputed by others that have actually had a conversation with a coyote.

In short, this is a subject where it's hard to find experts. Hard to have agreement, much less consensus. And, the exact same response works like magic in Kalamazoo, but never seems to work in Amarillo.

So, who's the fool?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 06, 2015, 01:22 PM:
 
Fur-n-dirt,
I just use lone howls and other vocalizations all day long very few prey sounds anymore. Here's one full day of calling using vocalizations


[ January 06, 2015, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 06, 2015, 01:22 PM:
 
Concerning what AR wrote above. Sure, pup distress may be the cat's ass, but If I have to use it on every stand, it's going to stop being such a powerful tool. Instead, I hold that one for specific reasons and situations. I think it's too valuable to be reduced to a standard sound used on every stand. Pretty soon, it will, (maybe) get to be the new "Lightning Jack", every coyote in the county has heard it. I might be full of shit because it hasn't happened? But, I'm a little cautious.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on January 06, 2015, 01:32 PM:
 
NO you aint full of shit LB. A few years back my partner and I placed 2nd in a contest. The top team had one more coyote than we did.
He told me at check in, we read where you like Pup distress. that's the only sound we played today....so yes its the new Lightning Jack....

Coyote Vocals - the next to last frontier.

Stay after them
Kelly
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on January 06, 2015, 01:38 PM:
 
Very nice day UT!

[ January 06, 2015, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 06, 2015, 01:55 PM:
 
Yeah time of day hasn't been that critical to success with the vocalizations, at least no more so than prey sounds have been for me in the past. Better in the morning and evening but still some success throughout the day. I actually have been using voice howls more recently as my confidence builds as i keep practicing at it. Have seen pretty good consistency with it. It is encouraging.
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on January 06, 2015, 02:02 PM:
 
Voice howling is underrated. Works as good as anything sometimes. Same thing with the Santa Fe, it comes thru town horn a blazing, and every coyote in the country lights up.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on January 06, 2015, 03:05 PM:
 
Saving a certain sound to only use at certain times in order to deter someone else from using the same one. Is that what it has come to?

If I am working through some ground and one sound is really working, you better believe I am going to use that one on every stand and consider each stand to be a "special occasion".

Saving these sounds is like me saving my 3/4 ton pickup to use on special occasions. Just doing my part to combat global warming.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 06, 2015, 04:31 PM:
 
Wiley got me started on voice howling a few years ago. I sound pretty bad to my ears. I mean, not unnatural, I think I sound like a coyote, but, a 200 pound coyote, that drinks whiskey and smokes cigars... Scott sounded MUCH better, to me.

That said, I get coyotes to howl back at me most of the time with it, early morning or evening. Have amazed my friends and family around the campfire on camping trips with that one many times .

But have ZERO confidence to actually use it on a stand, so have not.

- DAA
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 06, 2015, 04:37 PM:
 
Knockemdown,

I realize the longer I use Coyote Vocalizations(almost 30 years)and see Coyotes react to them how little I do know about there language. I think it is alot more complicated than we realize. Sure I know a aggressive howl or bark from a non threatening howl or bark. I know a group howl from a lone howl. But its when you start saying that's a hunting yip howl, or friendly group yip howl. Or my favorite an estrus chirp. I don't buy into the fact that you know that or better yet that you can howl in such a way that you can communicate those specific sounds to them. I guess that's what i was saying when i said " communicating" with them. Imho

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 06, 2015, 04:46 PM:
 
Dave, i hear what you're saying. Scott's the one that made me start realizing that I needed to start using or learning to use it in my hunting application. One of my biggest regrets was not being able to get out to Nevada with you, Leonard, and Scott a few years back.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 06, 2015, 05:32 PM:
 
That's ok Chad. I'm going to sell your secret method for ten bucks. Thinking about it, anyway? I need to find some way to pay the bills here. I figure, one teaser post on PMS would do it.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: coyote voice howls are one thing. Actually, I tried a couple on stand, with Scott, a couple years ago. When I asked him how it sounded, afterwards; I knew right away it wouldn't be good when he started by saying: "I'm glad you asked." He thought I would be better off not trying it. And, that was okay because it made me extremely horse.

Now, on the other hand, a wolf howl is very easy to duplicate, I was doing that like a friggin' expert, in Canada.

