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Author Topic: Thoughts on the 6.5 Creedmor
earthwalker
Cultural Editor & middleweight arm wrestling champion/Intermountain Region
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Icon 1 posted September 19, 2020 08:15 AM      Profile for earthwalker           Edit/Delete Post 
Is it a fad?
Is it a man-bun type of gun?

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Where the hell is all the game animals?

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted September 20, 2020 12:06 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I've never owned one, but I have never believed in magic coming from a brass case.

As far as I am concerned, that cartridge is hyped way to much. You almost can't get any other chambering, that's all any mfg offers, these days!

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted September 25, 2020 11:14 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Normally, I could talk cartridges all day. It's just that things are so fucked up, it's hard to concentrate on these hardware issues, and in the end, it don't really matter what you use. (I mean, within reason)

But, maybe the Creedmoor, is useful, and maybe it's the best design since sliced bread, whichever you prefer, 6mm or 6.5 persuasion.

The thing that crawls up my ass is that every new offering we hear about, every writeup in a gun rag is ALWAYS CREEDMOOR! How can that be? Is that the only chambering reamer available? Are the gun makers responding to huge demand? Or, are they hawking something for unknown motives? I don't know about all that demand? Seems to me that shooters are a very contrary lot and just as likely to choose something different, over something that everybody on the block has, or wants to have.

There are a few cartridges that are just awesome. I've always loved 270Winchester, always sniffed at 308Winchester. Loved 22-250Ackley and sniffed at 223Remington. If you are going to shoot at game, why use a boring cartridge? That's why I have never owned a 30'06Springfield. Yeah, no flies on it, but it just doesn't excite me.

I've probably put more rounds through a 220Swift than any other centerfire, maybe including 45ACP? No, that can't be, but that's not a fair comparison, we are talking about rifle chamberings.

The Creedmoor cartridges are just very puzzling to me? Who is pushing them on the manufacturers? Did somebody invent a better mousetrap, or what?

I accept the notion that there is magic in a name, like I said, 220Swift is case closed. The fact that it has a couple design issues does not detract from the "cachet". The fact that I will always favor a 22-250Ackley Improved over a Swift when it's my money involved is beside the point. But, 220Swift has magic and 22-250AI is kinda tedious because it doesn't roll off the tongue with the authority it deserves. Of course, neither did 22Varminter. (You whippersnappers will have to look it up)

Maybe that's it? Creedmoor is an ugly word.

Good hunting.El Bee

[ September 25, 2020, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted September 26, 2020 08:44 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Awkward name applies to my current choice of "coyote rifle" specifically for day stands. It's a 22-243Middlested and the original owner died unexpectedly and I acquired a pretty good deal that came with two Shilen barrels, the second in 22-250Ackley and I have yet to screw that one on. I guess because I'm perfectly happy with the performance of the Middlested, which the only difference between it and a straight 22-243 is the 30 degree shoulder. Also, it's not very important that this Middlested is 100fps slower than my night rig in 22-250AI. And burns almost 4 grains more of a different powder. But, for what it is, it is way more than adequate. It's no lightweight, either. I don't know what it weighs, but it sports what a lot of people would call a "bull barrel" but looks skinny next to my heavy varmint barrels.

Everybody has a dream rifle. Some people build several in a lifetime and they never look the same. Attitudes change and so does the perfect rifle. Looking back, I wouldn't call any of them mistakes, they have just evolved.

One thing that has changed is my willingness to tackle a build. All the steps involved and then working up a load and it seems like a year later, you might be ready to actually use it. Which is not to say that I can't be tempted on a off the shelf factory rifle which I did, a nice handling Remington with a fluted barrel and even then I had to go and get a Sako extractor and rechamber it in an "Improved" configuration. So, I guess I can't leave well enough alone? Because I haven't fired that one in 5 years. But I did kill a real nice 200 pound hog with it, something that wasn't ever anticipated; of a daylight coyote rifle, in 223Ackley.

All these dream rifles. I guess I'm probably cured, at this point because I have way more than I need. I think it's true, that you get burned out on building the perfect rifle.

