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Author
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Topic: Stopping Power of the .223 on Coyotes
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted August 28, 2016 02:15 AM
NJ has fairly recently given its hunters the privilege of hunting coyote with centerfire rifle.
So this year I am getting outfitted with the Remington R-15 (I know Leonard a machine gun). We can use 5 round mags, but we can only have 3 rounds loaded in the gun.
Question...how is the knock down power with a .223 on coyotes? Also keeping in mind the northeastern coyotes run a little heavier.
I have some of this ammo:
https://www.ammunitiondepot.com/956-federal-223-rem-62-grain-bsp.html
I also have this ammo that was given to me which I thought might be better here in NJ due to the lower chance of ricochet rounds (there are always houses within at least a half mile if not closer):
http://www.extremeshockammo.com/Rifleammo.html
Any thoughts / suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
49
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted August 28, 2016 04:38 AM
Nick I don't have any problems with called coyote out to 200 yards or so. I'm shooting 55 gr NBT's at 3100 fps in my 16" machine guns.
Hit em right and they die, hit em wrong with the 223 or anything else and they run off.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 28, 2016 04:50 AM
Whatever?
But, out here, the 223 is marginal? And, who the hell dreams up those rules that everybody must abide by? Why only three rounds? That's assinine.
But, a 62 grain bullet is a good choice, regardless, you know, if you do your part....right Tom?
There should be a rule against those machineguns! I'm not saying you can't have one, you know, in case Black Lives Matter breaks down your front door, but they seem completely inappropriate in the sporting fields.
What makes a grown man want to play soldier with the scary military weapon? I hardly ever use the word. "weapon" in connection with any hunting application, but it is what it is.
Oh, what the heck, go ahead! If Tom says it's okay, it's okay by me. But don't get bent when I say; I told ya so!"
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted August 28, 2016 06:19 AM
Okay so one vote for yea and one vote for nay.
Leonard I also have a model 700 in .243 I could use. I failed to mention NJ law states caliber must be .25 or less, with maximum bullet weight 80 grains.
But the main reason I am considering a machine gun type rifle is the closer calling we have in north NJ, and the faster follow up shot capability. Yes...I have a Colt LE6920 that rides in the trunk of my police vehicle...and these are most definitely considered weapons.
Just curious Leonard, did you carry an M-16 or M-14 during your combat time?
So no bueno on the .223 for coyotes? Were these farther type western shots when considering Tom's 200 yard maximum?
Thanks..
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted August 28, 2016 06:37 AM
Do you reload 49, because $56 and $39 dollars a box for the ammo in the links is more than what I would want to spend.
Maybe price isn't an issue, but I can't see how the anemic energy of the 110 grain sub-sonic ammo is supposed to be a great coyote killer?
Anyway, a 55 V-Max or 55 NBT would be my pick.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted August 28, 2016 06:54 AM
I think the machine gun is the way to go, because as you mentioned about followup shots, you will definitely have them with the .223.....lol
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted August 28, 2016 07:31 AM
I'm guessing you don't reload yet Nick, or you wouldn't have posted the links ?
I'd go with the 62gr soft point. I don't think you can go wrong with sp's when & if you reload then you can tinker if so desired.
Well it's funny you knew you were gonna take some crap for the AR.. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
(edit) So what was the deal in NJ rim fire only ?
[ August 28, 2016, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 28, 2016 08:27 AM
Really dates me! M1 Garrand
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted August 28, 2016 08:28 AM
Here is a 50 rd pack for about $24. 60 VMAX. There are others that would work well for coyotes also. Some might suggest that 223 shooters would need all 50 for a coyote or two.
https://www.freedommunitions.com/ammunition/rifle/223-remington/223-60-gr-v-max-new.ht ml
LB, I really fail to understand your disdane for the 223 and especially AR15's. For the sport, daytime coyote hunter, not including ADC or competition use, I really don't see a problem with called coyotes under 200 yards using this cartridge.
I know coyotes can be tough for little 25-35lb critters, but they really are not that hard to kill, IMO. If you do your part, etc...
edited to add more links. I like the 55gr Sierra SBT's, but I reload them myself.
http://ammunitionstore.com/products/223-5-56x45-ammo-55gr-sierra-gameking-federal-tactical-rifle-urban-tru-t223e-20-round-box.html
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/223-556-soft-point
[ August 28, 2016, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
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Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 28, 2016 08:35 AM
As they say, a well placed 22rf behind the ear will settle any coyote's hash.
But, here we have situations where there is bushes and you have openings and the animal is running and you never have time for that well aimed shot. In other words, it's a "center of mass" proposition. A 75 grain HP in a 243 will stop a coyote leaving skid marks in the sand. A 223? They keep running and you will never find him.