[ January 06, 2015, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 06, 2015, 05:36 PM:
 

quote:

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Saving a certain sound to only use at certain times in order to deter someone else from using the same one. Is that what it has come to? AR Shaw

---

That's what they said about "Lightning Jack" Amigo.

Nah, you go ahead, just don't tell anybody.

Good hunting. El Bee

PS I thought I would be getting an invite by now?
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 06, 2015, 05:52 PM:
 
Dave brought up length of time on stand, using vocal's. Chad indicates 15 minute stands are ok ?

I trust Chad, not tryin' to nail ya down there buddy.

I sure as heck don't have all the answers or anything. That's for sure. I will tell ya though in my experiences howling up coyotes (disclaimer) I have not called the numbers some of you guys have.

That all being said. I'd say most showed up just like prey distress, in under five minutes. After ten minutes, I'm yawning.

Just relaying what I know. Maybe a guy should stay longer ? It just seems to me it's time to pick up and move along ?
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 06, 2015, 05:52 PM:
 
Hey do I at least get a small royalties check.lol Who knows it might be a big splash like the estrus chirp sound.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 06, 2015, 06:01 PM:
 
I'll split it right down the middle $7.50-$2.50.
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 06, 2015, 06:05 PM:
 
Dave,
That's how I am.
After 15 minutes I'm ready to move. For me that's just the standard time I stay.
I have stayed longer especially when I know a Coyote is working his way in and taking his time. But as a general rule 15 minute stands are the norm. And sure I've called them in the first minute of a stand too.
I guess I have seem good success in that 15 minute mark so why change.
Am I missing out on a few Coyotes by not staying longer? Maybe. But it doesn't seem to be to noticeable in the numbers I kill. So why change. If I started to see a big decrease maybe I would change it up a bit.

Done deal Leonard. Now lets go make a million bucks.

Good Hunting Chad

[ January 06, 2015, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on January 06, 2015, 07:06 PM:
 
I dont have much "stand stamina" myself, like Dave, Im daydreaming by the 15 minute mark.

Yeah, you could stay longer, you could stay a week there and Im sure something will show up? I dont much care these days. Unless Im hearing or seeing something to work with, Im outta there to look at some new ground. It may be only 1/2 mile away, but it's all new.
Mark
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 06, 2015, 07:44 PM:
 
Back in the day, hunting at night in Nevada, new moon, we used to cut our stands at seven minutes. Other places, CA, AZ, NM, NV, daylights, my standard is usually twelve minutes. This can very easily be changed to fifteen minutes if I really like the set up. I can stretch it to 30, if given a reason. I'm flexible, these days.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on January 06, 2015, 07:58 PM:
 
Wow, you guys don't stay long! 25-30 minutes or more is what we stay. UTcaller, do you call year round or mainly during the winter? If its just during the winter, does your sequence work the whole winter?
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 06, 2015, 08:24 PM:
 
I do call year around. And yes my stands change alot throughout the year. The Vocalizations change quite a bit from month to month too. Length of the stand doesn't though.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 07, 2015, 08:22 AM:
 

quote:

---

Knockemdown,

I realize the longer I use Coyote Vocalizations(almost 30 years)and see Coyotes react to them how little I do know about there language. I think it is alot more complicated than we realize. Sure I know a aggressive howl or bark from a non threatening howl or bark. I know a group howl from a lone howl. But its when you start saying that's a hunting yip howl, or friendly group yip howl. Or my favorite an estrus chirp. I don't buy into the fact that you know that or better yet that you can howl in such a way that you can communicate those specific sounds to them. I guess that's what i was saying when i said " communicating" with them. Imho

Good Hunting Chad

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quote:

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I forgot my scope was still @9 power from sighting in a few weeks previous. All I could get was fur in the scope & I was on quick adrenaline.

---

I thought when all you see is fur, your on them, pull the trigger.
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 08, 2015, 04:40 PM:
 
That's Right !!
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on January 08, 2015, 06:45 PM:
 
A lot of people say they brought them in with howls but then say they used distress on the same stand. So, which brought them in? It's one thing that's always puzzled me. Randy Anderson is one in particular that comes to mind when thinking of this scenario. I know jimanaz said he will use strictly howls to bring them in... But if you're using distress and howling, how can one be given credit over the other.

