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Author
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Topic: Suppressed rig bench racing
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted June 15, 2015 10:49 AM
Okay, going to do a little bench racing here...
Suppressed rig is in my future. Not real soon, gotta work it into the budget and the process takes some time anyway. But, it's going to happen.
So...
Going to ask a bunch of questions and do a lot of just thinking out loud in this thread. See where it takes me.
I know I can just google all this stuff and I'm sure I'll do a lot of that too. But, I also know there are some guys here with experience and whose opinions I value, so, why not ask here?
With that out of the way... Some questions I have right out of the gate:
- How much length will the suppressor add? Likely varies by make and model, I'm sure, but what's the range? Performance hit for trying to keep it shorter?
- How much barrel diameter is required for the suppressor threads? Don't know if I'll be buying a new barrel or lopping off and threading an existing one, but the required diameter might narrow the field of candidates I already have on the shelf.
- Thoughts on going to the trust route on license?
- Any theoretical or practical disadvantage or performance hit to using a smaller caliber, like a .204 or even a .17 with a .30 cal can?
- What can do you have? Anything you'd do different? Would you get the same one again now? Don't have one, but ahead of me in research? What's looking good to you?
That's enough questions for starters!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 15, 2015 01:00 PM
Well, I have questions, too. I don't own one, of course, but I guess I could be convinced?
My experience is limited to a little range time with a full auto M4, and it was tolerable without plugs.
But, the cost of these things! Am I correct in assuming we are looking at maybe a grand plus the treasury stamp?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted June 15, 2015 01:49 PM
Plus the cost of having a barrel or barrels threaded for it.
I'd like to skip the cost of a new barrel, but not sure if that will work or not. Have to see. The two I think I'd consider, are a .20-250 or a 6-284. Neither one of which am I thrilled about chopping down to 20 or 21 inches. And, either one of which, might be a bit much to suppress, at those lengths? They are louder than hell at 25".
If those don't have enough diameter for the threads, I might cut down a .243AI barrel I have.
Or, buy a new one. Maybe even get on for a Savage, just to save some dough? Naaaaawwww... Scratch that. If I get a new barrel I'll have to have it fit and chambered to one of my nice actions.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 15, 2015 02:08 PM
No experience whatsoever, but I wouldn't worry about the barrel suitability for threading. There are dozens of threads, American and metric that you could have custom machined if your concern is an existing small diameter barrel. Assuming it would be a dedicated attachment. Yes, from what I hear, they are standardizing the thread pitch but it doesn't have to be, this is very basic machine shop work.
I assume the sound suppression is a linear formula. A six inch can will give you X number of dB reduction and a ten inch will give you that much more. So, if you need to (effectively) supress a 6-284, you would be looking at a fairly longish can.
So, time for the testimonials. Bring it on.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
Member # 4107
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posted June 15, 2015 02:17 PM
Dave , you might consider an existing used, but not quite used up barrel to start with. Remember the muzzle brake craze in the 90's? One other thing, in fact about the only worthwhile info I can offer is, INSIST on a test drive on any and all products that might interest you. Lots of pretenders out there waiting to take your cash who haven't a clue what a dedicated and knowledgable person expects/demands.
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mike
Posts: 1265 | From: "Oklahomie" | Registered: Mar 2012
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 15, 2015 02:29 PM
Silencerco Omega.
7", 14oz, 5.7-300 WM rated, FA rated, different end caps for different calibers 5/8x24 or 1/2x28 or QD attachments.
One of the smallest yet quietest cans on the market now.
I know there are folks here who know more than I but this is the first one to get me thinking about another one.
http://silencerco.com/products/omega/
[ June 15, 2015, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted June 15, 2015 04:59 PM
Have to agree with Tom...5/8 x 24 for barrels with a rem varm contour or similar.
I dont like any with the quick detach threaded muzzle break with the exception of the silencerco omega. I have witnessed others go down range, but the omegas locking system is much better. The omega would be my choice at this point for quality and value.
Silencerco's harvestor is also a good choice....they were on sale for a little over 500$ which made them one of the best buys for the buck.
Barry Bass at silencer tech makes some good cans also. I have run his Rhino (small compact) but frankly didn't care for its quieting abilities. His 3G is a much better can, but bigger. Thats what you will find, its hard to get top performance out of a small can. I can message you Barry's number if you want. He is a good source of knowledge, super nice guy and a coyote hunter.
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted June 15, 2015 05:01 PM
Oh yeah, you can thread an existing barrel, but be sure to index off of the bore and maintain a good crown. Also, definitely go with a trust.
