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Author Topic: The lowdown; nose to nose!
Leonard
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Member # 2

Icon 6 posted August 15, 2019 05:00 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Here I am raising a dog for the first time in more than 20 years. I have seen several instances where Tillie smelled my presence rather than heard me, and I got to thinking about an old question.

The question is in several parts. First of all, I wonder where, by reputation, a Blue Tick stands in relation to some other hounds, or are they all the same except for outstanding individuals? Is a Bloodhound, does a Bloodhound actually have a superior nose? If so, why do they use other breeds to search the rubble when there is an earthquake?

But my main question is; how does Tillie's nose compare to the average coyote? Has anybody counted those olfactory glands and come up with 25,000 versus 33,000 or something like that? Do coyotes blow dogs away, in the scenting department?

So, favor us with your considered opinion, or half baked opinion, in the case of Lance? (just kidding, buddy)

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26745 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted August 15, 2019 06:51 AM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Ok ……………… Opinions being like elbos, everybody's entitled to a couple, I would give the nod to the coyote. If a dog shows good nose while chasing stuff it gets breeding rights. If a coyote shows good nose while chasing stuff, it eats and the species survives.

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When urinating outdoors, remember to face East, toward Mecca whenever possible.

Posts: 5411 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Eddie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4324

Icon 1 posted August 15, 2019 11:53 AM      Profile for Eddie   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Ran Blueticks a lot in the 70s and early 80s, in fact when my frist son came in this world in 1980 I had sixteen coon hounds. Most of them were Blueticks with alittle walker cross. As a breed the Blueticks on average had a colder nose than the other breeds. Now does it have a better nose than a coyote, I have no proof one way or the other. There might be some proof out there, but I don't no about it. I will say this, that when you go to talking about hounds around dog men and how good they can smell everybody has there own breed that they will back till the day they die. Been there and seen it, it's about like asking witch caliber is best for hunting coyotes and you all no how that goes.

LB blueticks are a good breed, but that's my opinion and everybody's got one.

Posts: 272 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
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Member # 2

Icon 1 posted August 15, 2019 02:46 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Okay, just as I thought, Blueticks are the best, followed by Nevada cpyotes.

Anybody else?

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26745 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted August 17, 2019 02:51 PM      Profile for Cdog911   Author's Homepage   Email Cdog911         Edit/Delete Post 
IMO, lol, it depends upon the bloodline and what the ancestors were bred for. Blueticks and Walker treeing hounds were bred from English redticks. Between the blue dog and the Walker, I would have to give the nod to the bluetick simply because most of today's Walker coonhounds have comethrough breeding for competitive events. A Nite Hunt lasts exactly 2 hours long. Points are scored based upon which dogs strikes first, and which dog trees first. As each dog strikes, its handler calls his dogs struck in. Second guy and third guy as well. Most casts (groups of dogs) are three or four dogs. The strikes are marked, but the points are not given unless and until the coon is treed and the coon is actually seen by the handlers and judge. Same goes for tree points. If the track pisses out and nothing is treed, anyone struck in gets negative points. If the coon is seen in the tree, all positive points. The judge carries a stop watch that begins as soon as the hounds are released and is stopped for time outs or when the dogs are all called on the tree. Actual field time may be 3-4 hours, but like in a lot of sports, the clock starts and stops to actual hunting time. My point?

A competitive hunter does not want a dog with a cold nose that will strike a track that is several hours old so that their dog runs the same track for the entirety of the hunt but runs out of time before it can go to tree. Ideally, you want a dog with a warm nose that only detects relatively new tracks so that you can strike and tree as many coons as possible in the allotted time. Therefore, since most comp guys use Walkers, the Walkers tend to be bred for warmer noses. English dogs have cold,m cold noses as a rule. You don't see many of them in competition but they excel in hunting applications in poor conditions like cats in the desert or coyotes on snow or ice. Blueticks don't get much attention because long-legged Walker's will blow right past them and the stumpy little legs so the blue dog gets all kinds of strike points but loses tree points.

I don't look at the difference between coyotes and dogs as being a matter of the ability of the nose as much as what the animal does with the information. I think a coyote can decipher a shitload more info from a stink than a dog does simply because there's more on the line for them. Hound runs every track he hits, old or new. Runs blindly to do the best they can. Coyote has to learn through experience how long it's been since the target of the smell was there and decide whether to pursue or move on. Strategically, it's to the coyote's disadvantage to chase track after track that ends up being a dry hole.