LB, using a sound sparingly would work if it only worked sparingly. If it's the sound that's working and the coyotes end up dead, who are you saving the sound for?

[ January 08, 2015, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Chris S ]
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on January 08, 2015, 07:19 PM:
 
Chris,

Howl + prey = coyotes..

I did this last year several times with success.. I'm just guessing, but I think the howls brings them in near by AND the prey sucks them all the way to the sound source... I believe they get pissed when they think a strange coyote is eating their food in their territory..

[ January 08, 2015, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on January 08, 2015, 07:33 PM:
 
Howl + prey does equal coyotes. That's not in dispute. What is in dispute is ppl saying they howl them in when they're really using combination calling. That's all.
I like to think that the howling puts them at ease, and relaxes them enough to get them to come in and it's not making them aggressive and territorial; especially at those times of year when territories aren't a huge issue. A kinder, gentler howling.

[ January 08, 2015, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Chris S ]
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on January 08, 2015, 08:15 PM:
 
A single, short"lone howl"(no pun intended) is sometimes all it takes to bring them right to you. Sometimes I'll toot out a couple high pitch howls, then a couple lower pitched howls and they come on a string,( who knows, maybe one howl would a worked?). All kinds of shit works sometimes, and most times I don't even know why. Consider time of year, location, weather etc. And make a semi educated guess on what sound to throw out there and go for it.
The best howling stand I ever had was the morning I let out 1 single high pitched lone howl and 12 to 14 yapping friken coyotes ran me over. 5 or 6 adults and a slew of pups. I was so dumbfounded I forgot to start shooting. I eventually did put a couple down, but I ran my gun dry twice.

Chris is right though, I think sometimes we all speak lazily and say " I howled em in" when in reality we used a couple different sounds on stand. In reality, the howling may have peaked curiosity or anger enough to pull them out in the open, but it may be the pup/rabbit distress that pulls them on in to killable range.

Mark

[ January 08, 2015, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 08, 2015, 09:10 PM:
 
When I said that 80+% of my stands are Coyote Vocalizatons I meant just Coyote vocals no prey sounds at all. So yes I know they came in to Coyote Vocals.That's how I have mainly been calling the last five+ years. Before that for 20+ years I have used the howls/prey distress combo.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 08, 2015, 09:27 PM:
 
Many times, I've had em come in to nothing but the howls. Howling works.

Some times prey distress works by itself and sometimes I think it takes both.
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on January 09, 2015, 01:35 AM:
 
I'd like to say I wasn't calling out any one single person in this thread with my statements. It's more of an overall observation of howling, how it's applied, what's being conveyed etc. This seemed like as good a place as any thread to bring it up.
I'm a huge proponent of howling and use them on nearly every stand. If I didn't think it helped, I'd have stopped using them long ago.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 09, 2015, 07:44 AM:
 
A howl is a vocal, but not all vocals are howls...
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on January 09, 2015, 07:50 AM:
 
^^^ he's right ya know.
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on January 09, 2015, 07:53 AM:
 
Word.
 

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Posted by Eddie (Member # 4324) on January 09, 2015, 08:22 AM:
 
Can't get nothing past you boys
I went back and read all four pages of this, got one Question. If it gets them to come in who cares what's it called.
I've howled, used pup dist. prey dist. and even coon dist. to bring in coyotes, to me if it works then ride that horse till he goes plum down.
That's just a old Okie talking out loud forget it. I send it back to experts.
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on January 09, 2015, 08:32 AM:
 
You guys seem so humble about vocals..

I bet a lot of you have 10,20,30, etc years at this .. How many years does it take to become an expert??

I bet you guys (experts) have COMPLETELY figured it out in your local areas...
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on January 09, 2015, 09:30 AM:
 
Hmmm. In the ten years that I've been a memeber here, I've never seen anyone claim expert status on anything coyote. All I see are caveats to this and that, as it should be.
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on January 09, 2015, 09:43 AM:
 
Well, being humble is a great attribute.. However , someone needs to be an expert , and seems a lot u guys are..

In industry, experts don't necessarily need to know all the answers, just where to find them..

[ January 09, 2015, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
 

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Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on January 09, 2015, 09:58 AM:
 
"You guys seem so humble about vocals..

I bet a lot of you have 10,20,30, etc years at this .. How many years does it take to become an expert??"

