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Author
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Topic: What is the process to have a bolt gun built?
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 19, 2014 01:06 PM
A P.S...
I don't think bushing the pin will help with the poofs, but, I consider it SOP for any hot rod on the .223 case, as Tom mentioned.
All mine are...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
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posted October 19, 2014 01:36 PM
I totally missed the "poofs" just saw the pierced primer with sane pressures.
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Aaron Rhoades
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4234
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posted October 19, 2014 02:14 PM
.17-.204, 9 twist chromoly Douglas, 30gr Blackhole bullets. Until this last session they were all hitting the target at least with really good accuracy, lots of groups .5 or under with the best being .262. Things went from bad to mediocre to good to bad to very bad at the last session. Just was always getting weird pressure signs from the same powder charge, same load from shot to shot. I know all guns aren't the same even if the same reamer is used but in this case, the other gun in this thread is basically identical and he has no problems whatsoever. You would have to ask him to be sure but I believe he has gone 4200+ and his aren't coming apart. Dry clean barrel the patches go in nice with a little resistance in the throat. After it has been shot a few times and I try running a wet patch of Butch's down, it is so tight as to almost force it down the throat then gets easier each time until the next time it has been fired a few times.
[ October 19, 2014, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Rhoades ]
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted October 19, 2014 02:22 PM
Hardly seems possible on such a new barrel, but your last two sentences sound an awful lot like a carbon ring.
How many rounds on the barrel now?
I'm throwing darts, don't really know what's happening, but I'd clean the bejeezus out of the throat area. Work it with some JB or Remclean until you can't feel that initial restriction anymore. A little catchy/grabby is normal after it starts to fire crack, but on a new barrel, that transition into the throat should feel pretty smooth on a tight patch.
Like I said, I don't know, just guessing. But right now, I'm guessing there is something not so great going on in that throat.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted October 19, 2014 02:29 PM
I know not exact and I should be taking notes but I haven't been for the reason that everything I tried, nothing was consistent, except that nothing worked. So with that said, 100 rounds max, I'm thinking 80 plus or minus 10. From the beginning shot till now, I have 3 pierced primers and 3 blown primers, probably 10 with excessive pressure(hard bolt lift-ejector marks) and 15-20 with milder pressure signs.
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted October 19, 2014 02:33 PM
Just eliminating things but in my mind it has to be something forward of the primer. They all chamber fine, haven't had one yet that had resistance on chambering. With the pressure and now the bullets coming apart, there has to be n obstruction in the barrel somewhere, am I right? Thanks for the help Dave, I'll get to work on that.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted October 19, 2014 02:45 PM
Obstruction is not how I'd describe it. An obstruction would make for a blown up rifle.
But it does sound like there is something in the barrel that is messing with the bullet jackets bad enough that some of them are blowing up in the air.
I'm purely guessing that it is only peripherally related to the blanked primers.
It could be something removable, or fixable. But it could also just be a duff barrel. Pretty rare with customs, but it does happen and something like the .17-204 won't tolerate anything less than an excellent barrel and chambering job.
After you've cleaned the holy hell out of it and go shoot it again, I'd be curious as to how many rounds before you clean and how much copper you get out of it.
For comparison sake, the Lilja on my .17 Predator, I usually only clean it once or twice a season. After 40 - 50 rounds at ~4100 fps I only get a hint of blue after letting it soak 24 hours with Wipeout. It basically collects no copper at all. Same for my other Lilja .17 barrels and it's one of the big reasons I always recommend them to new .17 guys just having their first one built.
I have one ChroMo Douglas, it's a .22BR that I used to use for prairie dogs when I used to shoot them. Accurate as all hell, but it has copper fouled moderately bad since the day it was born. After 100 rounds or so, it has a LOT of copper in it. I started shooting Danzac coated pills in it to help, and that does help, but it sill gets quite a bit of copper built up over 100 rounds.
I have another .22BR with a Lilja, that can go 200 rounds and not have nearly as much fouling - it cleans up quick and easy.
I honestly doubt that fouling is your issue. But, it's worth paying attention to and eliminating it at least. You honestly should not get enough blue out of that barrel to be worth mentioning after say 15 shots.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Aaron Rhoades
Knows what it's all about
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posted October 19, 2014 07:47 PM
I had an idea, painted up the bullets on six rounds and ran them through the gun. I think you are right Dave, massive carbon ring. In an earlier post I said there was no resistance, must have been, I just couldn't feel it. Anyone see anything else?
[ October 19, 2014, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Rhoades ]
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Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
Member # 4107
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posted October 19, 2014 09:15 PM
Aaron it sounds like you have a Carbon Fouling problem causing the "poofs" or have a bad crown. And after looking at your pics, it looks to me like you are bumping the case shoulders and maybe causing a headspace problem which can and will spike pressures and blow primers. If you have some virgin 204 brass try sizing a lubed case with some powdered graphite on the inside of the case neck. Back your sizing die out enough to barely start the necking down process, raise the arm on your press and screw the die in a quarter turn increment, then try loading the brass in your rifle, the bolt shouldn't close yet, but check it anyways. Neck down in quarter turn die increments and check your progress until your bolt will only close part way. Then progress slowly, in say 1/8" turn of the die, sizing and checking until the bolt will only close with a small amount of force from you then stop. You have now set your minimum headspace.
