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Author Topic: Fair warning!
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 2 posted January 16, 2023 07:24 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Regardless of what you hear or what anybody claims; believe me people. Do not try to kill a coyote with anything chambered in 223Remington! Sometimes they get cute and dress the cartridge up in a military designation 5.56mm X what the hell is it, the capacity, anyway? Whatever, I'll look it up. But, it's not enough! Trust me!

If you don't trust me, I had a call this afternoon from "He who shall not be mentioned" Tim Anderson and if you don't believe me, he's like some sort of expert, hailing from the North Woods where Paul Bunyon is from and he said many places it's actually illegal to use a 223 on coyotes/fines and imprisonment! Why take a chance when adequate coyote cartridges are available.

And, whatever you do, do not use the assault weapon commonly known as an AR15 on coyotes! For pity sake!

Again, don't take my word for it. Look it up. The Internet is full of hard luck stories where some Nimrod attempted to kill a coyote with an AR15 and the coyote wound up getting up and biting the hunter in the groin!

Don't do it! It's not worth it!

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: It's 5.56X45 a pipsqueak cartridge that apparently kills by tumbling or something?

[ January 16, 2023, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 30554 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted January 16, 2023 08:49 PM      Profile for Az-Hunter           Edit/Delete Post 
The. 223 was my primary arm for many years up till my 40s, and began to use a variety of. 17 and .19 caliber rifles. Digging into my memory, I recall taking 6 whitetail bucks and 3 mule deer bucks,several javelinas and one antelope. More coyotes and Bobcats than I could reliably recall, but it was a bunch.
Now days, the. 223 is just more gun than I want or need, my little .17 mach 4 has been the cats ass for my hunting needs, I've even taken 2 mule deer bucks with it.
I'm always amazed when I hear an opinion criticizing the. 223 as being substandard for use on a 25 pound animal. A 50 to 55 grain bullet, at 3300-3500 fps is just not enough, but same bullet at 3800 from a 22-250 is somehow magical???? Sure makes scratch my head.

Posts: 1553 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted January 17, 2023 01:13 AM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
You answered the 22-250 question yourself. (3800 fps.) What's vel of some of your 17 cal.s you shot? Bet it was over 3800 fps. (Not counting mach-4)
3800 fps or faster that's magic number. When my dad had his dairy farm, he would go out into the barn once or twice a year and shoot and kill a full-grown Holstien cow that was sick or broke a leg, and used a 22 l.r., sure it killed the cow but automatically does not make it a big game cartridge, unless you can get close enough to your game and hold end of barrel few inches from its skull. LOL Oh yeah I've heard the story of some guy shooting off his back porch and shooting deer in the ear every time and drop right there! What if that deer perhaps jumps the string a little before bullet gets there, then what? Go to u-tube and check out all the night vid.s keep note of what cal. is being used and the results. 223 wins that as worse round to use on coyotes at night and day time less you killing your pets.

Posts: 4586 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted January 17, 2023 01:19 AM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
P.S. I've seen enough coyotes at home shot by others using a 223 and most of them pretty dam good marksman and many times a running shot has to be taken just like on a stand when you have multiple coyotes coming in, they sure as hell not going to stand still long enough for you to get a clean shot.
anyone invited to my part of the woods, bring your trusty 223 and I have the dogs put a coyote in your lap and make a liar out of you at same time. LOL [Big Grin]

Posts: 4586 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted January 17, 2023 01:39 AM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting .............
I've had good results with .223 out of several different set-ups including a (gasp [Eek!] ) Mini-14.
Possibly because I don't consider myself a great long range shot and anything past 100 yards is a long shot. I tend to hunt heavy cover and sometimes even seeing more than a 100 yards can be a problem.

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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.

Posts: 7081 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted January 17, 2023 08:31 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, Vic! I get it. Less is more!

So, next time I'm in a friendly game, I intend to raise with 2 pair, instead of doing the smart thing and folding. In fact, it's beginning to make sense to call a raise, holding a pair of Jacks.

Mule deer bucks drilled with a seventeen, .17 what? You use something like a Mk4 or Javelina, not even a 17Remington, I think?