With the internet it now only takes about 3 minutes.
 

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Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on January 09, 2015, 10:13 AM:
 
I really am humble because what I know about howling can be packaged in a thimble.

In eastern Oregon I've tried distress with no results and out of curiosity upon leaving the stand I've played the Coyote Locator sound to see if I could get a response and one day I did at every location so I started using Pup Distress exclusively and called in 6 coyotes for the remainder of the day.

But, IMO, knowing how to push a button on the caller isn't exactly the same as being an expert. I tried it and it worked with no full understanding on my part.

I generally make 15 minute stands but will sometimes stay a bit longer. Many years ago I heard some guys talking about 10 minute stands so we tried that. One morning we walked into the Joshuas, made our 10 minute stand then walked back to the truck, got in and sat down only to see 2 coyotes cross the road on a dead run to the spot where we were calling. I've also stood up to catch a coyote or two coming and turning tail in afterburner after seeing me. Lessons learned.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 09, 2015, 10:29 AM:
 
Everything I think I might know about calling coyotes, might fill a thimble. And that is this, hunt where the callable coyotes are, don't get busted getting in to your stand, pay attention to the wind, try not to fuck it up when they come in. That's the full extent of my knowledge of calling coyotes.

What I know about vocals, you could put in a gnats ass and it would bounce around like a BB in a boxcar! There isn't any way to convey such a small amount, in type, on the internet.

Years ago, I thought I knew some stuff about calling, but eventually I figured out that actually I don't.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 09, 2015, 11:57 AM:
 
What I'm thinking about here, Moe, is those times when dragging a coyote back to the truck. And, to be flashed by the light man that he has a coyote coming in, and get my ass back to the truck in time to shoot it.

One time, because of haste, we had a triple by three different shooters, at night. Now, this is pretty hard to do, on purpose. But, it involved extended searching for a cripple, long time on stand and just a general clusterfuck. We usually play sound while picking up animals and of course, never ever leave a stand, after starting the truck, without one final sweep. And, by golly, once in a while, we snag a late comer.

This is no justification for prolonging every night stand to 45 minutes. Fact is, as soon as you start calling there could be an animal within a quarter mile and he could be within shootable range in a minute or so. But, since the sound gets out there at least a mile, one has to consider how quickly a coyote can travel one mile. Could be two minutes, could be ten minutes, depending on the terrain and the circuitous route, perhaps to get downwind.

Now, we have to consider a coyote is not a potted plant, or similar to chess pieces. In fact, a coyote could be well out of range of our sound...when we first begin a stand. But, while making his "rounds" and hunting, or just going for a drink of water, ten minutes later, he enters our sound projection and begins the circuitous route mentioned above.

What this says to me is that a coyote could show eyes from immediately when you begin the call, to at least 30-40 minutes into the stand. Ever stop during a cold night to pour a cup of coffee from the thermos? As stated above, never leave a stand without taking one last sweep. Occasionally, you will snag a late arrival but this is no justification for turning every stand into a 45 minute exercise.

Pick a reasonable time limit and stick to it, or violate it as it suits you, playing a hunch. Most generally, I think 10-12 minutes is adequate, at night. Daylights, it depends on the weather and the time of day.

Good hunting. el Bee
 

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Posted by tawnoper (Member # 497) on January 09, 2015, 02:16 PM:
 
I always find it amusing when people try to give "answers" to unanswerable questions, like calling coyotes. Kind of like calling yourself an expert estimator. Obviously a guy that's been doing it awhile will know more than a newer guy when it comes to stand selection etc. but the biggest thing an experienced caller has over a newbie is a much larger stand selection in his mental rolodex. Usually he's sitting in spots that were good to him previously. He's not wandering around looking for a stand.

I agree with what LB said. I think most of those late arrivals (after 15 min) were not in ear shot until maybe 10 minutes into the stand. I've had coyotes come ripping in to a stand without caution as I'm about to leave. Hard to believe it was running like that for 15 minutes. I've never been able to stay too interested on a stand much longer after 10 minutes. After about 8 minutes I'm already thinking of the next stand. Sure, if I sat at a stand all day long there is a chance something will show...but I may be asleep. I prefer to keep moving.

At night, especially in open terrain where you can see eyes way off, if I don't see eyes in 10 minutes we head on out. In real canyon, hilly terrain where visibility is limited I'll stay longer. Sometimes a bobcat will be taking it's sweet time getting into eye shine.

