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Author Topic: Suppressed rig bench racing
TRnCO
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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2015 12:38 PM      Profile for TRnCO   Email TRnCO         Edit/Delete Post 
cleaning a suppressor isn't an issue, unless you're running rim fire. Center fire, cleaning isn't an issue. Although, with that said, the maker of the suppressor that I use(S.A.S.) does recommend a periodic cleaning using a mixture of white vinegar, soaked over night, then flushed with water and allowed to dry. SO, no need to get a suppressor that comes apart, unless you run rimfire.
As far as wearing one out. Won't be an issue in our world. When you shoot rapid fire and/or SBR, then it MIGHT become an issue.
Also, as far as how well a .30 cal. suppressor works on the smaller calibers. Think about it like this. Your .17 predator simply puts out a lot less gas then does, say a .300 win. mag. SO, the suppressor works on the .300 Winny, but since there's less gas to capture when shooting a much smaller/much less powder, caliber, the suppressor will still be quite effective.
I can hear the difference, for example, between my .17 Hornet and my .223, using the same can. Obviously, the Hornet uses much less powder, produces much less gas to capture, although it's got a smaller bullet, it is still quieter than the .223. In other words, the smaller bullet going through the suppressor doesn't mean the suppressor isn't going to capture most of the gases.
I can also hear the difference in the sonic crack, between my hornet and my .17/204.

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Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
TRnCO
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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2015 02:36 PM      Profile for TRnCO   Email TRnCO         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Won't the thing be wore out or so outdated by then that it will simply be a piece of scrap titanium?
Did your pappy leave you any hand me down rifles? I think the suppressor will fall in the same category. There will be something newer, built better, and be all the snizzle some day, but it'll still work for the working man.
I don't know Fred, I'm not finding it hard to kill coyotes with my .17/204 with a 20" barrel. Still get plenty of speed to kill, apparently, even though it goes against wisdom?

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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!

Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lonny
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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2015 03:24 PM      Profile for Lonny           Edit/Delete Post 
I thought of that same analogy TR when looking at the longevity of a can and whether my suppressor will be passed on to my kids when I hit the dirt.

I hope the thing is still up and running 30 years from now and will be looked at as a good hunting investment. It's highly unlikely the thing will be wore out from me shooting coyotes or shooting anything for that matter. It's far more likely something much better will have come along.

Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
TOM64
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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2015 04:00 PM      Profile for TOM64           Edit/Delete Post 
Dave since OAL is a concern, check out Ops Inc. they have silencers that go back over the barrel and shave a few inches.

I went with a Gem Tech Outback IID 22LR can. Outdated technology but it weighs next to nothing (2-3 oz) is 1" in diameter and 5" long. To me it was the perfect "let's see if I really want to do this" can. It has taught me to never run rimfire ammo through a center fire can. They are filthy.

The only reason I looked at the Omega was our pigs. A subsonic 240 gr bullet will let you kill a few more pigs than shooting supersonic. Guys with night vision and cans are making a killing (pun intended) off our ranchers.

For coyotes, I'd just get a 223 can to minimize the weight and size.

Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2015 05:30 PM      Profile for Prune Picker   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Does anyone with a suppressed hot rod rifle have access to a chronograph? I have been told that when using the newer cans you actually gained some speed back that offsets using shorter barrels. Fur Dude, have you shot the same loads on the same day with & without the can attached? ( hint - hint ). Many years ago when using a can , even the ones that resembled a 6 D cell Maglite it was common knowledge that you were going to lose upwards of 200 fps on most anything. Remember the "For use in Machine Guns Only" ammo box labels?

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mike

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CrossJ
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Icon 1 posted June 16, 2015 07:01 PM      Profile for CrossJ   Email CrossJ         Edit/Delete Post 
PP, I mentioned that in another thread. There isn't the standard formula as would be seen with barrel length, but with a can, the gases are not released immediately, which will tend to negate some of the velocity loss due to just shortening the barrel. Consequently, pressure issues can arise from a load developed prior to using a can. This I have seen first hand.

