The New Huntmastersbbs!


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The New Huntmastersbbs!   » Firearms forum   » switching from small pistion to small pistol magnum primers

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: switching from small pistion to small pistol magnum primers
Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506

Icon 1 posted April 26, 2022 08:46 AM      Profile for Aznative           Edit/Delete Post 
During previous ammo/reloading droughts I’ve purchase some small magnum pistol primers that I would now like to use to reload some 9mm and 38 special . Using Hodgdon’s reloading data center for 115 gn 9mm the starting load is 4.3 gns of Win 231 and 4.8 gns for max loads. I have a chronograph and I will make sure my loads don’t go faster than my loads using standard pistol primers. I will first shoot 10 rounds of my standard 9mm loads to obtain a good average velocity before shooting any of the loads with magnum primers. My question is how much of a powder charge should I start with. I’m thinking of just going with Hodgdon’s starting load of 4.3 gns, but I am considering starting at 4.1 gns of Win 231 which is two grains lower than the listed starting load.

I will appreciate any input some of you might have.

--------------------
Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.

United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012

Posts: 1920 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted April 26, 2022 06:16 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I haven't done that substitution either but I think you are more than safe. I'd probably just back off half a grain and watch primers. Might check your decimal point? But my gut feeling is that you should be able to switch out the mag primer interchangeably, and use the published small pistol primer data. I have done the reverse many times especially with large pistol magnum primer data but use standard large pistol.

They do a lot of stressing, not to substitute components but very little advice on if you have no other choice.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: the thing is, we normally work up a load any way, so you should see any problem before it develops.

[ April 26, 2022, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31258 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506

Icon 1 posted April 27, 2022 07:12 AM      Profile for Aznative           Edit/Delete Post 
I’m glad that I have a chronograph for this switch. I remember an article that told how to calculate chamber pressures with a chronograph. It had you measuring case capacity, bullet seating depth, bullet jump, percentage of case capacity filled with powder, and probably several other factors I’ve forgotten. In simpler terms, velocity is a function of average pressure. Since I already have loads that have been determined safe, it should be reasonable to assume the pressures between these two loads would not have excessive pressure if they achieve the same average velocity. After I’ve determined the powder charge for using magnum primers. I will load 50 rounds with magnum primers and shoot all 50 through the chronograph to determine average deviation for this load. I will next shoot the same number of rounds using the standard primers, and determine its average deviation. As long as the Standard deviation with magnum primers is close or less than the standard loads, I have great confidence in this new load. If the standard deviation is higher, I will reduce the magnum primer load further.

Yes, I may be over thinking this switch.

By the way, writing about standard deviation reminds me of something I learned at ASU. The homosexuals didn’t like Sigmund Freud because he called homosexuality a deviant behavior. Freud was a man of science, and homosexuality is a deviant behavior statistically. His use of the word deviant comes from the term "Standard Diviation".

I would be willing to bet if a professor was to say that today, they would be looking for a job in a new field. They would be banned from the majority of Universities.

Thank you for your support

--------------------
Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.

United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012

Posts: 1920 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted April 27, 2022 09:10 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Well, this is friendly advice, but yes a bit "overthinking". I don't think you need 50+50 shots through the screens to determine if your load is safe.

When I am working up a new load in a new rifle, I just increase the charge with every shot, maybe a few tenths of a grain at a time and I go right to observed completely flat primers and don't bother with mic'ing the case just ahead of the base where you will see the results of serious pressure.

So, this gives me an absolute maximum charge and I immediately back off at least half a grain for accuracy testing. For me, I don't try to evaluate safe loads based on velocity. That stuff is nice to know for figuring downrange performance, but it's just curiosity, if I'm breaking 3,000 or 4,000fps.

No, I just try to read the tea leaves as far as pressure indicators and flattened primers is the easiest to evaluate, for me. I do not want cratered primers and I do not want flattened primers, after all signs are deemed safe, I will tweek the load for accuracy on paper, as that's what I'm focusing on.

It's a lot harder, working up a handgun load because accuracy is all over the place without a machine rest, and I don't care that much anyway. If it's on the paper and hopefully, in the 10 ring, I'm good. In other words, accuracy is a rifle world and pistol is a different set of rules.