Be extra careful about bumping the shoulders of your brass, it's not needed.
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mike
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 20, 2014 04:40 AM
Looks like you could be getting somewhere! Be nice if a good dooshing is all it needs. Once that carbon gets ironed in it can be a massive bitch to get it out though. If you don't have any JB, get some and worth the bejeezus out of the throat area with it. I like to use an over size patch wrapped around a worn bore brush for JB'ing.
I think you might be able to get it with lots of Wipeout soak time, but I'm talking like a week of it and even then some of the really fire hardened stuff will probably still be there.
If you aren't using it already, Lock Ease might help in the future.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted October 20, 2014 06:10 AM
Mike, you are right, I am setting the shoulders back at each loading. A fired case from this gun measures 1.555 using a comparator so I set them back to 1.553. Now, what I understand about headspace is that you want some room to move but not too much so as not to wear the brass out or worse, causing separation. I also understood that it doesn't need to be set each time but I figured setting the shoulders back .002 each time was working it minimally so shouldn't be a big deal. Can you expound on headspace problems causing pressure?
Posts: 155 | From: Washington | Registered: Oct 2012
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted October 20, 2014 06:13 AM
Lock ease? Is it normal for a carbon ring to form this fast? Is there a way to slow it down? I have cleaned this gun more than any other gun in my life and never had a problem with any other gun.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 20, 2014 08:35 AM
Well, been out of town, still am, actually but there is so much going on here, I hardly know where to start?
The idea that you have 80 rounds through the barrel and have a significant carbon ring already developed just seems so bizarre that I can't relate it to anything I have ever heard of, personally or just casual reading?
Then, what the hell causes missing the paper, based on any imagined mechanical defects? Okay, maybe a grossly mismanufactured rifling? I missed the part, origination of the barrel, specifics etc. and hardly ever consider Douglas barrels in my guns but they are a reputable firm, so I understand?
I was glad to see somebody mention a nick on the crown, that can cause a problem but NOT blown primers! In other words, this seems a total clusterfuck. Don't know what is meant by changing a mount, or whatever the reason, but doing too many things at once leaves me in the dark on every level?
Being old school, I would never start off with a load: "very first shot out of the rifle produced a pierced primer with 25gr TAC." No matter what the program says, I start out way under and in the course of fifteen minutes at the range, you should be able to arrive at a theoretical max load; but it's worth the caution involved.
Having said all that, you know what? I just don't have a clue? I wouldn't be opposed to sending it back to whoever built it and at least get their seal of approval as to their absolution of responsibility. Then, (at least) you can start questioning your procedures, such as bumping the shoulder..... Not that it is responsible for the shit that is going on, but all of that stuff, working the brass is kinda counter productive, in my opinion. Then again, that first shot set the stage; this was going to be a head scratcher.
So, do we accept the theory that missing the paper is due to blown bullets or are we sure the bedding is sound and the mounts tight, etc? I know, this is basic stuff but you have to know for damned sure that the mechanical aspects are solid, including the scope internals.
If you have a barrel that builds a carbon ring in + or - 80 rounds you are chasing your tail. That's not acceptable, and I would be maneuvering toward a refund, just as it is, let Douglas see it and explain it, maybe?
Keep your spirits up. It looks like, rather than the end of a process, it's just the beginning? BTW, those bullets look pretty nasty!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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KaBloomR
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posted October 20, 2014 10:28 AM
Are all the bullets from the same batch? Have you mic'd them?
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"It always gets a helluva lot worse before it gets any better"
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
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posted October 20, 2014 11:05 AM
I am with Lb....send her back. Every custom build I have ever had shot well right from the start if it was going to at all. You'll burn a lot of powder and primers and waste a lot of bullets to find in the end....it just doesnt shoot. At least thats been my experience.
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Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
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posted October 20, 2014 11:28 AM
Oil in the barrel will cause carbon. If your barrel wasn't clean, dry and free of any or all oil('s) you will get carbon fouling. I use Flitz polish as a mild abrasive to remove carbon fouling, on a quality one piece coated rod and a good jag with a pile of tight patches. Some say there are better products than Flitz, regardless, you have a tough job ahead of you. Maybe, hopefully, someone has a better carbon remover to recommend? But Flitz will work.
Aaron as to overworking your brass, google 'Datum line rifle brass'. There are several posts that explain the importance of understanding how to size a case without overworking the brass and causing a dangerous headspace issue with pictures/images to help you understand. Keep us appraised of your progress. Lots of good people that will help you here, if you will let them. My email is posted on my profile, email me with your phone number if you need any help.
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mike
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
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posted October 20, 2014 04:29 PM
What Cross said... Send it back to the smith.
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Duckdog
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posted October 20, 2014 07:05 PM
I'd be sending it back in too, but one thing that jumps out at me is...doesn't it look like those bullets are really jammed into the lands?
