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Author
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Topic: Let's talk cartridges for coyotes
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 18, 2020 09:35 PM
LB,
Trust me I went kicking and screaming on the Suppressor deal. For the reasons you mentioned. Cost, Tax Stamp, and the wait. But my brother kind of got the bug along with my oldest son, so I took alittle Overtime money and decided to go for it. I ended up going with the Thunderbeast Ultra 7 .223.....Since now other than my .270 Win. Which I very rarely shoot anyway, all the rifles I own anymore are .22 Caliber and down.. It seemed like the best option. I know it sounds cliche but the only thing I regret is that I didn’t do it 30 years ago. It really does make shooting fun again. It does take a little getting used to though. Seems like Recoil is about 50% less and you are expecting that Boom but all you get is a Pop.....And yes I have killed more multiples since I started using one.... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ February 18, 2020, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 19, 2020 10:36 AM
Okay, thanks. But all I can say is I'm LEANING that way. IDK? maybe what we are paying for is the technology? Because they sure don't look that hard to make.
Actually, I made one myself about 25 years ago specifically for my AR15. Because it was already threaded for the flash hider. I know it's illegal and I'm just bullshitting anyway, and they won't take me alive, suckers!
Anyway, just like everything else, I'm usually way ahead of the curve. You should see the first electronic caller I made myself, using an 8 track Motorola tape deck. The finest available, at the time. I used an aircraft battery, so I could also plug in a spotlight for walking up cats, at night. Made a frame for it, like a backpack and when those cats would hang up, we would break out the gear and walk them up, Amazing how they would stay put and let you get close enough for a shot. I don't know how many cat I bagged that way, but it was very worthwhile.
Down Memory Lane with El Bee
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4354
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posted February 19, 2020 10:47 AM
It depends on your application I think. Leonard you have been a big night hunter shorter distances and a flat trajectory is what you are after. I think Chad has the same feelings. For me its been a business. Those rancher and game and fish departments don't really care what distance it is or if its windy. They pay for results. Like or dislike the heavy for caliber bullets they have there place. Trust me when I say shooting at distance those heavy for caliber high bc bullets are the only way to go. Range is a simple determination now days with all of these rangefinders. Wind however is the unknown variable and probably always will be. Sure you can use a kestrel and get a good idea at YOUR location but you have no idea what its doing between you and the target.
Posts: 172 | From: 2 miles east of Vic | Registered: Mar 2013
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 19, 2020 01:56 PM
Exactly! And, I always had to weigh the value, and the time spent in recovery and the total loss if I couldn't find him, or he crawled off leaving a blood trail; another time waster. So, knowing that crossing canyons and ridge-lines, you just had no idea how it was blowing over yonder. A following wind would count in favor of making the attempt, but it's difficult to explain to somebody that hasn't done it, how difficult recovery is, at night and without a dog. That's another thing, a dog in the truck at night is a pain in the ass for several reasons. Once in a while can help, but I'd say maybe 5% of the time, a benefit. I found them my myself because I had to be 99% confident of the shot in the first place, and the animal had to be positioned to some point of reference where I could walk right out there, no wandering around. Like I say, it's the law of diminishing returns. When you spend several hours tramping around on a mountainside, you don't want to waste half of your night, and the fact that I never give up. If I start out believing in the shot, I hang in there until I solve it. Takes discipline. But, if you don't learn from mistakes, it's a shame.
Like I mentioned, I did have the insurance in the vehicle and could break out the 25'06 Ackley if I really needed that animal and had checked all the boxes. Then, an intelligent decision would have to be made....not least of which; how are they running right now and could I have 4 or 5 more in the truck during the time I would waste tyrudging around in the dark. Oh, and coming back in the morning wasn't that fruitful either.
Another thing, at the time, most of the VLD long range, heavy for caliber bullets were not reliable killers. Think cripples. Nah, I have just been very careful about those "Hail Mary's" for putting fur in the truck. And, don't think I have not given the matter a lot of thought, because I have. Like I said, that's how I roll and it works for me. I have no problem with anyone's solution, I'm just offering a few that seemed to make sense for me.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 19, 2020 07:40 PM
I picked up my Commander today and enquired about my idea of having all my barrels turned and threaded for a suppresser. This guy told me it's illegal and a felony to even have a threaded barrel. I have a hard time believing that? So, I said, why can't I send these barrels to Nevada and have it done? He still thinks I would be in violation.