Lb, the 'linear' concept is somewhat correct in the fact you are dealing with compressed gases (larger cartridge, more gases), but cooling of gases is also a factor. Baffle designs are crucial and thus kept secret and patented. So yes, size does matter, but the efficiency of the plumbing is crucial also...but who doesn't know that....lol.
[ June 15, 2015, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: CrossJ ]
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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Aaron Rhoades
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4234
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posted June 15, 2015 06:46 PM
Dave, I don't have much experience but did some research before buying mine and this is what I found, on average, a .223 can will be 6 inches with a range of 5.5 to 7 or so. Negligible performance hit on the shorter can, internals design is the most difference. Typical .223 threading is 1/2x28, next step up is 5/8x24 for bigger calibers or there are different threading options other than that that I don't know anything about. Possibly for a .300 or .338 they want beefier threads? The trust route is the way to go in my opinion, for several reasons. One is so that if you pass on, whoever else is in your trust will be able to keep the suppressor. I believe the law enforcement signature requires it to go back to the feds if you pass on. Another reason is so you don't have to get the signature. The first suppressor I bought is at 3 years now and I still don't have it because the shop I bought it from set it up for CLEO signature originally even though I told them I wanted to go the trust route. Sure enough, our local guy wouldn't sign it and after messing around for months, I lost motivation. Finally this winter I bought a trust and got it going again. That one should be here in another 3 weeks or a month. A disadvantage with a .30 cal can on smaller calibers is the suppression won't be as good simply because the hole is bigger. It would still work fine though. Another suppressor that I got based on picking TR's brain was the SAS Sentinel Ti .223. I went with it for a bunch of the same reasons TR did, main one was TR liked it on a .17-.204 which is what I was going to be using it on, lightweight, I think 11-12 oz., it is titanium, which you will pay more for. Also one last thing that you should be able to identify, I have a Lilja #3 contour at 22 inches and it had enough meat to thread. I wanted short because of the extra length of the suppressor as this is a calling rifle and I figured I would be able to get my velocity still at 22 inches and I did. Any of that make any sense?
Posts: 155 | From: Washington | Registered: Oct 2012
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 15, 2015 06:49 PM
Right. I know that. I was speaking in relative terms, same design, more baffles, dictates a longer device.
Although a QD system kinda screams for attention, especially when you want to stick your gun in a case, threads make a lot more sense.
I don't know if the science is mature, or there could be significant breakthroughs in design that would allow for a more compact can? I'd hate to be the one that spends a grand on last years model.
Hey, everybody knows I'm a skeptic. But, under the right conditions I could be convinced. Right now, I can't get it out of my head that this is either a con or an elitist situation.
Yes, I know about the hearing loss but those game ears things have been around a long time. And, my hearing aids have a shooting mode.
Don't let me be a wet blanket. I want this issue completely wrung out.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted June 15, 2015 07:00 PM
Give me a call if you have any more questions..
- How much length will the suppressor add? 6" to 8" Likely varies by make and model, I'm sure, but what's the range? Performance hit for trying to keep it shorter? Yes, volume is an important parameter in dB
- How much barrel diameter is required for the suppressor threads? roughly 1/2"(length or more if I recall correctly)
Don't know if I'll be buying a new barrel or lopping off and threading an existing one, but the required diameter might narrow the field of candidates I already have on the shelf.
I have found that threads from barrel to can don't have to high tolerances, BUT the can should screw on a shoulder and the shoulder needs to be machined properly for good alignment. nicking the can is real bad
- Thoughts on going to the trust route on license?
Absolutely go the trust route. Do research, its the easiest and you can pass it on to your kids. no finger prints required, just a notary
- Any theoretical or practical disadvantage or performance hit to using a smaller caliber, like a .204 or even a .17 with a .30 cal can? I've read small performance hit; just make sure threads are compatible. My 22-250 Ackley required a 5/8 thread, not 1/2. 223 and under can do 1/2" w / no issues
- What can do you have? Anything you'd do different? Would you get the same one again now? Don't have one, but ahead of me in research? What's looking good to you?
you'll need to make the decision to buy a "light" or "heavier" can.. The light ones are much more expensive, but might be the best solution. Sucks to be carrying a real heavy gun all day that you don't like.
I've been impressed with Gemtech. Good product. They make a 30 can that's rated u to 300 win mag and would cover all of your lesser calibers!
[ June 15, 2015, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted June 15, 2015 07:09 PM
Dave, I'm really new at this stuff also, but I ordered a Silencerco Omega back in Feb. I got to hold it a month or so back, but it's not in my possession yet.