We've done that a lot at night. Walk out to retrieve an animal and next thing you know the light guy is working in another while your still standing out there.

Edit to say: I know enough about vocals to make a bunch of racket on my howler. Doesn't work too often but it sounds good to me.

[ January 09, 2015, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: tawnoper ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 09, 2015, 03:08 PM:
 
Carve this into stone;

FIND A COYOTE HAVING A WORSE DAY THAN YOU ARE ..... AND KILL IT.

Now, when do I get my Expert Badge ??


 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on January 09, 2015, 03:15 PM:
 
So, we figured out how to go to MARS, but we haven't figured out what a coyote is saying? You guys must be pulling my third leg..
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 09, 2015, 03:39 PM:
 
Yeah, you wish!

Look, there is too much difference of opinion as to what howl is what and what coyote is making the howl. All you can do is interpret these sounds and understand them to the best of your ability. Then, if they seem to work, given your interpretation and your concept, who cares if what you think they are saying squares with what Chris says, (of all people)!

Feelings, whoa whoa feelings; as Charles Aznavour might say, is all that counts.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on January 09, 2015, 05:49 PM:
 
Daves confession; could just as well be my words from his mouth. I know absolutely nothing about vocals, and could count on one hand the number of times Ive tried them. Im actually a bit embarrassed about it, from a over all knowledge stand point concerning coyote hunting.
I would love to just shadow someone who is really savvy on vocals; no gun, no shooting, just ears and eyes to see how it all unfolds and what they do.
Leonard is spot on concerning my technique, if you can call it that. I know my country, always looking for good locations as I travel to my known ones. I like to think I have a good grasp on coyotes and how to hunt them, but at base, Im a simpleton....but a lucky one I guess.
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 09, 2015, 05:58 PM:
 
Ya know, I've been checking in on this thread all day while, I was @ work.

There's quite a bit of useful information here, if a guy just slows down, reads and re-reads. In other words soak it all up dudes !!

There are countless years of experience here. (Pre) Internet and (Pre) Fox-Pro..

I'm not bashing anything at all. Just sayin'

In other words, this is a hell of a lot more than pushing a button on a remote.

And, BTW..I don't know squat about women-coyotes and pretty much anything in life. I used to think so, only to realize how wrong, I am..


 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 10, 2015, 05:21 AM:
 
Here's something else to ponder...

Change species for a sec, and consider the hunting/calling of whitetail deer. There are a few different subspecies of whitetail across the country, and there are various styles of calling them...
Consider how population density, age class, and sex ratio play a role in the success of a hunter who attempts to call in a buck with rattlin' horns and/or a grunt tube...

IMHO, the reason why calling deer is more successful in certain has ALOT to do with population dynamics in that area. Low buck/doe ratio, and the abundance of mature bucks in a given area should make for more "callable" bucks, for lack of a better term.

That's why ya see hunters on managed ranches in Texas & elsewhere have consistent results when calling deer. The population dynamics allow for a more competitive atmosphere between bucks, resulting in a higher propensity for one to respond to rattling/grunting in an aggressive manner. Whereas, in other areas with less conducive population dynamics, a response might be from curiosity more than anything...

That said, shouldn't coyote densities play a factor in how and why those coyotes would respond to vocals???

[ January 10, 2015, 05:26 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on January 10, 2015, 07:16 AM:
 
Knockemdown, funny you mentioned that. I was thinking the same thing this morning. It had to do with rattling and how well it works in Texas vs other areas of the country.
Densities certainly play a role in my opinion. Fewer coyotes equals less howling, and less response. Sounds fairly common sense.

[ January 10, 2015, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: Chris S ]
 

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Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on January 10, 2015, 08:40 AM:
 
I've been very busy lately and finally got around to reading this very long thread. There is a lot of great information in here concerning something I know very little about. I do use vocals but I use pup distress on an e caller and what I call puppy whines with a peewee critter call. I seldom howl.

One thing I do different that I haven't seen anybody mention is I like to put out a couple of soft mole squeaks when first starting a stand and wait just one minute before going loud. I do this just in case there is a nearby coyote. I've heard going loud immediately will sometimes scare off a close neighbor. I won't say going loud immediately will always scare a close one because it could have been already scared hearing us walking in and setting up. Who knows for sure but it makes sense to me.