That's why I take a dim view of the killing ability of a 223, especially at AR velocities. Why the fuck use it when there are so many better choices?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted August 28, 2016 08:39 AM
Some of the smaller cals especially lighter bullets may be less prone to ricochet, in a more populated area, would be one reason.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted August 28, 2016 08:58 AM
quote:
Do you reload 49, because $56 and $39 dollars a box for the ammo in the links is more than what I would want to spend.
Maybe price isn't an issue, but I can't see how the anemic energy of the 110 grain sub-sonic ammo is supposed to be a great coyote killer?
Thanks Lonny, I didn't realize that was a sub sonic load when I had posted that. I was given some of this ammo at the Harrisburg hunting and outdoor show a while back. I think they were really trying to push the ammo with LE. Not sure if the ammo I have is subsonic or not, but I think I will leave it in my ammo locker where it belongs.
I have a supply of the TRU softpoint. The old ammo we rotated out of our 6920's was passed on to me. I shot a good amount of it and it works fine in my AR's. So I have enough to hunt with without paying those prices.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted August 28, 2016 09:03 AM
quote:
I think the machine gun is the way to go, because as you mentioned about followup shots, you will definitely have them with the .223.....lol
Good Hunting Chad
You don't inspire confidence Chad!
quote:
I'm guessing you don't reload yet Nick, or you wouldn't have posted the links ?
I'd go with the 62gr soft point. I don't think you can go wrong with sp's when & if you reload then you can tinker if so desired.
Well it's funny you knew you were gonna take some crap for the AR.. [Smile]
(edit) So what was the deal in NJ rim fire only ?
No reloading for me right now, Dave.
NJ had allowed muzzle loader for deer and bear and rimfire for Wood chucks and raccoons. It added centerfire for woodchuck around ten years ago, and now centerfire for coyote and fox about a year ago.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted August 28, 2016 09:08 AM
Dan thanks for the links, and all the advice from everyone.
You have given me a lot to think about.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted August 28, 2016 09:54 AM
If you can't kill coyotes with a .223, within reasonable ranges and modest accuracy skills, you might as well take up fucking golf.
Ive been full circle, Ive had most all of the various flavors of varmint rifle calibers over the years. Started with an old 8mm Mauser...it's all I had at 15. When I began working a real job at 18, I had a Ruger #3 carbine in .223, and killed a lot of shit with that rifle, deer, antelope, javelina and a ton of coyotes.
Been thru .22-250s, .22-250 Ackley, .220 swift, .243, .250 savage,6mm PPC, 7mm TCU, .17 Rem, .19 Calhoun, .19 Badger, several .223s.
Now all I use is an 18" heavy barreled .17 mach4, short, handy, easy to pack around, and kills coyotes grave yard dead, even took my mule deer buck with it last fall, and it dropped like a rock.
A .223 will serve you just fine, although like mentioned, I would reload at todays ammo prices. 55 grain Nosler ballistic tips, win 748 powder and you'll have a tack driver that will be plenty good for coyotes.
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 28, 2016 10:20 AM
Yeah, those pee wee AZ coyotes!
I haven't actually used a 223 on coyotes in somewhere between 15 and 20 years ago, but at the time, I didn't kill a single one with a single shot. This was in a target rich environment and even though it was only over about three days of hunting, I couldn't anchor a fucking coyote to save my life. Granted, this scope was mounted on the AR handle and that created a few problems since the damned thing was either zeroed at 50 yards or 100 yards and the impact point was considerably different depending. Nowadays, with flat tops, that's not a concern but when they are moving through the brush, or you have to anticipate where they will appear in a clearing, Hell, I must have just imagined all this, like a bad dream?
That's my opinion, get more gun, or less gun. I don't have a problem with any seventeen at moderate ranges, or something like a 204, but why keep pushing an anemic little underperforming cartridge like the 223, is beyond me? Save it for all of our experts out there. For the rest of us, it's a piece of shit.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ August 28, 2016, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted August 28, 2016 10:29 AM
What Leonard said......
Good Hunting Chad
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 28, 2016 10:50 AM
Victor, the Troll!
We keep forgetting this guy is a card carrying member of the "use less gun Club". I don't get it? Never will.
It's okay; whatever he wants to use, but now he's advocating and for the young, impressionable folks back east, (perhaps lacking his extensive experience), much heartache and anguish is on the horizon. Do you want that on your conscience, Mr Carlson?
A 223 makes a good jack handle when you unscrew it, after losing a few dozen cripples.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: Geeze, it just registered! Did he say he killed a Buck Mule Deer with a 17 MIV? Criminal!