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted October 20, 2014 08:46 PM
Duck, those bullets are set .010 off the lands measured with a hornady comparator.
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted October 20, 2014 08:48 PM
Mike, is setting the shoulders back .002 working them too much?
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted October 20, 2014 08:49 PM
Kabloomr, haven't micd them but I will, bullets came all together, same bullets 92soggy is shooting with no problems.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted October 21, 2014 03:32 AM
.002 is okay, it's more than you need, but not dangerous. It would be worth the time to go through the procedure Mike described and you'll end up with less than .002. I personally only FL size or shoulder bump when needed and for my .17 Predator it has never been needed. I've only ever just neck sized cases for it.
Lock Ease is a colloidal graphite product. You'll find it at most hardware stores, normal use is keeping locks smooth and from freezing up. It's useful in reducing fouling in rifle barrels too.
Start with a squeaky clean barrel, run a couple patches of Lock Ease through, let the alcohol carrier dry. Fire one shot. Clean it squeaky clean again. That's it. Then after normal cleaning, one patch with a few drops of it as the last step.
I can't say that's "why" my .17 barrels don't copper foul at all, but I do use a similar product and those barrels simply do not copper foul. It's spooky almost, how little copper sticks to those bores.
I'd have a good talk with the 'smith before sending anything back. Pretty much all of them will agree to have a look at it. But most of them won't be willing to eat a barrel or refund anything for their own work unless it turns out to have been the issue and even then a lot of them will lie to you about that.
Most, not all, but most of the cases I'm personally familiar with of sending a custom job back have ended up with months of delay and back and forth bullshit only to end up right back where you started.
Except for bad barrels. No idea how Douglas is that way. I've heard of most of the others replacing them when a 'smith says it's bad though. Then if the 'smith provided the barrel, he might do the second chambering job free too.
Just depends. The guy I use would make it right, but it would take awhile!
80 rounds is pretty darn soon for a carbon ring though. Especially given how much you have cleaned it.
Too late now, and only my opinion which many will disagree with, but, just me talking, I'd never do a hot rod .17 in a ChroMo barrel...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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TOM64
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posted October 21, 2014 04:15 AM
FWIW, I have 2 Douglas barrels, Cuzz has a few more and another buddy has 1, none of them foul badly and they all shoot ok. The smith we use uses a lot of them and speaks highly of them.
We've had PacNor, Shilen, Noveske and Krieger in the mix to compare to. For the price and turn around time, I'm happy with Douglas.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 21, 2014 06:39 AM
I tend to agree with Dave on most points. First, while Douglas has been around a long time, and Chrome Molly even longer, I think a top of the line stainless barrel is money well spent. And, if he's lucky on copper fouling, I bet it is not accidental?
I only have experience with Hart and Shilen, but people speak crazy devotion to Lilja. When I asked my 'smith, he was non committal and said they were soft; whatever that is supposed to mean?
But, this gets to my question about the rifling in this particular barrel. What is it? My guess is it's not cut rifling? How many grooves and what type? Not that I'm up on which setup is recommended in a 17.
Now, I am one that suggested sending it back, because these issues always start and end with disappointment. Nobody is willing to guarantee their work when a shooter can do so much to fuck things up for themselves, but the manufacturer does bear some responsibility and has the equipment that will detect a flaw.
The whole firearms industry worries about their legal obligations, witness the way Dillon and RCBS, (for example) send parts without hesitation. I don't see why Douglas can afford to remain aloof in the legal climate, but the gunsmith has a whole different set of priorities and time constraints and not as much fat in the bottom line. Plus, they would be super confident, which doesn't help.
I'm still stumped? Nothing to suggest. It started off bad and I am pessimistic. There will not be a simple solution. WAG; was anything discussed about the neck specifications? If you should be turning the neck and using bushing dies, and nobody mentioned it....
Good luck, El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted October 21, 2014 07:07 AM
A very smart bird told me to use a Lilja on my .17 hotrod. I listened.
Only issue I had was, after waiting almost two years on the build, that that 1:9tw barrel Lilja sent to 'smith was ACTUALLY a 1:10tw!!!
Found that out the hard way, scratchin' my head during several range trips, as to why this full custom rifle wouldn't shoot 30Golds worth a shit...
Dave helped me along & actually sent some 25gr bullets for me to try, they shot lights out. After that, a quick confirm spinning a jag in the cleaning rod, I measured the twist @ 1:10"
Long story, long, sent rifle back to 'smith. He contacted Lilja, they took their sweet azz time correcting THEIR error. 'Smith, being the professional he is, had to basically re-rebuild my rifle, out of his own pocket. I hated that for him! That rifle is a badaZZ shootin' mama-jama right now, but it sure took a while to get er dun!
Despite the chitty deal with my crossed up Lilja, I'd still use echo that smart bird and stick with a Lilja for a .172caliber tube.
Hope ya can get squared away quick, Aaron. Might just be your time to take some lumps in the custom build barrel? Shit happens...
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