As a PVCI member I can only use coyotes called in with hand calls for it to count. When my grandson got old enough to go with me, I switched to electronics and stopped turning in kills. I did this because he had trouble sitting still. Even after he got bigger I still used electronics but I felt something was lacking: adrenaline. I miss having those close encounter surprises when hand calling.

With that said, I haven't been calling for several years. Just got too busy with life. I intend to get out next season if not sooner. All of this discussion regarding howling makes me recall two of the few times I've used howls. On a successful stand I mixed howls with a rabbit distress and both sounds were made with the standard critter call. I harvested a male on that stand as I recall. A while later I went hunting with a club member and did the same thing on a stand that wasn't successful. My partner told me to never howl and do prey distress with the same call. I laughed to myself.

I believe what works in one area won't work in another if the coyotes are all hearing the same exact sound. This is one advantage of the hand call IMHO.

Sitting down and reading posts like this really make me want to get out and go hunting.

Thanks
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 10, 2015, 08:57 AM:
 
Nope on that one, Chris. Fewer coyotes indicates they need more vocal communication, not less. As far as I can see, Arizona, on the one hand has a dense population and yet, in my experience, not that much howling goes on, except perhaps on the Papago, prime time.

The impression I get is that Nevada coyotes are a bit more vocal. This can be exasperating at times because I would be guilty of pulling up stakes and moving twenty miles just to get out of the damned howling! Whatever.

As to what Fred wrote, I dunno? I just can't relate whitetails to coyotes?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on January 10, 2015, 08:59 AM:
 
"Everything I think I might know about calling coyotes, might fill a thimble. And that is this, hunt where the callable coyotes are, don't get busted getting in to your stand, pay attention to the wind, try not to fuck it up when they come in. That's the full extent of my knowledge of calling coyotes."

Bingo! You're an expert.

I was watching Furtakers a while back and heard Al Morris say he uses a diaphragm. Wow....my wife would never let me take hers out of the house.
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on January 10, 2015, 09:05 AM:
 
Diaphragms....gross.
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 10, 2015, 10:13 AM:
 
Yep Leonard gets it.
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on January 10, 2015, 12:25 PM:
 
Wrong kind of diaphragm, Moe. Al Morris was talking about the kind that goes in the upper mouth, not the south-mouth. (good joke on your part though. It gave me a chuckle.)
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on January 10, 2015, 03:50 PM:
 
As far as densities and vocalizations go... When are the most coyotes most vocal in the most areas? Summer? What are densities like at that time compared to fall and winter?
Using logic, I believe that the densities are much higher in the summer because the pups haven't dispersed and they haven't been shot to death.
Once the coyotes disperse and some become transients and don't vocalize as much it becomes harder to tell what densities are like but I'm sure they're not as high as in the summer.

[ January 10, 2015, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Chris S ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 10, 2015, 04:36 PM:
 
I think what Leonard meant and what I was agreeing with was in regards to "Areas" with high densities of Coyotes, not when Coyotes are at there highest densities in a area that doesn't have alot of Coyotes. If that makes sense.

Good Hunting Chad

[ January 10, 2015, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 10, 2015, 05:05 PM:
 
Thanks, Chad. I read what he wrote but it made my head hurt so I decided to not reply to all that "speculation". Besides, I asked him very politely to shut the fuck up, but he decided to share those pearls of wisdom anyway.

Who knows, we still might get a letter of regret and resignation out of him yet. Did I mention that I really didn't like his opinion about Clever Gary? If I didn't, I'm mentioning it now. I don't want another friggin' word about Gary and his efforts to end "poaching". Time to take charge here; kick ass and take names. They got me rilled up, finally.

Good hunting. ElBee
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on January 10, 2015, 05:57 PM:
 
You know, on a javelina hunt down south, I had coyotes keep me awake all night with their hijinx. I might not be worldly enough to understand what you 2 guys are driving at, but within my limited experience, coyotes are either willing to howl, or not. I haven't figured out all the specifics, and would welcome any help.

I have a friend who comes here a time or two a year, and he always remarks how much more vocal AZ coyotes are than west of the river, (both pretty heavily populated?).