I have a book by a well known writer of the 60's and 70's about The Accurate Rifle. I mention it because, in looking over the rifles of this estate sale, there was one chambered in a 240 "something" that I recognized from the book and the author's writings in one of the gun mags of the day. This was a for sure obscure caliber but in the 243 and 6mmRemington category. It was probably state of the art, then? And, not examining the bore, but it takes a lot of shooting to wear out a bore in this type of gun, but for a handloader, it most likely has plenty of life remaining and would make a very decent mule deer rifle. That's what it was, a nostalgia piece, somebody's dream rifle out in Boron, CA. I didn't catch the gentleman's name but I bet he would have been interesting to know. And then his widow sells all his treasures at bargain prices that he would have not agreed! That's the way it goes.

My daughter will no doubt do the best she can, when the time comes but she can't know what some of this stuff is worth. Yeah, but to who? Sometimes I think I would have been better off to invest in gold? I sure lost my ass in real estate at a bad time, and I thought I couldn't lose, just goes to show you; the best laid plans of mice and men....

Just saying, investing in firearms. I don't know? Sorry to ramble.

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

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Kokopelli
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Icon 1 posted September 26, 2020 09:23 AM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
If firearms are anything like bows, I suspect that popularity is based equally on performance & marketing. There have been some fine bows that fell by the wayside only because they lacked 'panache'. Same with rifles ?? Wasn't there once a .280 that was supposed to be the hot new thing ??

Mayhap a TACTICAL 6.51 CREEDMORE MAGNUM EXPRESS ???

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted September 26, 2020 09:47 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, it's the 280Ackley Improved and a lot of gun makers have offered it as a legitimate factory offering. It offers performance virtually equal to the 7mm Remington Magnum, burning like 55 grains of powder instead of 75. If I didn't already have a perfectly adequate mountain rifle in 300WinMag, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one. One of my old partners had one that he used on coyotes at night, which is overkill, I know. But he couldn't shoot it like his benchrest rifles, unfortunately.

But anyway, nobody knows why ballistics are as they are and a 7mm bullet flies shedding less velocity and therefore less, (meaning more) foot pounds at extended range, and this is where a mountain rifle for stuff like Bighorn is such an advantage.

Right now, I guess the 27Nosler is about the same, maybe not as long, but fatter. Anyway, if you have a 280AI, don't trade it in on the latest dream rifle because it's a legitimate performer.

In fact, all Ackley's are worthwhile! The only problem in some actions is in feeding. My Rugers have always had a problem feeding Ackley's from a staggered magazine. The first would feed okay but not the second. The third would feed okay, but not the fourth. It takes a little work on the feed rails but it can be solved. It's all because of the 40 degree shoulder and this is why we have configurations like 300 H&H Magnum with a what the hell is it? 17-18 degree shoulder? Anyway, this type of bottleneck cartridge feeds reliably, at the expense of powder capacity.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: that's something I had intended to mention. Some people are far better off with a 308 rather than a 300. Recoil affects people differently. My partner Pat, was an exceptional shot with his 22-250 Ackley but he owned a Mark V 300 Weatherby for big game hunting in the mountains. He used to ask me to sight it in for him, not that I'm so good at it but the gun really beat him to death so I didn't mind. I guess you just can't predict who can handle recoil and who cannot? In fact, I don't think I'm all that good, just better than him. With a 460Weatherby, I don't even know if I would own something like that? I have a couple 378Weatherby Magnum cartridges in my collection and it's just an awesome cartridge and it's hard to contemplate the actual killing knockdown potential in something like that. Anyway, it's the same case as a 460, just necked up.

That's the lazy way with cartridge development, neck it up or neck it down to accept different diameter bullets. LB

[ September 26, 2020, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2020 07:09 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I got an email yesterday from Springfield Armory, I guess because I bought that 1911 A1 about 8 months ago? Anyway, announcing a new rifle. I forget what it is called, a bolt action available in 4 chamberings.

6PRC, 6mmCreedmoor, 6.5Creedmoor and 308W. That's it!

Boy, the shooting public sure wants Creedmoor!

BUT, WHY?

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

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Semp
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2020 01:32 PM      Profile for Semp           Edit/Delete Post 
The new Springfield rifle is called the 2020 Waypoint. Why that name and what that means is anybody's guess.

The 6.5 Creedmoor has better ballistics than the .308 win at ranges over 800 meters and has lighter recoil. At least that's what I've read. I have no experience with the caliber. Where I hunt the longest shot possible might be 300 yards across a picked corn field. In the woods where I mainly hunt, 50 to 75 yards is about all you can see.

I suppose if one was in to long range target shooting the Creedmoor might make sense. But for hunting, I don't see a need for it.