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knockemdown
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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2015 03:55 AM      Profile for knockemdown   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I don't know Fred, I'm not finding it hard to kill coyotes with my .17/204 with a 20" barrel. Still get plenty of speed to kill, apparently, even though it goes against wisdom?
TR, I like what you did with your .17/204 & think it is a pretty sweet combo!
Just sayin', I'd sooner re-barrel to a 'shorty' 6x45 before chopping 4-6" off the end of my .17Predator.
That's strictly based on my own limited experience with both cartridges. A 55gr Nosler B-tip or 60gr Sierra HP crowding 3K from a 16" tube is a nasty little bugger. Even with a 6" can on the end, that'd still be plenty handy little rifle!

Only reason I went with a 22"er on this 6x45AI is because it's twisted 1:8" to stablize 95gr bullets & I wanted to squeeze what I could outta that little sucker. Otherwise, a 16-18" woulda been a honey for a can to screw onto...

In the case of your .17/204, you've got ooodles of horsepower behind a tiny bullet, so the extra case capacity mitigates velocity loss from hamstringing barrel length.
Whatever "wisdom" dictates, I don't know? But its common knowledge that increasing bore size from a parent case improves the efficiency of the available powder. Simply because, the same net pressure is now working against more surface area, IE rear surface area of the bullet. By improving the efficiency of a case, you can mitigate the velocity lost from going with a shorter barrel...

Different means to the same end, I suppose?

Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
DAA
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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2015 05:37 AM      Profile for DAA   Author's Homepage   Email DAA         Edit/Delete Post 
It pains me to chop barrel length off a hot rod, absolutely.

But, since I want to use a barrel I already have, if I can, and all the candidate barrels are hot rods...

The two most likely suspects, as far as barrels already on hand, are both currently at 25", a .20-250 and a 6-284.

Currently running 38's @4200 in the '250 and 55 NBT's @4250 in the 6-284.

Figure, after cutting down to 20", should still be seeing over 4K with either? Some of the pixie dust is going to be lost, for sure, and that does pain me, but, either one is still going to be pretty flat - the Big Twenty still comfortably ahead of the .204R and the Big Six running at about .243 Win. velocity. That's presuming a loss of 40-50 fps, per inch of barrel. If the loss is less, as seems very possible, they'll still be hot rods. Just running restrictive exhausts [Big Grin] .

Who knows though. It's early. I have others I can chop, that might make more sense. Just hate to mess with success on most of them. Heck, still might just order up a new blank and have one purpose chambered here, in which case, something a bit more efficient likely would get the nod. But, More Power Scott! When in doubt throttle out! The need for speed! Life starts at 4200 fps! Etc., etc., etc., is who I am, so I doubt I'd go "too" efficient. Maybe emulate Fur's recent build, 20 inch .22-250AI? I'd be sorely tempted to make it a .22-243 instead though. Just can't help myself [Big Grin] .

- DAA

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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.

Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter

Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
TRnCO
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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2015 05:40 AM      Profile for TRnCO   Email TRnCO         Edit/Delete Post 
either way Dave, my bet is that once you get a suppressed rig set up and in use, you'll struggle to take out the others without a suppressor attached.

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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!

Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2015 06:51 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm just really amused at the dreamers coming out of the woodwork. Nothing excites like a new build. And sure, I've been there. Like many others, I have a safe full of "the perfect rifle" at one time or another. Not making fun of. But, thinking honestly, all you guys have adequate coyote medicine that was last year's concept. I appreciate Dave's practicality in modifying an existing barrel ....as long as it will still do four grand.

But, that might necessitate a change in formula or you will have a flamethrower of unburnt powder trying to make use of six inches of barrel that is no longer there. And then, it might be back to square one; a different and faster burning powder.