At the same time, most hounds are trained on one, maybe a couple different things, and that's it. Coyotes interpret and separate God only knows how many scents are there every single day and choose which one to exploit.

As far as skill goes, IMO, the coyote blows domestic dogs away. If for no other reason than I consider the average coyote to be "smarter" than the average dog, border collies and rat terriers excluded. (burn)

My opinion based upon my experience.

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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.

Posts: 5270 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted August 17, 2019 02:58 PM      Profile for Cdog911   Author's Homepage   Email Cdog911         Edit/Delete Post 
Addendum - Walkers, English, Blueticks, Plotts all run head up and at fast pace. Redbones, black and tans and bloodhounds are "track straddlers" who have to be over a damned hot track to run head up.

I watched my english male work a coon track out across slick ice. Walkers can't do that. Saw a redbone bitch run through oak leaves on a track with the leaves flying up and back over her head like a runaway snow plow.

Each breed has its strengths and weaknesses. You run the one that works best in the environment where you'll be hunting.

I watched a coyote outsmart a pair of experienced July hounds one time by running down a creek in the bottom, then coming out onto a muddy, sticky wheatfield and double back behind them before going back into the creek and making its escape running downwind of the dogs. Hounds just came up looking stoo-pud.

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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.

Posts: 5270 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted August 18, 2019 02:44 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting analysis. I'm sure "he who shall not be named" will have an opinion or two about your opinion. Tillie takes offense because she's not squatty, in fact quite leggy.

About your description of the contests; man! if you ask me, they sure fucked up the whole concept. I fail to see that they are measuring anything of value with that point system? Maybe there's more to it than I can grasp?

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: oh and another thing. Possibly, I failed to make my question clear? I understand where you are coming from, basing the coyote's detecting and what he does with the information and is it due to innate intelligence based on experience, etc.

I was wondering about pure detecting ability, sort of a parts per million thing. You know how they say a white shark can detect a drop of blood in a gazillion gallons of salt water? I meant the ability to detect the faintest scent, not how the animal used it which involves intelligence. OK?

[ August 18, 2019, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26745 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
earthwalker
Cultural Editor & middleweight arm wrestling champion/Intermountain Region
Member # 4177

Icon 1 posted August 18, 2019 04:11 AM      Profile for earthwalker           Edit/Delete Post 
LB, I think a coyotes nose is as good as any dog. It's how they survive and they know their territory.

Not going to get into the hound dog versa hound dog and so forth.

We had hounds one red tick out of Wily Carrol stock (if I remember right) a walker hound a red bone and so forth. Each was good at it's own thing as a group they were good (for us).

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You are never lost if you don't care where you're at.

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Posts: 571 | From: Intermountain region | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
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Member # 2

Icon 1 posted August 18, 2019 08:33 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
OK the votes are in and tabulated and it is as I suspected, the Blue Tick wins, hands down! What a nose! if only she realizes what it is good for?

So far all she is interested in, is her stuffed farting Groundhog! Can't blame her for that, it's my favorite, too!

This morning in her exuberance, while thrashing around with toys, upside down, she mistakenly chomped down on my bare foot! Yelp! Geesus, are those teeth needle sharp!

But, I need to do something with the training so she can stay inside more.

Like I said, if I need to buy that portable fence or screen, I guess thats what I have to do? The video said build it in an oval pattern, not round, so she understands that the object is to get as far away from her bedding area as possible. In other words, a square or circle is a waste of time. So, I need to put out enough puppy pads so she can't fail. eventually, she (it says here) will understand that, (as we used to say in the brown boot Army) DON'T SHIT IN YOUR OWN MESS KIT!

That seems self explanatory, and the video guaranteed to work in three (3) days! I can't wait! But today, I have heap big financial stuff going on that has to do with recent lowering of prime interest rate.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: and if I didn't mention before, Tillie has a pretty solid pedigree with (as I understand it) at least a couple champions in her recent bloodline. But it might be for looks rather than performance?