Well, I know what you are doing, same thing I was doing by starting this conversation. Why stop at 17? You can get a nice 14 caliber rifle for most situations, short of Grizzly bears. On second thought, why not Grizzly bears? All you got to do is aim true! That's the reason these fellas use too much gun; they are poor shots on game, as a rule. Most of those fools expect a moose, hit in the leg with a 30'06 to drop dead.

There's no logical answer to this, "less is more" thinking; so we are plowing furrowed ground here.

Think of it this way. Ever tried to convince a Liberal of ANYTHING factual? Waste of time, ain't it?

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 30554 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted January 17, 2023 09:54 AM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
Koko I see no problem with that you a responsible hunter and know the limits, problem is there are 9,942 hunters that don't think like that. Kind of like matches, in the hands of a responsible person they come in pretty handy, but not so much when kids play with them. As for Vic I've seen him shoot those dangerous eggs and kill em most times but not everyone can shoot as good as Vic so another exception. Still have 200,000 hunters who can't shoot to save their ass, but hey it was fun trying.
Saw another U-tube vid. on a night thermal hunt, the guy had five coyotes come in. They get to where the guy thinks they close enough and then starts a mag. dump on them. Hits the first coyote he shot at and goes to the second, another hit and then off to the third, another hit and then onto the fourth, another hit. This guy is on a roll and swings to his left for coyote number five which has already put a lot of ground between it and the shooter. Shooter empties rest of the mag. on this coyote and missed from what it seemed. Guy goes out to drag all his dead coyotes back to the truck and takes a hero shot, problem is there was only two coyotes in the picture cause that's all he could find. LOL

Posts: 4586 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted January 17, 2023 10:00 AM      Profile for Az-Hunter           Edit/Delete Post 
Opinions are based on experience,or should be,otherwise voicing it clutters the conversation with noise rather than thought.
Opinions are developed from either no experience,little experience,some experience or a great deal of experience.
I arrived at my opinion by what I believe to be a fair amount of experience with the. 223 and smaller calibers used on predators. I also associate with a couple guys who have far more experience and far greater numbers than I do using the. 223.
I could give two fucks what a guy uses to hunt coyotes, I just would like reciprocity on the issue. I do not subscribe to "less is more", I do have the opinion though,based on my experience, that less is enough.
I've seen my share of "got always" with 243s,22-250s,6mms,7mm-08 etc, but certainly don't lump those observations into an opinion that anything over. 223 is not suitable for coyotes. That would sound ignorant, no?
Really not intending to have an argument,I trust that's understood. As I mentioned,use what you like,it's the pastime we enjoy,savor it, most of us don't have much time left this side of the dirt.
My point, is to honestly assess the degree of your experience before you weigh in with an opinion.

Posts: 1553 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted January 17, 2023 10:04 AM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
Now the gritty part. I use a black rifle when I run my dogs chambered in 224 Valkrie shooting 75 gr. or 90 gr. bullets. the Valkrie compared to the 223 we just splitting hairs here its just a hair better than a 223 in performance, nothing to brag about. How well does it work on coyotes? It doesn't unless a coyote is standing still at 100 yards and I can get the perfect shot with a good solid rest. And that's still not a guarantee the coyote going to die from one solid hit. Shot quite a few coyotes in front of the dogs so far and many required a double tap or the dogs would have to finish it. But thats only reason I still use it, if a bad hit I have dogs coming up behind or one in the box I can dump on it, most don't have that luxury so why do it.
Posts: 4586 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted January 17, 2023 10:15 AM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
If smaller just as good why do so many carry 9mm, 38 cal. etc for a self-defense pistol where 22 L.R. be just as good? Less muzzle jump, easier to stay on target etc.
Posts: 4586 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted January 17, 2023 12:58 PM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
https://www.facebook.com/500126993/videos/486556910274354/

It maybe painful for some but watch till the end and pay attention to bottom right corner of screen.

[ January 17, 2023, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posts: 4586 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted January 17, 2023 01:58 PM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
"Content isn't available"

[Confused] [Confused] [Confused]

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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.

Posts: 7081 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted January 17, 2023 03:22 PM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
my bad. sure, you seen similar before.
Posts: 4586 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted January 18, 2023 09:51 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Well now. My original post was intended to mock 300 yard DRT and with an AR15, specifically.

My experience with 223 is limited but I was surprised, out of my trusty AR that I couldn't seem to BANG FLOP those critters. Why is that? I don't know but I had 15 years exclusively killing them routinely with a 220 Swift and this was very different.