Really, is a can the greatest thing since sliced bread? I have not heard anybody say; "meh, I'm not sure it's worth it?" When all is said and done, nobody wants to think they spent $1200/$1500 for no good reason. Understand, I'm not poking fun at Y'all, I'm just a skeptic with poor hearing.

I always had a practical wife, and babies to feed. The question that stopped me cold, every time: why do you need a new "thing"? Just because didn't work with her.

I apologize. Please continue. I will duck and run.

Good hunting. El Bee

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Brent Parker
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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2015 08:03 AM      Profile for Brent Parker   Email Brent Parker         Edit/Delete Post 
I currently have 3 centerfire suppressors 1 rimfire and an sbr. 2 of them are Titanium. Rifles are heavy enough and I enjoy the weight savings. Barrel length I run on shorter side my .223 is 12.5" my .223 AI is 18" I am cutting my 6xc to 18" and my 260 is 22". Suppressor are 6", 7.5" sbr suppressor and 9" 30 cal suppressor. The 30 cal suppressor doesn't work very well on the .17 and 20 cal in comparison to my .22 centerfire suppressor. All of mine are direct thread. I like to see at least 1/16 of meat minimum on a barrel over thread diameter and more is better. Its nice if your smith is local when he gets ready to thread the barrel to go down there and fit the threads for your suppressor for the tightest fit possible. I coat my threads with anti-seize before installing and make sure to look down the bore with the suppressor on and tight to verify correct alignment.
I have mentioned it before but in my local area the brush can be tight in areas and I shot more doubles the first year I ran a can than all the years prior. They do help.

Posts: 172 | From: 2 miles east of Vic | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
DAA
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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2015 08:26 AM      Profile for DAA   Author's Homepage   Email DAA         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the input Brent.

Things are getting murkier, sorta. To be expected, as I start to learn, the complexities start to emerge.

First thought was a .30 cal, one size to fit all. Second thought was if I'm going with the .20-250 to start, might be better to use a .22 can. Third thought was nawww, likely be using it on 6mm eventually. I'm still forming the fourth though [Big Grin] .

Been reading a bit about "First Round Pop". As a coyote rifle, every shot will be a "first shot". How much is there to this?

Just skimming several articles, far from knowing what I'm talking about yet, but it does sound like some cans suffer FSP worse than others - with that Silencero Omega being talked about as one that suffers the phenomena noticeably.

Have read that the Thunder Beast is a good one for avoiding FRP.

May be much ado about nothing. But if it's not nothing, it's going to factor into my choice. Definitely something I need to dig into further.

No telling how many more times I'll change my mind as I go along here, but I think the new clubhouse leader is the TBAC Ultra 7.

And if running a .20 caliber through it is going to be louder than a 6mm, I might even change over to the 6-284 for the guinea pig. Or not... I want to get back into selling fur, prices have been pretty good the last few years and that Big Six just ain't a fur rifle by any stretch of the imagination.

- DAA

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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.

Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter

Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
TRnCO
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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2015 09:59 AM      Profile for TRnCO   Email TRnCO         Edit/Delete Post 
I've never heard FRP, and I've hunted with 3 others that have suppressors different than mine, and I never heard it from their rifles either. So apparently, some suppressors have it and some don't.
Didn't even know what it was until readin' about it on da net.
I've gone 4 full seasons with my suppressor now. I had never killed a quad. before going suppressed, and now I've killed at least one quad. each season since, with 2 quads last season. In my mind, they tells me that I'm either getting better at calling, better at shooting, better at handling coyotes, finding higher density of coyotes, or a suppressor makes a difference, or one of or all of the above. [Big Grin]

[ June 17, 2015, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: TRnCO ]

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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!

Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2015 10:11 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, very good input, Brent. And, Dave. I have a sudden thought about the possibility and desirability of dual purpose cans. Somebody mentioned different muzzle caps for different calibers, I assume the theory is a thirty caliber screwed onto a 6mm, and screwing on a 24 caliber end piece?