When holding the Omega, it didn't seem like enough to totally throw things outta balance, but since I have to get may barrel threaded anyway, I may shorten my 22-250 barrel to 22"
According to Silencerco, they say a minimum of .100" over thread size to give the suppressor a shoulder to mate up against. If a guy is going for the standard 5/8"-24, you can see you're in the .750" range.
For my #3 contour barrel, I'm going to have to buy a 1/2"-28 thread mount due to my barrel size. The Omega comes standard with 5/8"-24. So I'll have to spring for another $65 or so.
One thing I've noticed is this stuff costs. The suppressor, the tax, a trust, a different thread mount, barrel threaded, etc... BTW, I didn't do the trust thing. Might be a huge mistake, but I was tired of spending money.
At this point, I just want to use a rifle I have now threaded for the can. I can see where someday setting up a rifle with a shorter heavier barrel for a can might be the way to go. At this point though, I just want to get the damn thing and let my ears hear what this is all about.
[ June 15, 2015, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Lonny ]
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 15, 2015 07:10 PM
Trust vs individual vs corporation.
I don't have a trust and the dealer I used didn't know anything about them. If you have friends you want to loan your suppressor to, this is the way to go.
Individual, LE here is fine with suppressors and I went this route. My heirs can file a form to transfer after my death for $5 according to what I have read. I have a valid reason to not loan my suppressor to anyone. They can buy their own, I did.
Corporation, I do have a corporation and have a buddy who goes this route. I might want to sell out so I decided against that route.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted June 15, 2015 07:19 PM
On the topic of trusts, the guy I bought my can through talked me out of one. I don't have any plans on loaning it out, but am I missing something here?
How much did you guys spend to get your trusts. I found a local lawyer and he wanted $300-500! That's also part of the reason I said fuck'em.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted June 15, 2015 07:28 PM
Guys, what the hell?
My local dealer provided me a trust for free! They use the same one for all of their customers...
[ June 15, 2015, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted June 15, 2015 07:32 PM
Dave, I mailed my forms in mid December, and got my paperwork approved by mid March! Just a bench mark..
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 16, 2015 04:34 AM
Cheapest trust I've heard of was $100 till now.
Still don't see the need as long as LE is willing to sign off. I've already got fingerprints on file.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted June 16, 2015 05:05 AM
I also skipped the trust, was very simple but I can see if you live some where, where your LE won't sign off easily, then it might be a hassle. The other plus that I can think of with a trust, is you can have family members listed on the same trust, so that they too can be in possession of the suppressor, without you being in presence. And if you die, said family members simply take possession of the suppressor, without further paper work.
In general, you need .625" barrel OD for 1/2" x 28, and need approx. .725" for 5/8" x 24 threads. Gotta have a shoulder to snug up to.
I personally went with a .556/.22 cal. can to keep it as short, light, and small as possible. Lots of guys go with a .30 cal can so that they can run it on more rifles, instead of being limited to .22 cal and smaller. I rarely shoot larger cal. rifles, so that was a none issue for me. Plus, .30 cal cans are obviously larger and heavier. Seems a consensus that .30 cal will suppress smaller cals. just fine. Not necessarily as well, but well enough.
Threading, with thread protector, seems to run from $75. -$125 depending on where you are. Just make sure who ever threads the barrel knows what they are doing. There is a wrong way and a right way.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 16, 2015 05:18 AM
One benefit already, I knew nothing about the "trust" issue? Being the procrastinator that I am, I have not done anything about the succession issue. Recently, I read about how, in New York, they were confiscating firearms of deceased people! And soon after, while the heirs were still in shock. These people never rest!
I got a forward, (this morning) from a high school chum, from another classmate who was proudly announcing the fact that she had recently bought a Glock. I had no idea, I didn't know her well, but still, was surprised at the news. According to the accompanying photo, she has "matured" quite a bit since I knew her. Back then, she was a looker, for sure! I'm sure the reason I got the forward, (about Elaine) is because Marlane knows about my gun interests.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted June 16, 2015 06:47 AM
I see where Silencerco is offering Simple Trusts on their website for $129.
A guy could croak tomorrow, but the whole deal about being able to pass the suppressor on to my kids possibly 20-30 years from now seems a bit far fetched in my mind. Won't the thing be wore out or so outdated by then that it will simply be a piece of scrap titanium?
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted June 16, 2015 07:47 AM
Lots of excellent input from everyone. Thanks!
It's sounding likely that I can use an existing barrel. Will have to double check some measurements, but I think either my .20-250 or 6-284 barrels which are both Lilja #4's ought to work.