Of course, some are better than others, me, I'm just kind of indifferent about handgun accuracy. Even the best of them would have trouble hitting an orange at 25 yards and a scoped rifle can do it at at least 200 yards.

Anyway, oh and that's another thing. Examining primers on striker fired pistols is a bit of a mystery. They don't so much make a dent, as a slash.

I'm assuming you can make some sort of evaluation by the strength of the recoil. You know, you can feel a hot load versus a mild load. In rifle, sometimes a stout load is the most accurate.

In thinking about it, it's possible that your loads with the magnum primers could be slower that the same powder charge and a standard primer because the higher intensity primer might start faster ignition which is contrary to the effects of a slow burning powder. Much pistol powder is basically shotgun powder anyway and it's relatively fast burning.

I am interested in your results.

Good hunting. El Bee

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31258 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted May 15, 2022 09:04 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I just ordered some magnum small pistol primers. Most handgun powders are also used in shotguns and are fast burning. So, using a primer with a bit more intensity, in my opinion, really shouldn’t have a major effect on pressure, and/or velocity.

I also have a chronograph, it’s the well known and hard to get Ohler 35P and I’ve never used it for anything but working up rifle loads, but it will work just fine.

I’ll look at published data and compare weight in grains and stated velocity. If it deviates from, or I should say, if my loads deviate in velocity, I bet it will be marginally slower rather than higherBUT you never know? Besides, I’ll mostly be loading 357, so a lot of published loads use mag primers anyway.
I’m not too worried….except shooting a screen; which I’ve never done, but I’ve never shot pistol through the screens and shit can happen?

Good hunting. El Bee 🐝

[ May 18, 2022, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31258 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted May 18, 2022 11:34 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
This crap, the past month is maybe getting out of hand, I've got several hundred factory rounds of 45, and just stashing them so my motivation is/was to stockpile some handloads since I noticed that I had accumulated 650 empties....

Suddenly, unleashed the Kracker! It's taken me damned near two months, what with mail order and hazmat shit but I have loaded 600 45ACP and 100 9mm and 200 40S&W, 200 38Special and a hundred 357Mag, 100 44Mag, & 100 44 Special.

I had to stop because I'm out of small pistol primers. I have 250 40 S&W cases primed, and another 100 357 Nickel ready for priming and have the Hornady XTP 158 gr. ready to go.

I'm very set on pistol powder now. There's been numerous fast powders developed since the last time I geared up, or got a bug up my ass, if you prefer.

I'm just about ready to make a purchase of those sexy black cherry and mint green hi tech cast bullets. That Bayou site is now selling in quantities of 100 rather than 500 pieces, which is way out of my league. Anyway, the price is right and it presents a circular problem, have to fill the void. Too many cases, must buy bullets. Too many bullets laying around....same thing, have to buy brass. 44 Magnum brass has been non existent for months.

And then, keeping this stuff in food containers is kinda Mickey so I made a $75 purchase of ammo boxes from Midway. I'm in a rut! I'll get sick of it soon and won't mess with pistol for a while. When I do get the urge, I need to buy two sets of dies that I have been pondering for quite a while. It's a matter of principle, I usually handload everything I own. But, when you consider the need and the fact that I just do not shoot 25 auto and 32 auto very much, I need to first buy dies and brass. So, that's a project for after I take a pistol loading break.

The fact is, I enjoy handloading. It's like a craft. and I admire the results. Those gleaming little I.C.B.M's are pretty cool, all finished in the loading blocks. I have no doubt that my handloads are superior to factory stuff. The only thing I don't do and should do is anneal cases and who knows; that may be something that will keep me busy.

I've got more things, like getting with the stainless polishing media. They are no doubt superior to vibratory with corncob and walnut. I do not use and do not like walnut as a rule, but some of my cases were pretty bad, laying around for years. And, you really have to watch the primer pockets! It's easy to get a walnut fragment lodged in the primer pocket and with some sases, it's a bitch to get out! So, don't use walnut unless your brass is pretty scummy. Then inspect the primer hole before you prime.