But, is the alignment so "iffy" that we would need to check to see that the holes line up? That sounds like poor quality precision machining, to me? Hell, even I can single point a few threads and know how to tap a hole, fairly well.

Reminds me of when I built mine. I took the rig up to the high desert and strapped it to a spare tire. Operated the trigger remotely with some 550 cord and the reason was concern about alignment since the exit diameter was bare minimum. Had nothing to worry about, I used a lock nut to position and vent gasses in various orientations, which was to counter the effects of recoil.

So, what about a happy medium? A universal can that is "good enough" for just about any rifle and cartridge combination? And, what are we striving for? Noise reduction, or the quietest possible? I have seen a few over in Africa, (damned few, actually) but they were more like a foot and a half long, used for culling herd animals.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: TR, about ten years ago, I killed six on a stand, with a plain vanilla Model 600 Reminton in 6mm, 18.5" barrel. Sometimes the multiples are, (can be) more a factor of terrain, brush and good visibility than just a loud or quiet rifle. FWIW

[ June 17, 2015, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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Posts: 31334 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2015 11:31 AM      Profile for knockemdown   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
If one were to, say, do an internet search for, say, a site called preppersdiscount, one might stumble across a "solvent trap" that might be of some service for those with a threaded tube. Never know when one might find the need for a "solvent trap" made from a flashlight, ya know?

Just sayin'...

Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2015 03:07 PM      Profile for Lonny           Edit/Delete Post 
Dang Dave, I never heard of FRP until you brought it up...

This video, if you have 14 minutes t waste, talks about frp and in some cases you can almost hear and defintely see the variance in decibels. Especially the first shot compared to the second.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL2Q2DIX76o

[ June 17, 2015, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Lonny ]

Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
DAA
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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2015 05:24 PM      Profile for DAA   Author's Homepage   Email DAA         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, it's news to me too.

Definitely seems real though. The physics add up and the few videos I've watched of suppressor testing are all showing the first shot a lot louder than subsequent shots. Just watched a very short video testing the Omega and the first shot on every rifle was about twice as loud as the second shots were.

So, I'm pretty well convinced it's quite real. What I'm not at all clear on, is whether there is really much of a difference between makes and models in this regard. "People say" that there is. But I haven't seen any hard data showing one better than another yet.

If there really is a significant difference, it's something I'll definitely take into account. After all, first round is just about all I'm interested in.

Something to chew on for a bit!

- DAA

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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.

Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter

Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19

Icon 1 posted June 17, 2015 06:16 PM      Profile for Lonny           Edit/Delete Post 
Dave do you have any links to the videos you mentioned? I'd like to see them, if it's not too much trouble.

On the link I posted, there was a difference in some suppressors of 3-5 decibels from the first shot to the second. While others were only a couple decibels or less in difference from shot 1 to 2.

One thing I noticed in the vid I posted was some suppressors with virtually almost no frp were still louder on shot one than others that varied several dbs from first to second shots.

Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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Icon 1 posted June 18, 2015 03:23 AM      Profile for DAA   Author's Homepage   Email DAA         Edit/Delete Post 
Lonny, I just watched the one you linked and like you said, not all of those showed it. And also like you said, some that did, were still quieter than some that didn't.

The really short one I saw was on The Silencer Shop site, give me just a sec and I'll find it...

[url=http://blog.silencershop.com/video/silencerco-omega-test/]Omega test[url].

If I'm reading the tea leaves right - and maybe I'm not, but from some quick reading up on decibels and volume yesterday, I think that in the 130 decibel range, a difference of 4 or 5 decibels is fully twice the volume. In the video you posted the guy says at the end that a difference of 3 is "quite significant".

But, the lesson I think I'm getting here, is I'd rather have one that goes 137 on the first shot then drops to 134, than one that goes 139 on the first shot and stays there!

- DAA

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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.

Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter

Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
3 Toes
El Guapo
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Icon 1 posted June 18, 2015 03:49 AM      Profile for 3 Toes           Edit/Delete Post 
Dave, just so you know cause you didn't ask when you were here. My supressor is a Thunderbeast 30 P1. I use it on everything from .204 up to 7 mag. Seems to work for me. I didn't chop all barrels but the ones I did are no shorter than 22". In my 22x47 lapua I lost about 120 fps by chopping 4 inches, but I was shooting a fairly mild load and with a little powder and primer tweaking I was able to get 100 fps of that back.

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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.

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Brent Parker
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Icon 1 posted June 18, 2015 05:50 AM      Profile for Brent Parker   Email Brent Parker         Edit/Delete Post 
Dave,
I think if you go with a good manufacture it won't be a problem, Thunder Beast makes great cans and you won't go wrong with one of their products. A buddy of mine just bought an ultra 7 for a 20" 300 Win. mag. Waiting to get it out of jail. He talked with TB quite a bit before purchase and it sounded like the 7" Ultra was the best compromise of length and suppression. I have a SAS Arbitor and have been happy with it. Once you start shooting suppressed its hard to go back the other way. Its uncivilized I tell you!!

Leonard with threading its better to look and verify, with all the expense and long wait I would rather not risk it. So far everything I have had threaded has been spot on. Just cautious.

Posts: 172 | From: 2 miles east of Vic | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
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Icon 1 posted June 18, 2015 06:07 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting video. One thing he says at the end is three decibels is significant. Which just happens to be the difference between FRP and subsequent rounds.

Something I noticed, and I saw more different suppressors than I have seen before, they all look the same and they all have about the same effect. Therefore, since they are not magic, all we are talking about is basically washers as baffles, so longer is more effective.

Maybe what they are saying, in 30 caliber devices, is that 140dB is adequate? Used on an AR, not a big difference? In my opinion.

So, maybe the titanium 8" unit is more better? But, the concept of a can designed for 30 cal. is suitable for smaller diameter cartridges. One thing about the weight savings, over steel is that it's non ferrous. Won't rust. But susceptible to oxidation in the welding process, kinda like trying to weld galvanized. A yellow film which tells you that the weld was bad. But, it's easy to do over. The thing about titanium, (and I have welded this metal before) is that you have to be quick and not get it too hot. (edit) you need to flow your inert gas for cooling process, after the spark)

Anyway, I can't think of a reason to not get titanium, except the price and the price is probably justified? It's lighter, it won't rust, much less malleable, in fact, it's brittle. Anyway, you probably will not dent it?

Good hunting. El Bee

[ June 18, 2015, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31334 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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Icon 1 posted June 18, 2015 08:03 AM      Profile for DAA   Author's Homepage   Email DAA         Edit/Delete Post 
Good to know Cal! Thunderbeast is looking better all the time.

And Brent, yeah, I'm thinking so. It didn't take too long hunting with Scott and Cal to decide I needed one. After I get used to using one, I suspect I'll have a hard time not.

It will be next week before I can get to it, but I need to get on the phone with TBAC. I'd prefer direct thread, but not sure I have enough meat on my #4 barrels to make it work well. They are about .720 at 20". It's going to be close, I think.

- DAA

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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.

Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter

Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
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Icon 1 posted June 18, 2015 09:54 AM      Profile for Brent Parker   Email Brent Parker         Edit/Delete Post 
DAA,
worst case you have the gunsmith turn your barrel down to diameter of shoulder slightly behind the threads and put a sleeve that's pressed on for the suppressor to seat up against. Have had this done on two rifles and while its not the prettiest thing in the world
its not too bad if done with some taste. It worked great on the two I did.

Posts: 172 | From: 2 miles east of Vic | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
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Icon 1 posted June 18, 2015 10:34 AM      Profile for Fur_n_Dirt   Email Fur_n_Dirt         Edit/Delete Post 
You see, you had one of those fancy savages, you could just screw a new barrel in a few minutes and keep the fancy hot rod barrel for another day.. ;-)

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