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2020 05:06 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, thank you! I was lazy and could have posted the link. So, here it is, and I notice I made a mistake, it's 6.5PRC, not 6mmPRC. But still, i'm a little irritated that they have such a limited selection.

https://www.springfield-armory.com/model-2020-series-rifles/model-2020-waypoint-rifles/?utm_campaign=Model%202020&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=96282691&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--TWHElIVaMWy5aTcISd Jvn0llkmB8jYSdGXUTIiYS7fLnyvY7DaQmvttDatnBQx5A389g-NLgwz-7JUydxd1MxBRr4ig&utm_content=96282691&utm_source=hs_email

I also saw a writeup on a new Weatherby rifle and they made up for Springfield Armory's blunder by having quite a bunch of chamberings available, but the most interesting thing is the weight, 4.? pounds. Interesting.

Good hunting. El Bee

[ October 01, 2020, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

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Kokopelli
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2020 07:25 PM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Just to try and make El Bee sputter;
ALL THAT YOU NEED IS ..............

A .22 long rifle handgun.
A .22 long rifle 10-22.
A .357 Magnum handgun.
A lever action .357 & a bucket full of .38 Special reloads.
A 30-30..........iron sights.
A scoped 30-06.
A 12 gauge pump.

Thus endeth today's lesson.

[Razz] [Razz] [Razz]

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When urinating outdoors, remember to face East, toward Mecca whenever possible.

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Leonard
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Icon 6 posted October 01, 2020 08:33 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, Chuckles!

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 28230 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
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Icon 1 posted October 02, 2020 11:52 AM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Oh ................ and a .223 with a decent scope and shooting sticks.
I knew I was forgetting something.

[Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

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When urinating outdoors, remember to face East, toward Mecca whenever possible.

Posts: 6031 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
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Icon 1 posted October 02, 2020 12:47 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
A .22 long rifle handgun.
A .22 long rifle 10-22.
A .357 Magnum handgun.
A lever action .357 & a bucket full of .38 Special reloads.
A 30-30..........iron sights.
A scoped 30-06.
A 12 gauge pump.

1) I have a Browning Buckmark which I think qualifies?

2)I have a Browning 22Auto, a takedown that should qualify?

3) I normally wouldn't be concerned, but I inherited A Ruger 357 that could easily survive the next couple hundred years, or so? Short analysis-neither fish nor fowl.

4) I just barely qualify with a Marlin 1883 44-40

5) here is where I go off the rails! a 30-30 is a piece of shit, I have no use for one!

6) another problem! Never, ever was a fan of the '06 and never owned one. Does a scoped Model 700 in 308W count?

7)Back on track, I have a badass 835 Mossberg which is a pump.

Now, how on earth can you omit from your list such things as an AR or a 45ACP, or even a 22-250Ackley Improved? For that matter, there is NO Ackley of any kind on your list, so I call BS! [Smile]

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: reply
I will only acknowledge 30-30 in context of 1894 technology. I seem to have heard that it was the first firearm to use smokeless powder?
And, dual use of ammo is one of those Canard things. Does a dual use comb and toothbrush have practical value? Besides, I carried, (off and on) a firearm in my limited career in the military that was chambered in 45ACP; and wasn't a handgun.
Since when is handling, and handling well, a wide range of boolit weights a valid consideration?
If your bucket list includes 50BMG, you must engage in self-flagellation. Talk about a cartridge with limited application!

[ October 03, 2020, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 28230 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
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Icon 1 posted October 02, 2020 02:22 PM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
The .45 is awesome but the .357 gets the nod for dual ammo use in rifle & handgun.
Tell the deer from the North Woods that are hanging on the meatpole in the sky that a 30-30 is no good.
Is there ANY other rifle that will handle the range of bullets that an '06 will and handle them well ????

And since everybody needs a bucket list rifle how about a .50 BMG !!!!

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When urinating outdoors, remember to face East, toward Mecca whenever possible.

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earthwalker
Cultural Editor & middleweight arm wrestling champion/Intermountain Region
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Icon 1 posted October 04, 2020 03:48 AM      Profile for earthwalker           Edit/Delete Post 
My 6.5 CM with the muzzle brake is kicking like the .243 I usually shoot. Since most elk around here stay at 500-600 yards out I had to get something that would reach out and touch them. .243 is a little lacking in that department with any knock down power behind it.

Other half picked up a CVA rifle with the bergra barrel on it in 6.5 the other day for $500 something. It'll be the pickup rifle for wolves or what ever. Everything seems to stay at that 500 yard range up here. Just need to find a muzzle brake for it. It didn't come with one and CVA don't make them.