Manis this place fucked up! To hear you guys extolling the virtues of suppressed fire, and yet, this state is determined to make anybody a criminal who wants to save their hearing.
Liberals are so fucked up, it's unbelievable! And, the conservatives in this state have to march to their tune. I know, nobody has an ounce of sympathy.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: he also said each suppresser has to be designed specific for each barrel. I'm not buying it and I'm wondering if I should give him any more of my business?
[ February 19, 2020, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 27, 2020 10:20 AM
I just bought 1000 of the Hornady 45 grain Softpoints in .204 Caliber, and I have about 1000 35 grain Bergers left in .204 Caliber. Shot both loads on paper and they shoot damn near in the same Spot at 100 yards. And drop is damn near identical too. The 45’s going almost 3600 fps and the 35’s at almost 3900 fps...... I think I’m going to stick with only this rifle on called Coyotes this entire year, and see how it turns out. I’ll shoot the 45 softpoints this spring,summer, and early fall along with the occasional contest or night hunt. Then around the first of November I’ll switch to the 35 Bergers for the fur season. See how it pans out with only one rifle......
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 27, 2020 01:32 PM
It depends on if they pass through, near or far, or if they rip them inside of a hundred. I'd be a little skeptical the 35 would do it all. But, you're the boss.
That's always been a very difficult situation for me. Finding a dependable bullet that can handle every presentation and every range. That's why I usually pick a fairly beefy bullet that passes through and depend on hydrostatic shock for bang/flop.
With a can, I suppose performance is slightly different?
Pray for California
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 28, 2020 06:49 AM
I hear ya Leonard. That’s kind of how I am with my guns. I love my .204 Ruger for fur on day stands. But my 22-250AI has really proven to be a Coyote killer in most of my calling situations. I thought maybe the 45 grain would pick up the slack where the 35’s were lacking but I’m probably fooling myself. I’ll probably be back shooting the Ackley sooner than later.......
This Combination I’m shooting now has probably been the best setup overall I've ever had in a Coyote Rifle..... That being my .22-250 AI with 60 grain Bergers at 3700 fps Suppressed.
But again for a day stand fur gun my .204 Ruger with the 35 grain Bergers running almost 3900 fps Suppressed. Out to 250-300 yards is a sweet setup too.
Good Hunting Chad
[ February 28, 2020, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 28, 2020 08:30 AM
You know, Chad, I built my first 22-250Ackley probably 25 years ago and it really was; Died and Gone to Heaven. First rifle that I felt, could do it all! It's really amazing, when you think about it. At the time, I had been using my 220Swift and the only problem was, actually two, case life and accuracy in that Model 77 Ruger. Besides that, I was using mostly Benchrest target bullets, 52 and 53 grain, in a vain attempt to squeeze every ounce of accuracy possible.
I sure killed a shit pot full of coyotes with that rifle! And, with the 22-250AI, I started out with 52 and 55 grain bullets. With velocities around 4,300fps, the accuracy was a lot better than I ever saw with the Swift, 3/4" vs 1/2".
But, those Bergers wouldn't hold together at those velocities and that's when I stumbled on to the 65 grain, which is still the best, but they broke the mold or something and the new one turned out to be 63. But, with the 12 twist and a velocity above 3900, they passed through a coyote, consistently, didn't matter if it was 25 yards or 250. And, stone dead, bang/flop. For my purposes, you couldn't ask for better performance.
That's still my "go to" night rig, but for the past 4 years or so. This 22-243 Middlested is working great with the same bullet. The barrel is shorter and 150fps slower even with almost 4 more grains of powder. But, I can't ask for a more effective day gun, I love it! It rips fox and cats, though. Can't have everything.
Everybody has a dream, can't talk them out of it, even Minneesota farmers. lol Especially farmers!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 28, 2020 10:18 AM
Yeah I was out calling Coyotes a few days ago and shot a Redfox with my Ackley, and those 60 grain Bergers at 3700 fps really blew a big hole in that little sucker.