I will concede one thing, maybe I mentioned it before? That I had several partial boxes of MATCH bullets that my Swift didn't like, and so that's what I had on hand, and that's what I used. What I'm saying is that perhaps a spitzer might have killed better, but I was using target bullets at substantially less velocity than typical out of my Swift. Maybe they didn't expand or whatever, but nothing went down "Bang Flop". They all needed 2 more, while they were flopping around. I put it away before the day was past noon. That has formed my opinion since the early 70's and I'm not kidding, the last time that rifle has been out of the safe. I mean you know, I never took it hunting again although I did bang some steel at the range one time that I almost forgot about.

What I will say, to conclude, is that a fucking 22-250Ackley makes the best all around predator rifle cartridge I have ever used, and I've used quite a few.

Let me try another angle. Thinking about less is more. What are you going to grab for self defense, a 38Special with round nose lead bullets or some places where you have to use FMJ, or a 357Mag, with hollow points? And, if you say; yeah, that 38 drops their dick in the dirt, every time and the 357 kicks too hard!

I have a hard time understanding the reason(s) for 223, at least for coyotes and why I want to kill them. A 22-250Ackley just performs magnificently, and the brass lasts so much longer than my Swift brass. I will mention, that I have never owned a 22-250 Remington, but my partner had a Oberndorf Mauser with double set triggers chambered in 22 Varminter which was a wildcat before Remington came out with the factory cartridge in In think 1969? That was an awesome rig with a 6X24 Balvor, huge scope but we used that rifle just for long shots at night and it performed beyond, well I can't say that because I never owned a factory chambered rifle, but that Mauser performed right along with the Ackley's I have owned.

And that's it. No point in 222Magnum, 225Winchester, or any centerfire 22, just get a 22-250 and enjoy life. If you hunt for fur, well maybe you might want a 17, or a 19 or a 204? But for all around predator hunting, a 22-250 is hard to beat and in my opinion, has not been beat.

If you would rather drive a Tercel than a Porsche, for the same price, something's wrong, somewhere?

I do not get it and I never will; but whatever floats your boat.

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 30554 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
NVWalt
Knows what it's all about
Member # 375

Icon 1 posted January 19, 2023 01:26 AM      Profile for NVWalt           Edit/Delete Post 
Just my worthless 2 cents but I agree with Vic on those calibers. I love my little 17 Rem but I run it hotter than a popcorn fart, but don't really recommend that a person with limited experience at shooting coyotes Use one. You need to PLACE that shot with a sub caliber. Otherwise you just ding ol Wiley and he gets away sometimes. I've shot a handful with a 223 I had and it worked well but my all around favorite has been my stock 22-250, but once again I run it hotter that a popcorn fart. Something I always liked doing and most guns I have owned didn't mind it at all short of short brass life. I also hardly ever shoot a coyote at over 100 yards as the majority of them have been 50 yds or less but I just don't care to use a shotgun. Love my little 17 Rem. easy to shoot and no recoil. Also, and for me, it is watching everything happen through the scope where with any of the 22 cf's I blink and miss the impact and the expression on their faces. Even my little 221 Fireball out of my TC makes me blink...on occasions lol.

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The goal of the NAZI government, Goebbels said , is that there should be only one opinion, one party and one faith in Germany.... hmmm, sound pretty familiar?

Posts: 526 | From: Tellico Plains, TN | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted January 19, 2023 08:24 AM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
You right Walt 17 rem. or a 17 wildcat is the cats ass on a coyote but don't try to tell Leonard that. [Razz]

Many of my 17 cal. barrels are worn out and not sure if it pays to re-barrel any of them back to 17 centerfires. Maybe 223 is the answer.

221 F.B. I still have two of them really like em but not enough steam for 300 yard bang flops.

[ January 19, 2023, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posts: 4586 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted January 19, 2023 10:33 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Just let me say here that I was never bit by the 17 bug. What, exactly is the advantage? Vic doesn't put up fur so what's his rationale for choosing the novelty of it? Whatever, don't answer, it's a free country.

One little factoid I remember from some years ago is that the number one Model 700 returned to the factory because of blowing up for any reason is the 17 Remington. Doesn't matter the size of the bore and like NV Walt, he likes to run them hot and pressure is pressure.