We had to upgrade spotting scope and rifle scopes for this country. It's very big and long range country.

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Where the hell is all the game animals?

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted October 04, 2020 10:15 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
That seems to be a problem without a solution? The reason everything is 500 yards away is because you inhabit terrain that allows you to see them and them to see you. As an example, There is an area, I think it's called Grand Mesa in western Colorado and visibility is about as far as you could throw a rock. Another problem is the blowdown and it's virtually impossible to sneak up on an elk. I guess you have to become a statue and let them come to you? Of course, they don't do that during shooting hours. So, it's damned near a sanctuary situation until they need a drink or mate or migrate. Stay out of that unit, BTW.

Second, I'm not on board with 6.5 diameter bores for elk, and suitable bullets are hard to find and how do you know, when you find one? Get something in at least 7mm. If you are thinking I mean 7mmRemMag, yeah maybe but a 7X57 still has bullets with good coefficients. Anyway, that's your problem, but I don't see a 6.5 bore and 500 yards as a good combo. I agree that 243W wouldn't be my first choice. In fact, I haven't heard anybody claim that it might be good for women or juveniles; it's just not an intelligent choice where the heaviest bullet I'm aware of is the Speer 105 grain, which reminds me. That's the bullet I used in Africa on Kudu, and they are, no doubt, equal to Wapiti. Do as I say and not as I do. That wasn't my first choice, but it so happened that I left the 300 in camp, that day.

All of which is to say, minus the word salad, is: what's wrong with a 270 or a 280? Why are you interested in a 6.5?

Good hunting. El Bee

[ October 04, 2020, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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earthwalker
Cultural Editor & middleweight arm wrestling champion/Intermountain Region
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Icon 1 posted October 04, 2020 05:32 PM      Profile for earthwalker           Edit/Delete Post 
Because neither of us can handle the recoil. My shoulder won't let me and my .270 weighs a ton.
Other half got kicked in the head as a kid in sports and I know for a fact he can't take any kind of major recoil. He'll get a major headache that will last for a day or so.

We have all the old standard rifles of long ago. Hard to find some reloading components for some of them. And who doesn't need a new rifle now and then?

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Where the hell is all the game animals?

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted October 04, 2020 06:52 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
In that case, you have my blessing. Go forth and sin no more! Domenus vobiscum, ecum spiritutuo. Oramus!

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

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TOM64
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Icon 1 posted October 12, 2020 04:29 AM      Profile for TOM64           Edit/Delete Post 
I don’t have any hair left for a man bun nor would I wear one if I did but I’ve got a 6.5 CM. There I said it.

I always hated hearing from those with one and would avoid the idiots at all costs until a friend of mine bought a Fieldvraft in 6.5 CM and kicked my tail at 900 yards in the wind. I looked on paper and my 22-250AI with its 75 grain Amax was twice the cartridge as the 6.5 Needmore. But after seeing the results with a round that kicks about the same, I bought one.

Found a deal on a Bergara SPR with a puny 18” barrel and picked up a few boxes of 140 gr ELD-M’s that chronographed 25something. Dialed my dope and started busting the 17” 1000 yard plates. After a full afternoon of shooting I was sold.
 -
 -
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That little blue spec is out shooting bench in the last pic.
If I didn’t have a 1000 yard range I’m not sure I’d need one but my reloads push the 140 to 2700 FPS and it’s very easy to shoot. So ya I guess I like it.

Posts: 2282 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
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Icon 6 posted October 12, 2020 07:05 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, Tom. I guess there must be some magic? If I ever develop an interest in ringing steel, it is something to consider.

I still don't get it? What I mean is, I could buy a deluxe RV if I wanted one but I don't. I could buy a Creedmoor too, if I wanted one. So far, I am resisting the urge.

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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TOM64
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Icon 1 posted October 12, 2020 07:15 AM      Profile for TOM64           Edit/Delete Post 
It's a niche cartridge at best but aren't they all?

I've always had a soft spot for a 308 bolt gun and figure one day I might pick one up in a light Kimber Montana for a do it all hunting gun but I don't have the need so I ain't bought one yet.

The 6.5 CM is doing what it was designed to do, launching high BC bullets at modest velocities increasing barrel life and not bruising your shoulder up. If I wasn't banging steel, I would've never looked at it.