Out of those two, I think I'm leaning towards the .20-250. One reason being, that 6-284 is just so sweet the way it is, I hate to monkey with it. The other being, this will hopefully turn into a main squeeze and as such, some hope for fur friendly is a plus. Need to look at some numbers, but I believe the .20-250 at 20 or 21 inches is still going to be out performing the .204R by a comfortable margin.
The length is a real stumbling block for me. I don't like short barrels on hot rods, at all. But I also don't like overly long barrels for coyote hunting, don't like them at all. If the can is going to add 6 inches, I really think I'm leaning towards lopping the barrel off at 20 inches though.
A 20 inch barreled .20-250 is asinine though, just on the face of it? I think I'd choose something less extreme, if starting from scratch with a new barrel. And, might change course to use a different existing, or just suck it up and get a new one.
Thoughts? On such a short barreled fire breather? Am I going to be shortening the life of the suppressor, or needing to take apart for cleaning frequently, running such an overbore chamber?
And, you can believe, that I'm not letting just anyone go cutting on any of my barrels. I am one anal, picky, snobby son of a bitch when it comes to metal work on my barrels. Greg Tannel will most likely be who I have do that.
Need to do a lot more research, obviously, but it sure sounds like the Silencerco Omega is the clubhouse leader.
Sounds like I better do my homework on the trust thing, but it also sounds like it might be a choice made more by the local LEO situation than anything. My old next door neighbor, who bought a can just for plinking with his .22LR (he doesn't hunt), went the trust route and I think it might have been because of the potential for PITA and/or delay getting the LEO sign off. Our two families are going Jeeping together in Moab this weekend so I'll pick his brain some about that.
And, the expense... Hell, beyond a Walmart Savage .223 with a Tasco scope and a Sceery hand call, everything about this hobby is excess and impossible to justify for a recreational caller. But, a can, compared to say, a USO scope, seems like a pretty cheap thrill?
Thanks again for all the input!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 16, 2015 09:45 AM
Ouch! As an owner of USO Scopes, yes i get the comparison. Then, on the other hand, if you stop and think about the physics, design and engineering that goes into a high end optic, there is no comparison with a mechanical assembled piece of metal such as a surpresser. L B
edit: in other words, just about anybody can whip up a surpressor in their garage. In fact, I have done it, myself. I certainly wouldn't attempt to build a precision optic, as a hobbyist.
[ June 16, 2015, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted June 16, 2015 10:59 AM
DAA;
".............jeeping together in Moab"
It's been a long time since I was there, but if you take the Warner Lake Loop out of Moab, about a mile before the lake there's a two track on the left that takes you out on a bench & ends at a wilderness area. Awesome place to camp a couple of hundred yards off of the main road. Trout in the lake and the area was crawling with deer when we were there. Sunsets were incredible.
Good times gone by.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted June 16, 2015 11:21 AM
Koko, been there many times. Bowhunted the La Sals for more than 20 years. Spent most of my time on the other, less crowded side, but have fished Oowah and Warner many times. Gave up on it a few years back though. Logging has taken out all my old quakie patches, ATV'ers swarm everywhere, including ATV'ers with bows and arrows.
Just got to where it has changed so much, for the worse, I quit going there. Went to hell in a handbasket, as they say. A real shame...
Not to say it isn't still pretty and a fella couldn't still let the air out of a buck, but it sure ain't like it used to be.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted June 16, 2015 12:32 PM
Dave, I have absolutely ZERO info to give/add about a can, but...
Considering a guy's gotta dream, if I'm ever in an AO that is 'can friendly', I've pretty much made my mind up that I'd build a "shorty" rifle to screw it onto. And you know that firebreathin' hotrods & short barrels do not an amicable couple make. Therefore, my conclusion would be to 'match the hatch' and run a case that thrives on a short barrel.
That said, for a coyote killer, I'd go with what I know and build an 18-20" barreled 6x45 (or Improved version).
You now better than anyone, going up in bore size from a parent case increases the efficiency when pushing same weight bullets. So, ya can get away with less barrel for the same net velocity. And that .243 caliber bullet hits a coyote harder than a .223 does, I'm sure of that. Only trade off for going up in bore size would be marginally less b.c. for same weight bullet...
Heck, I just had built a 6x45AI on a Seven with a 22" #4 Krieger, for a goof around varmint/fun gun. Went ahead and had the barrel threaded 1/2x28", just in case ![[Wink]](wink.gif) That'd be a neat little round to run suppressed, dontcha think?
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