I may not agree with your choice, but I will defend to the death, your right to use a subcaliber on coyotes. And as been mentioned, aim carefully!

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 30554 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
NVWalt
Knows what it's all about
Member # 375

Icon 1 posted January 19, 2023 03:07 PM      Profile for NVWalt           Edit/Delete Post 
OK Leonard you just did it.
"Whatever, don't answer, it's a free country."
I haven't put up fur for at least a million years and when I shoot coyotes they were good fertilizer for the sage brush and the soul.
But that 17 is so much fun just to shoot and it zaps little furry things at a good distance.
I just love that thing but just because I treat the handloads like they were top fuel dragsters doesn't mean I want to blow it out the ports LOL.
It's like shooting a 22lr but funner.

--------------------
The goal of the NAZI government, Goebbels said , is that there should be only one opinion, one party and one faith in Germany.... hmmm, sound pretty familiar?

Posts: 526 | From: Tellico Plains, TN | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted January 19, 2023 04:15 PM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
You right walt they fun to shoot with a bullet at Lazor like traj.and hits the target while you still looking at it. and in most cases you don't get a pile of blood in the truck or all over yourself like you would with a big boy. And little as a 30 gr. bullet maybe it hits them hard and something you'd need to see.

[ January 19, 2023, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posts: 4586 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted January 19, 2023 04:49 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Walt, I think I get it. Just novelty, or I can't really express it, or driving your 67 Corvette convertible. Something like that? I get it because, for me, I get a lot of satisfaction from Ackley's. And the brass lasts forever. I get superior performance, above and beyond my 220 Swift, (which I haven't given away yet) and I get it without blown primers and split necks. Or, the bane of 220 Swift shooters, trimming to length, or at least checking "over all length" with every reloading cycle.

This isn't news but I can be very contrary. For instance, I hate Glocks! Never owned one, but they are so "plain vanilla" that I am very unimpressed.

I hate Creedmore chambered rifles. I never owned one, I just refuse to jump on that bandwagon.

I hate Military style Assault weapons, AR15's with "High Capacity" magazines.

I hate FaceBook. Not because I ever joined, but mainly because I strongly dislike that little pipsqueak than copied the concept from My Space and has become a multi Billionaire by blind luck. Between him and that other Pencil Necked Geek, Bill Gates, we are supposed to pay attention to his ideas because, why?

I hate EV's! Electric vehicles are a fad being forced on us by Liberal Conservationists that don't know shit. Buyers will be sorry one of these days!

I hate the Olympics, I hate the NFL, and I really hate World Cup Soccer! People blindly follow this bullshit like it actually means something! FANS ARE BEING PLAYED FOR SUCKERS!

I hate $1400 Suppressors! Why do people pay more money for a 6-8 inch machined tube than for their whole rifle? It's a con! Be an elitist

Okay, that's all I can think of right now, but this was with very little advanced notice. Given time, I can come up with lots more!

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 30554 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted January 20, 2023 04:11 AM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
You forgot about Mini-14s & 30-30 lever actions ????

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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.

Posts: 7081 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted January 20, 2023 07:20 AM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Or how about those big Bowie Knives that rookie hunters carry ??
Or the endless parade of quads & side x sides patrolling the roads during deer season ???

[Confused] [Confused] [Confused]

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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.

Posts: 7081 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted January 20, 2023 12:12 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, Bowie knives? I never did get it? I find a drop point caper to be all I need. I am aware of this, I own too many knives. I own too many calls, for that matter. Having said that, and noticing Jay Nistetter checking in, I remember his display at the ShadeTree gettogether in 1999, I think? His collection makes mine look insignificant. I have his book by the way.

Never wanted a Marine Corps KaBar. They are second rate, if you ask me?

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 30554 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted January 20, 2023 02:17 PM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
I carry just a Musk rat skinning knife or least have one in truck and also had it along at few camp outs. Remember Local trying to skin a cat with dull butcher knife! [Eek!] It wasn't my cat but I stepped in to offer my service hate to see someone cut finger off or ruin a good hide.
Posts: 4586 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted January 20, 2023 02:21 PM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
I think Jay took over making the Tally-ho, was it? One of the very few store-bought calls I liked to have along. [Wink]
Posts: 4586 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged


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