Now that said, my cousin burnt the barrel out of his 7 Mag (shooting steel) and rebarrelled to 28 Nosler. He's pushing the 162 Amax at 3200 FPS and I fired 2 rounds in 15 MPH crosswind, one at 500, the other at 860 and centered both 8" plates. That's magic!

Posts: 2282 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
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Icon 1 posted October 12, 2020 01:09 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I've been saying this for a long time. Everybody has a dream rifle. It can change as often as changing your underwear, but while fantasizing, it's a deadly aphrodisiac.

No offense, but a 308? That's such an ordinary nothing special cartridge, I wouldn't know where to start? No offense, remember?

Speaking of 7Mag, It came out while I was in the service, same as 300WinMag and what a conversation starter! I was convinced and that 300 was trash! Somehow, just out and just bought a house with my GI loan, I got a deal on a 700, the only problem was it was in 300. I fully intended to rebarrel it but in the meantime, worked up a load. Shit! I love that rifle, put it in a Macmillan stock and I don't shoot it a lot, never have and never needed to. But a 300WinMag is hard to beat and you can play with your numbers until the cows come home, but that rifle has always done everything I ever asked of it and all I can say is, it's a keeper!

Obviously, I'm not a big on acquiring a bunch of long guns I will never use but just HAVE GOT TO HAVE! It's pretty hard to keep a bunch of rifles dialed in, I am a little embarrassed to even admit that I own a 308, even deer hunted with it a couple times. It's set up right now for my big and clumsy Belarusian night vision. It solves the brush clutter problems better than hi velocity 22 & 24 rifles. So eventually, they all serve a purpose....I guess?

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: there's the word! Niche rifle!

[ October 12, 2020, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

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TOM64
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Icon 1 posted October 12, 2020 02:42 PM      Profile for TOM64           Edit/Delete Post 
No offense taken, it’s just a 308 but it’s the minimum caliber allowed for elk in Okieland. Never mind it’s a special draw and I never put in for it anyway but maybe if I had a 308...
Posts: 2282 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
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Icon 1 posted October 14, 2020 06:39 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
At the risk of beating this to death. I had a sudden thought that might illuminate my puzzlement about the magic of "Creedmoor".

It concerns the physical dimensions. Just imagine, if we could theoretically change that shape, get away from standard brass, change the shoulder angle, lengthen the body taper, but keep the same internal capacity. Would that change everything? Suddenly, your accuracy goes to shit, and anything else that seems to make this cartridge such a World beater? Or for example, there is an obscure cartridge called the 6.5 Remington Magnum. Yes, the case capacity is different, but we can play around with different powders as to burning rates, come up with the exact same muzzle velocity, and can we assume that as far as 800 yard accuracy, (using the same bullet), your steel plate would be in no danger.

I realize this is a little silly, but there are many cartridges with that bore size and suddenly we have only one that can ring steel with boring frequency. It's the case design, Pilgrim! Ya, right! There have been some examples, maybe Hatcher's Notebook, where it was hypothetically suggested that even a spherical balloon shaped case, as long as the capacity was identical, the internal ballistics wouldn't be different. That is an attempt to discount the physical case design as a factor in performance.

Maybe I'm getting out in the weeds, but I'm very puzzled by a dozen different rifle makers choosing this particular Clymer reamer and those rifles will shoot the house afire! Guaranteed!

Magic? I guess? Why should I fight success?

Good hunting. El Bee

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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TOM64
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Icon 1 posted October 15, 2020 03:00 AM      Profile for TOM64           Edit/Delete Post 
Case design is far over my head. I understand less taper and a sharper shoulder allows the case to handle more pressure and stretch less cause it can’t go anywhere. I also know that if you fill a case with bullet, it can’t hold as much powder. And then you have the available room to work with in the mag box.

Take all the things smarter people know and design a high BC bullet, case to house it in with the focus on long range accuracy and you come up with the CM. That’s just what the Hornady guys did. Saw a market and created something to compete in that market.

But the best thing is some smarter feller necked the 6.5 CM down to .224 and we now have the 22 CM which holds 1 more grain of powder than our beloved 22-250AI with out fire forming.

Edit: to be honest the 6.5 CM doesn’t really interest me but the results do. It’s weird because they’ve been using the 6.5 bullets to punch through all kinds of big critters for a hundred years but the only use I see for it is to defy the wind. Probably cause everything will punch through big critters given the right bullet but it takes something to defy the wind like it does.

[ October 15, 2020, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]

Posts: 2282 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged


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