Yeah I’m still pissed at Berger, for there discontinuing Bullets all the time. That’s why I blew almost $300 bucks on 1000 of the 35 grain Match bullets for my .204......I did the same damn thing with the 60 grain bullets too bought 1000 of those too... You just never know when they will stop production... I only bought a couple boxes of 64 grain Bergers when I first rebarreled my Ackley and guess what? Yep no longer in production.... Glad I didn’t waste my time working up a load with that bullet.....
But the one that really got me pissed was there 17 Caliber 22,25,30 grain Match bullets. They were great bullets and it seemed like all the real Fur hunters loved them. Was a huge reason I built a 17 Ackley Hornet, and 17 Tactical.... Ended up going with Kindler Bullets after that. Now they are gone too.
I really don’t know why I don’t just stop using Bergers. Oh, yes I do they seem to be the most accurate and best killing bullet I’ve used....
Good Hunting Chad
[ February 28, 2020, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 28, 2020 02:00 PM
You know, of course, that Walt Berger sold that company a long time ago. The people calling the shots now appear to be bean Counters. Any innovation there ever was at Berger Bullets is gone. They bought the existing technology and it's now in a time warp. Even their categories confuse the hell out of me. I swear, I have to look all over the site to find what should be so easy, a blind man could find what he's looking for. I can't even explain it, but I do not see any logic, and I can't even explain my beef. Must have been designed by a real computer whiz?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 28, 2020 03:46 PM
Well luckily I should have enough bullets for all the guns I shoot to last me the rest of my hunting days.... I definitely don’t shoot as much as I used to. Mainly just Coyotes anymore......
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted February 28, 2020 04:26 PM
I'm just a pointed stick guy and usually stay out of bullet threads but trust me on this one;
Once the Bean Counters take over a company, that company is doomed to a slow and ugly death.
If you have a favorite bullet ........... stock up.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 28, 2020 07:16 PM
That's gold, ko ko! I'm going to write that down and have it laminated for my wallet! Thank you!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted February 28, 2020 07:22 PM
No charge.
Just remember me when the yearly dues notices go out.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted February 29, 2020 05:42 AM
I noticed on my 204, a Kimber Montana, that the 35 grain Bergers, 40 grain Bergers and 40 grain Hornady factory ammo all have close enough zero's that I can switch back and forth without worry. I actually zero at 200 yards with the 40 grain Bergers and the Hornady ammo is right there as well. The 35's are close enough at 100 that you can't really tell any difference. Makes it nice when I concentrate on cats, I just switch bullets.
I've had one coyote take a few rounds with the 22-250ai and 55 gr NBT's but that was my fault for getting excited when he snuck up behind me. Better shot placement beats a better bullet all the time.... Now I just shoot 75 Amax's out of it to cheat the wind.
But here it is, prime time for coyotes and I'm off to another pistol match. One day I'll get back into it and I doubt there will be anything better than what I've already got.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 29, 2020 07:20 AM
Yeah Tom,
That was kind of my thoughts with my .204 I could shoot the 45’s through most of the year, and the 35’s during Fur season and not have to resight in my gun. But it really hasn’t been a big deal switching back and forth from 22-250AI to 204 Ruger. It really hasn’t mattered much lately anyway....Hell are Bobcat population is very low now same with Fox. Even the Coyote population has tanked, I have only shot half the number of Coyotes the last Couple years as I have each year in the previous ten years.... Hope it bounces back this year......
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 29, 2020 08:16 AM
Hey Tom. Did you have to buy a special seating stem for those 75 AMax? I had a little bulge in the copper jacket just back of the plastic tip. Never did get a suitable stem and my twist didn't work anyway, but that thin jacket doesn't support when you seat a long bullet deep and if it involves any crushing of propellant, at all. I was actually thinking of doing the modification myself, but it had better be dead nuts! Anyway.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted February 29, 2020 08:22 AM
For the most part I rarely shoot at anything past 300 yards, just don't seem to have that many hang-ups, usually. Probably the main reason that I am still happy shooting the high powered pellet gun, 17-204. Can't say that I don't lose one every now and then, but I couldn't say that I ever did back in the day when I was shooting larger cals. Blame myself for poor shot placement instead of lack of horsepower.
With that said,
quote:
he also said each suppresser has to be designed specific for each barrel. I'm not buying it and I'm wondering if I should give him any more of my business?