Everybody that hunts predators should handload, in my humble opinion. It forces you to be knowledgable about your loads. Everything, all the data, velocity and drop and when you have a couple hundred cases dedicated to a rifle and stockpile the powder and bullets enough to last the life of the barrel, that's a so much better way to go rather than buying factory stuff and dealing with availability and your next purchase, different lot #, you are starting all over again from scratch.

Forget about saving money. That's kind of a joke, if you ask me. All that gear you need ain't cheap, so unless you are a high volume shooter, attend matches and shoot lots of live targets, etc. OK, it's volume and if you can justify that volume to plunge with a progressive, then be my guest. I simply do not have the time, nor the inclination. I try to stay in my own lane and handgun disciplines aren't my forte', I guess you would call it?

So, that's about it, until things loosen up with the ammo problems.

Good hunting. El Bee

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31258 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 25, 2022 08:14 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I, in fact, used to have data on primer intensity. Even between brands of the same category, you know, small pistol, small pistol magnum but I'd have to go through a filing cabinet for half a day and it's not that important.

I have a Bench Rest friend that was/is that anal and had the stuff charted. It indicated which brand was the hottest, but I do not know how that data was obtained? The end result was to list the manufacturers top to bottom, hottest to least intense.

All I know, because the only thing I cared about was/is my predator hunting rifles, of which I have several.

The categories are:

1) All Around
2) daylight guns
3) Night rifles
4) long range night rifles
5) set up for night vision

Not to kid the kid, a few of the above are only a single example. Like the night vision rifle, it's just a Model 700 in 308 with 165gr. bullets with the theory of shooting through brush that either cannot be seen or that's the only shot you are going to get so cross your fingers and pull the trigger. How many of those would you need?

Same with the long range setup. I shake my head at these 1000 yard nimrods. First of all, at night, my rule is not to attempt a shot past 400 yards, (because that's what I have dialed in) but the main consideration is first: the animal must be well marked with an easy to reference landmark. You do not want to be wandering around at night searching for an animal that you only have a vague idea of where he is, range estimation and exact azimuth. I also put a laser on the landmark so that one guy can walk out and if he is there, great; but if he isn't, you don't waste two hours wandering around. I learned that lesson a long time ago but of course, if it involves tracking a cripple, that's the breaks.

I also should have listed a "Loaner" category, of which there is two, a general purpose and a daylight stand gun.

Anyway, as to primer rules. First, if at all possible, I prefer Federal. Next, Remington and a big bonus is that I can easily identify them by color, all the rest are chrome plater or silver color. Next in preference is CCI and last is Winchester. Except for my 300 Winchester Magnum and it has always got the Winchester large rifle because as far as I know, Winchester loads all their belted magnums with their large rifle primer so it must be, (and is) the hottest large rifle primer equivalent to other brand magnum primers, in intensity.

The other consideration, when working up a load for a specific rifle is if THAT load happens to be a spherical powder and if so and maybe shooting conditions might be sub zero....then I will use a hot primer for positive ignition. And, that's really the only purpose I have ever had to build a load around a specific primer. For me, it's simple, I go with Federal, large or small rifle and hardly have a reason to deviate, but I occasionally have a reason and do deviate. Bottom line, it's not very important and I don't even know where my list is if I had a reason. It's good to be consistent with primers rather than all over the map. (especially when a good portion of my record keeping is writing on the wall in pencil)

Good hunting. El Bee

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31258 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted July 25, 2022 12:27 PM      Profile for Az-Hunter           Edit/Delete Post 
I just got back into competitive shooting after a long hiatus. My revolver is set up and tuned to run on Federal spp, they are the softest currently made and allow for the lightest hammer strike. They have been extremely hard to come by last 2 years and I was down to a few hundred. Just snagged 5K off Natchez, usually they last a few hours, then sold out. Currently they still have them in stock for a short week now,must be coming back possibly?
I also prefer Federal all around, but for any firearm other than my revolver,I'm ok with Winchester.

Posts: 1589 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 25, 2022 05:27 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, I guess I agree, but it's a Ford/Chevy situation because basically, primers is primers unless you are a purest, maybe in some type of handgun or race gun or what I fool around with occasionally, Bench Rest.