[ August 18, 2019, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26745 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted August 18, 2019 10:40 AM      Profile for Cdog911   Author's Homepage   Email Cdog911         Edit/Delete Post 
Our ratties housebroke mainly because my wife smokes. Every time she went to the deck to smoke, the dogs got to go outside. With appropriate harsh verbage for the very rare accident in the house, they picked up on things quickly. I don't provide food to pups on demand until they're house broke. Feed them at set times, then immediately turn them out into the area where you expect them to poop and pee. Input generally results in output, so that has always worked for us. They get on a regular schedule pretty quick and with the proper amount of "Whose a good girl?!?" in your best daddy voice, it's a snap.

Taz was a bit stubborn, though. To this day, at 8, all I have to do is say, "Who pooped in my house?" and she runs for her kennel as self-punishment. LOL

Harley, on the other hand, was potty trained before we got him at 5 weeks. The breeders did really well at putting them outdoors around a pan of ground up puppy food and calf formula at feeding time so that they ate with their feet on grass. Knew what was expected of them. Input and output and he pooped one time inside, the day we got him, and never since except for when we weren't there to turn him out.

Just remember when you step in a surprise in the dark of night, they'll eventually get it right. Most of them will.

And yes, the period in which they have half-grown jaws and needly baby teeth can hurt.

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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.

Posts: 5270 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted August 19, 2019 12:43 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Here I am, just let the baby out to wander around and hopefully do her duty. Then, back in the kennel and I'm here beside her until she settles down. This is the second time tonight, better be the last! I don't know what woke me up, maybe nothing, but she has not had a big howling whimpering, crying event, that I'm aware of? She did rouse Pinky who also needed a little face time, which he got. I've been up 32 minutes thus far. Girlfriend keeps reminding me: "she's just a puppy, this is what puppies do."

Yeah. Yeah, I kinda knew, and that's why I never got another dog for so many years. My son thought I needed a companion a little more portable than Pinky who doesn't do well in strange situations. The last time I took him with me to my daughter's place in northern California, I felt like leaving him at a rest area. He squawked the whole way until I put him in the back and threw a blanket over him, which he chewed holes in. Dogs ride easier, in the car. They like to go Bye Bye.

Good hunting. El Bzzzzz

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26745 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted August 21, 2019 07:55 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Tillie has discovered a fun thing. Digging in my damned planters! She watched me clean it up last night and thought it was great fun, tried to help. Five minutes later, she was like a damned prairie dog! I need to seriously consider some kind of obedience school, I can't even get her to come if she suspects I'm upset about something? She hides around the corner until it blows over. However, she sure is cute!

Good hunting. El Bee

PS and she is getting big already! Eats like a fuking horse! I swear, I just filled that damned bowl, but it's already empty! I'm using a bigger cup than a couple days ago, no discernible difference, it still disappears quickly! And, she don't walk away until it's gone.

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26745 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted August 21, 2019 11:24 AM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
I'm shocked and appalled that an enlightened state like Calif. would allow 'obedience' training for your animal companion that has the same rights that you do. [Razz]

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When urinating outdoors, remember to face East, toward Mecca whenever possible.

Posts: 5411 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted August 22, 2019 02:31 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not sure it exists, I may need to travel to a more primitive state.

This morning, I'm up with the baby at 2:20. Still up, an hour later.

I have an appointment with a Veterinarian later this afternoon. Need to have her checked out, maybe install that chip and just a general evaluation. She needs a rabies shot before I can get her a driver's license. Maybe a recommendation on what to feed and how much? And, when?

So much to learn! But she does love me! We are bonding....and Pinky is taking this all in and says that he's feeling a little neglected. Can you blame him?

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26745 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
Member # 3785

Icon 1 posted August 22, 2019 06:18 AM      Profile for DiYi           Edit/Delete Post 
Did assorted,different worded searches online and even 'science' is all over the board on this.
Military has a lot of research on this although their 'needs' are different.More 'air scenting' than tracking.

Posts: 623 | From: SoDak | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted August 22, 2019 08:41 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Well, share some of what you learned! Don't make us beg!

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 26745 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
Member # 3785

Icon 1 posted August 22, 2019 01:26 PM      Profile for DiYi           Edit/Delete Post 
LB headed back to cabin in Canada.Just home to mow etc.No computer there and only limited reception.Home for good in few weeks.
Try something like 'military research on dogs' in a google search and will get into it.
Good stuff and even PETA vs military stuff but all interesting.Been used since,even before,Atilla the Hun.

Posts: 623 | From: SoDak | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged


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