Leonard, this guy don't have a clue of what he's talking about, at least in the suppressor department. A guy can take a .30 cal suppressor and put it on any smaller caliber he so chooses to, with very few excepts such as probably best to avoid on rimfires. Or, another example, a guy could have a .22 cal suppressor and run it on everything from a .220 swift down to a .17 hornet.
True that a suppressor is the most efficient if it's cal specific, in other words a smaller caliber then what a suppressor is made for won't be as efficient at capturing gases as it will be when used on the caliber that it's made for. Probably hard to hear the difference, but it's there.
Like so many others, I don't have a rifle that isn't adapted for a suppressor these days. From my .300 win mag down to my .17 Hornet. Speaking of the .300 win mag, it's actually much more pleasant to shoot with a suppressor then it is without. The suppressor reduces enough noise AND kick that it just makes it quite enjoyable to shoot.
It sucks that there are places that simply don't allow the ownership and use of suppressors. They should be as easy as a muffler for out cars to obtain. Good for health and environment.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 29, 2020 09:12 AM
Yeah TR is spot on about the Suppressors. As long as the rifle you are Suppressing has the same Threads as the Suppressor and the Caliber of the rifle is the same or smaller than the Suppressor you are using you can interchange at will. I bought the Thunderbeast Ultra 7 .223 Suppressor and can use this one Suppressor on my 22-250AI, 204 Ruger, 17 Tactical, and 17 Ackley Hornet...... But I kind of wish I had gotten the Ultra 7 30 caliber. For any guns I buy/shoot from .30 cal on down.....
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 01, 2020 05:53 PM
Just a regular set of Redding dies. Never had any problems seating the A max.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 01, 2020 06:27 PM
I don't want to dump on this guy. I had him repair a loose from sight on my combat commander and he replaced the adjustable part of the adjustable rear sight. I thought he was high, for $130, but about the suppresser discussion: I think he was completely full of shit. The first thing he said was it was illegal to even have the barrel threaded and then backed up and said he meant on a pistol. But the rest of it, suppressers are not allowed, and he said a felony. I didn't press him but the fact is they aren't approved in California and if you possess one, I suppose you could be charged?
I'm waiting for somebody with more money than me to test the law. In any case, I have a problem with the $200 tax and the cost of suppressers is exorbitant. Like I have said before, I made one myself 25 years ago for my AR since the barrel was already threaded. They ain't that tough to make, disassembly for cleaning would have been more difficult for me, but the theory is well known and pretty easy. Oh yeah, I don't have it any more so don't send SWAT tomorrow night! I wouldn't be stupid enough to keep it laying around!
But $1200 is ridiculous! You can buy a friggin' Kimber 45 for less than that, the whole friggin gun! Compare the machining and fitting. The cost of suppressers is way out of line. I don't want to say, "sucker" and you have to pay the going rate, but come on folks! I know how to run an engine lathe and a Bridgeport Mill. Those things are no doubt kinda sexy but they get too much for what it is. That's just my opinion.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 01, 2020 10:13 PM
I was told by a guy that should know, that 1911's and suppressor's don't mix if you're gonna shoot them a lot. Wears the gun out prematurely. And if CA doesn't approve them then yes, having one would be a felony. Back during the ban, threading a barrel was also illegal. Maybe CA adopted a similar law?
If your Smith does good work, keep using him. I lost the one I used cause he got tired of sorting out all the laws and fees.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 02, 2020 01:18 AM
Interesting little nugget on suppressing a Government Model 1911. Mine is a steel Combat Commander. Wonder if same caution would be advisable?
Also wonder if Sig's, (the ones available in the People's Republik) and Glocks and M&P's are more durable in that regard? Oh, right, not allowed so a mute point.
This state is so fuked up!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted March 02, 2020 04:33 PM
you can get into a suppressor for much less then $1200, if you're also willing to buy the least expensive, heavier steel version, or even go really cheap and buy a suppressor made out of aluminum, which is an option. The higher priced are made of titanium and made for the larger calibers and rated for higher pressures for cartridges such as .338 lapua, for example.
I don't mind the first $200 stamp, after all, someone is putting some man hours trying to dig up dirt on ya, and it can't be free. BUT, once I have passed the smell test once, why the hell do I have to pay for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th when you already have dug a hole looking for dirt and didn't find any. If a guy wants to buy several cans all at once, he should only have to pay $200., ONCE..
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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