Maybe if you favor Federals, it's because they have a reputation for consistency? I always heard that the big secret about "MATCH" primers is they slow the lines, and run at half the normal speed, whatever that may be? So, even though they are a premium, I have always used Federal Match primers, particularly in hot cartridges, Ackley's or any overbore, which isn't encoded but everybody generally knows what they mean. Like my Middlested, for instance, it's pretty hot but it's 100fps slower than either of my 22-250AI. All with Fed 210 Match.

whatever, maybe the market is actually opening up a little. I went to Natchez and bought a few myself. Thanks!

Good hunting. El Bee

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31258 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 6 posted July 28, 2022 12:47 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
So, PS Victor:

You said you are just getting back into the competitive stuff and I assume, in Florida, right?

What do you think of the people you are shooting beside, aside? Is it a highly sophisticated crowd, or can you count on winning? As opposed to Arizona, is the competition formidable or are they more casual?

I always heard that you were the one to beat, so are you kicking ass and taking names, (an Army technical term) or what?

Good hunting. El Bee

[ July 28, 2022, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31258 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted July 29, 2022 11:30 AM      Profile for Az-Hunter           Edit/Delete Post 
Just shoot local club matches now,usually have 30 to 40 competitors. The days of shooting national big money matches are far behind me now,body and skills have degraded to where I'd be wasting my dime on entry fees,travel and time.
Shooters pretty much the same no matter the location,10% are seriously skilled,young and competitive,40% trying to get there and the rest just show up to have fun.
I'm the old guy with the six shot revolver that keeps the top five guys honest. I'm playing in a game dominated by high capacity 9mm semiautomatic pistols,so I'm chasing my tail from the get go.
More often than not, I place in the top 5 shooters and keep the young hot hands looking over their shoulder, and I'm happy I can still do that.
Just having fun with it, I love shooting and like being around other shooters. The upside is it helps keep what skills I have left somewhat sharp, and keeps the old man from creeping in.

Posts: 1589 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted July 29, 2022 12:31 PM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
A wise man once said;
"You don't quit playing because you get old.
You get old because you quit playing".

[Cool]

--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.

Posts: 7476 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 29, 2022 02:00 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Oh yeah, must not forget ko ko. This member is a serious competitor with the strings and pointy sticks. I've deduced that he is a contender in matches as far away as The People's Republik.

Same thing, if he don't win, he scares 'em, maybe in the senior division. But I pretty sure he's known and ranked, at least?

Even I used to be kinda good at a few things, before I got old. I was an athlete in high school and collegiate surfing, swimming and Golden Glove, of all things? BTW, modestly mention that I have a closet full of predator hunting trophies and buckles and hardware.... which might be worth a 10% Sr. discount at Chick fil a's!

Old deaf guys rule!

Good hunting. El Bee Golden Glove

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31258 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted July 30, 2022 10:25 AM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Question for Vic;
Do you think that shooting without the mental pressure of 'need to win' gives you an advantage ??

Not sure that I worded that well but you'll probably understand.

Thanx !!

--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.

Posts: 7476 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted July 30, 2022 11:08 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I get it, don't see why he wouldn't?

All I know is that we are damned near on the fucking BRINK! If we can't wrest control of congress from the corrupt Democrats this coming November, we may never do it!

I just read an article in National Review Online a few minutes ago, by Andy McCarthy. In essence, the fucking FBI is as corrupt and dirty and controlled by the goddamned Democrats! This is a national disgrace and SOMEBODY has to do something about it! It cannot go on! You can't just say, "disinformation" and all the FBI and Democrat corruption is ignored. This is scandalous and it needs to be stopped!

Here, read it, as soon as I go find a link....

Here it is and you fellas had better read it and open your eyes in the ways we are getting the shaft. Since Obama and Fast and Furious, the Justice Department and the FBI are corrupt! Somehow, some way, the bastards need to go to prison!

https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/07/democrats-and-the-fbi-collude-again-on-a-russia-smear-against-republicans/

[ July 30, 2022, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31258 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged


All times are Pacific  
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Huntmasters



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.0