Educate me.
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on January 10, 2015, 07:04 PM:
 
I think I snorted some coffee on the diagraham comment.. 😱

Yeah, AZ has some coyotes..a shit load actually.. My area is great and that's one reason I fell into this sport..

However, we have areas that I call the dead "coyote" zones.. These are areas that everybody with a AR and fox pro probably hit on a weekly basis and am convinced the area is almost uncallable for old dogs..

I think in Feb, I'll try one of these areas using vocals only, NO prey.. use combinations to tell a story.. Let's see what happens..
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 10, 2015, 07:56 PM:
 
Man... I just suck at using vocals. I really do.

Went out today, firm in my resolve that I'm going to start using them and learn how. And it turned out like pretty much every other time I've ever tried using them.

Note... I don't use them very often. But, that's not to say I haven't tried them quite a bit over the years. They just never work for me, so I go back to what I know, that does work for me.

Anyway... Today was totally, 100% typical of what my experience with trying to use vocals over the years has been. I just suck at them!

The coyotes were really vocal themselves today. On three or four stands, they were howling from multiple directions before I even started calling. Heard them howling on just about every stand.

Used vocals all day, got howled back at constantly all day, didn't see a stinking coyote.

Finally, only enough daylight left for two more stands, I say to hell with it, use my same-old, same-old, tired as hell jackrabbit that I ALWAYS use. And call one in.

Next stand, last one of the day, bolstered by success with jackrabbit on the stand before, I use jackrabbit again and call in a pair.

And that, my friends, is just totally, absolutely, to the TEE typical of what my experience with using vocals has been over the years.

I'm not giving up. I'm actually pissed and embarrassed now, I need to learn this shit.

But, damn...

- DAA
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 10, 2015, 08:12 PM:
 
Well Dave at least you redeemed yourself with some prey sounds and killed a couple.

I went out yesterday and had the exact same thing as you did. Coyotes howling on almost every stand but no takers and no dead coyotes. But I just stuck with Vocals all day. I'm a stubborn bastard I guess. Maybe I should have tried some rabbit distress I might have come back with a Ben Franklin.lol I did have one Coyote at first light that seemed to be coming in but it was so damn foggy I could only see about 100 yards out. But he was howling and barking and getting closer all the time. But never could see him. Oh well maybe next time.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 10, 2015, 08:43 PM:
 
In my modest experiences howling coyotes. Meaning- Howls only no distress.

I've never really had any luck when they were already howling or howled back.

Dunno' so many pieces to this puzzle ?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 11, 2015, 01:40 PM:
 
There is some truth in the above statement. Put it this way, if you begin a stand with prey sounds they sometimes have your number and yip at you.

Lot's of reasons, downwind, they saw your approach, been called recently, bad moon phase, etc. In some cases, no amount of return howling will get them within range. They will play the game until you tire of it. Of course, in this case, you run a risk in using too much vocals.

A lot has been said in judicious use of coyote vocals, just don't over do it. If you don't have the patience for a measured response, you are better off sticking with continuous prey sounds. Oh, and silence is also good, and patience.

There are a lot of old hands that believe a coyote will always come in, they may take a couple hours, or more, to do it, but they will show up and leave tracks in the snow exactly where you were. Even after watching you pack up and leave, they will come in shortly.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 12, 2015, 05:58 AM:
 
Leonard, I wasn't wanting to compare deer to coyotes. Obviously they're completely different animals...
I was attempting to illustrate how whitetail bucks in certain areas seem to be more willing to respond in an aggressive manner to certain sounds, as compared to other areas. And that willingness seems to be directly related to the population dynamics of that area. Buck/doe ratio, age class, herd density, etc...

That said, wouldn't a coyote's willingness to respond aggressively to certain "vocals" be similarly affected?
Don't certain vocals key in on an aggressive response? Would those types of sounds be as effective on a dispersing YOY, as compared to a resident adult?

Don't certain "vocals" key in on a protective/maternal response? What if there are no bred pairs in that area? Or...what if the time of year is simply wrong? Are those types of sounds any more/less effective at one time of year over another???

Not sayin' I've got any answers, just lotsa questions that might provoke some thought...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 12, 2015, 10:22 AM:
 
Fred, a lot of what you are asking is unknowable. Sometimes, there is no logic. For instance: puppy whines. Everybody knows they are illogical certain times of the year, but they work. Barks are good, barks are bad, etc.