[ August 28, 2016, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted August 28, 2016 10:57 AM
My first rifle was a 30-30 and I killed deer and coyote with it as a kid some 35 years ago (not to be confused with 35 years of coyote killing experience)
I traded it for a 222 Salvage and traded that for a mini 14 in 223. I killed a ton of critters then needed a quieter "weapon" for reasons I won't go into so I added a 22 magnum and learned to do my part.
Fast forward to the past few years and I added a 243AI and a 22-250AI for my heavy guns due to all the internet experts saying distance and wind and maybe bigger tougher coyotes. I sold the 243AI after realizing it won't guarantee no runners. Neither will the 22-250, I had one with each because like Leonard mentioned, sometimes you have brush and running coyote that just won't stand still.
Bad shots suck with any caliber and if Leonard is basing his 223 hate off a carry handle mounted scope, I can understand. I do remember you had a blushing moment in front of AR Shaw with your 223AI so now all 223 suck?
Whatever, how's your golf game? LOL
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted August 28, 2016 11:36 AM
I'll see your anecdotal evidence Leonard, and raise you mine. I did mention that last October, I shot a 150 pound mule deer buck, squarely behind the shoulder broadside, with a 25 grain Hornady HP out of my .17 mach4 from around 60 yards, and killed the sonofabitch stone dead.
If that's not enough gun for a damned 30 pound coyote, then Im severely confused, for a couple hundred have fallen prey to it in the last couple years. Have I had to use follow up shots on some, you bet, but no more than anyone else here that makes a bad hit with whatever flavor they are using?
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted August 28, 2016 01:26 PM
quote:
If you can't kill coyotes with a .223, within reasonable ranges and modest accuracy skills, you might as well take up fucking golf.
Vic, how did you learn to be so tactful, ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted August 28, 2016 01:31 PM
I had to take a break from my home project. I added a 12x24 addition to my garage. And that took longer than it should have.
Went down to the gun club and shot my 17-204 with those big old 30gr bullets. That rifle is a shooting SOB. Golf is not a bad thing, even though it is a four letter word. Come to think about it, I think I have a charity golf tournament with the Elk's club next week.
[ August 28, 2016, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 28, 2016 03:40 PM
I think I have had a couple of real head scratchers in more than ten years.
That time I hit a coyote with my little 6mm at less than 50 yards, right in front of Victor. The coyote ran off I I was so befuddled, that I flung a bad shot over his head when he was 200 yards away and then Vic nailed him with, (I forget) a 17 or 19 caliber pipsqueak. He never said anything, but it sure bothered me anyway. The bullet I also don't remember but it was probably 80-87 grain right in the rigcage.
Anyway, yes that deal in Texas, witnessed by Shaw. I had been using a 223Ackley for about three years, at the time, and this coyote was a routine 100-125 yard chip shot. Standing still, slightly quartering went down with finality. Except, a minute later he jumped up with Shaw yelling; shoot him again! I couldn't believe that one either. Both of us flung 2 r three more shots at him but he was running pretty good on three legs.
That was over three years ago and I never used that rifle again. bullet was the normally reliable 55 VMax.
So, what do you make of that shit? The 6mm was a total freak event. And, the 223Ackley had killed 40-50 coyotes without a problem, but Shaw didn't hold back, said he didn't think much of my coyote rifle. I was probably waiting for something to happen because truthfully, my velocity was only about 50fps over a stock 223, ad we know what I think of 223 performance.
Victor would want to take it Moose or Grizzly hunting, but I haven't used it on anything in more than three years. Did I mention that I love my 22-243Middlested? The Hammer of Thor!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted August 28, 2016 06:23 PM
I like my 24" barreled 22-250 AI, but I'm thinking of chopping the barrel down to 18 or 20" and putting a can on it.
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Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted August 28, 2016 06:26 PM
Sometimes there is no reason, it just happens.
Granted a 75 gr 6mm bullet running 3600 fps kills hard enough that the first coyote I shot with my 243AI convinced my cousin to build a fast 6mmAI and he's killed enough critters with it that Noah would have had a hard time filling the Ark. I mean I shot that coyote dead square in the chest as he was running to me and my cousin swears he was knocked backwards about a foot or two.
But then after quite a few light switch kills, I had one take a step as the shot broke and hit him in the ball joint. I unzipped him from front to back and he ran just like he was hit with a 223 ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
I tried a 204 Ruger when they first came out and lost enough coyotes that I and my govt trapper friend both knew it was a prairie dog gun and nothing more. A few years later I tried it again in the Montana but with 40 gr Vmax's and have yet to lose a coyote or cat, never even had a runner that I remember. Can't say that for the 35 gr Berger's though...
My Montana 223AI spits those 55 gr NBT's out at almost 3600 fps but I've yet to use it on a coyote. Velocity wise I could never get much more than that with a 22-250. Can't see that it won't work just as well.
But give me a machine gun with a 16" barrel and slow things down to 3100 and I'll still make do.
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