Just repeating; your questions really are so wide ranging that I wouldn't know where to start?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on January 12, 2015, 10:37 AM:
 
I have never called in a coyote in this situation; you start calling using prey distress and than a group starts howling.

In that scenario, I believe i have not called in a coyote.

Have u guys?
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 12, 2015, 11:12 AM:
 
Thanks Leonard, I realize that. Just kinda wanting to keep the wheels turning in guys' heads. Least that's what goes round in mine, anyway...

F&D, heck yeah. Not always, but often enough to expect success, over admit failure...

If I have coyotes "howl" at me here in NY, they done fucked up & gave away their position. Depending, I might re-position as close as possible, or just wait it out for one to show up. Have kilt several coyotes here after sitting on stand over an hour. And, the only reason I stayed that long, is because I knew there was a captive audience within earshot. Got nuthing better ta do, so I wait em out and they eventually swagger on it to investigate...

That tactic might make ZERO sense for someone calling out west with hundreds of thousands of acres of public land to stomp around on. But back here, with limited access, private land and fewer coyotes, if I hear one howl, imma do whatever I can to get one-a-them fuckers dead...

Just last month in Nebraska, I was calling & had a pair howl at us, <3min in. They were close enough to expect one to show, so we stayed put and I kept calling.
First one came loping in @ 6 minutes, unbeknownst to me. The upwind rifleman couldn't get a shot off @ 30yds. Coyote #1 left, but I hadn't even seen it, so continued calling as if nothing had showed yet...
Broke the stand @ 12 minutes, and I honestly couldn't friggin' believe that a coyote didn't come! Walked out to grab the caller, and look up in time to see Coyote #2, as it pops up over a sandhill @ 400yds. Mexican standoff, but no shots fired. Reconnoiter with guys on stand, and that was when I found out that Coyote #1 had already come & gone...

Just a quick recent example, but yeah. If coyotes howl during a stand, I feel pretty good about being able to suck one in. And if they howl further off, move closer and make it easier for them to wanna check you out...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 12, 2015, 11:29 AM:
 
I'm with FUR. If you start a stand and at some point they are howling at you, they are suspicious and not worth screwing with. Of course, that's not in some woodlot in NY. I can go a half mile down the road and be successful, and sometimes, it's the suspicious ones that come in. But, waiting on vocal coyotes is time better spent somewhere else, in my opinion. Always depends on where and how far away, though.

NONE OF THIS IS GRAVEN IN STONE, as the original KHD used to say.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 12, 2015, 11:37 AM:
 
Well, like I said before, so many pieces to the puzzle. Normally for me when coyotes start howling the games over, might as well pack up and go.

It's just never really paid off for me.

Yes, I've tried playing the game and exchanging howls barks, ect. Only to see them park their azz way out there and scold me, out of what I'm comfortable with in regards to my shooting range, about 250 yards.

I can think of one time off the top of my head, where I sat down, got ready and sure enough a coyote let's out a lone howl. I gave him one back and within seconds there he was.

Anyway, I've really never considered Fred's scenario of advancing my position towards them. In the right terrain that might work ?
 

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Posted by booger (Member # 3602) on January 12, 2015, 11:41 AM:
 
Here is my experience from just yesterday…we started out at a place where I thought we might call a cat, so I dispensed with coyote vocals. I turned on the caller to ‘Grown Cottontail’ as per the suggestion from Jimnaz, and had one respond within 1 minute.

Partner shoots and misses coyote number one…’Grown Cottontail ‘ continues to play and #’s 2 and 3 show up 5 minutes later. We shoot one of the pair.

1 hour later, we are in a large pasture bordering the river—not concerned about the chance of a bobcat, so I start with vocals. I start with about 15 seconds of pup howls and 15 seconds of an interrogation howl. I wait for a couple of minutes and switch to ‘Crying Jack’ sound.

Coyote #4 of the day shows up within 10 minutes of starting the caller and about 5 minutes or so after the prey sound started. Never cut our wind, but partner with the rifle misses a downhill shot at 60 yards.

I am not sure what sound actually got it coming our way…
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 12, 2015, 12:32 PM:
 

quote:

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I have never called in a coyote in this situation; you start calling using prey distress and than a group starts howling.

In that scenario, I believe i have not called in a coyote.

Have u guys?

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