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Author
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Topic: Vocal's
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted January 10, 2015 07:04 PM
I think I snorted some coffee on the diagraham comment.. 😱
Yeah, AZ has some coyotes..a shit load actually.. My area is great and that's one reason I fell into this sport..
However, we have areas that I call the dead "coyote" zones.. These are areas that everybody with a AR and fox pro probably hit on a weekly basis and am convinced the area is almost uncallable for old dogs..
I think in Feb, I'll try one of these areas using vocals only, NO prey.. use combinations to tell a story.. Let's see what happens..
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted January 10, 2015 07:56 PM
Man... I just suck at using vocals. I really do.
Went out today, firm in my resolve that I'm going to start using them and learn how. And it turned out like pretty much every other time I've ever tried using them.
Note... I don't use them very often. But, that's not to say I haven't tried them quite a bit over the years. They just never work for me, so I go back to what I know, that does work for me.
Anyway... Today was totally, 100% typical of what my experience with trying to use vocals over the years has been. I just suck at them!
The coyotes were really vocal themselves today. On three or four stands, they were howling from multiple directions before I even started calling. Heard them howling on just about every stand.
Used vocals all day, got howled back at constantly all day, didn't see a stinking coyote.
Finally, only enough daylight left for two more stands, I say to hell with it, use my same-old, same-old, tired as hell jackrabbit that I ALWAYS use. And call one in.
Next stand, last one of the day, bolstered by success with jackrabbit on the stand before, I use jackrabbit again and call in a pair.
And that, my friends, is just totally, absolutely, to the TEE typical of what my experience with using vocals has been over the years.
I'm not giving up. I'm actually pissed and embarrassed now, I need to learn this shit.
But, damn...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 10, 2015 08:12 PM
Well Dave at least you redeemed yourself with some prey sounds and killed a couple.
I went out yesterday and had the exact same thing as you did. Coyotes howling on almost every stand but no takers and no dead coyotes. But I just stuck with Vocals all day. I'm a stubborn bastard I guess. Maybe I should have tried some rabbit distress I might have come back with a Ben Franklin.lol I did have one Coyote at first light that seemed to be coming in but it was so damn foggy I could only see about 100 yards out. But he was howling and barking and getting closer all the time. But never could see him. Oh well maybe next time.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted January 10, 2015 08:43 PM
In my modest experiences howling coyotes. Meaning- Howls only no distress.
I've never really had any luck when they were already howling or howled back.
Dunno' so many pieces to this puzzle ?
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 11, 2015 01:40 PM
There is some truth in the above statement. Put it this way, if you begin a stand with prey sounds they sometimes have your number and yip at you.
Lot's of reasons, downwind, they saw your approach, been called recently, bad moon phase, etc. In some cases, no amount of return howling will get them within range. They will play the game until you tire of it. Of course, in this case, you run a risk in using too much vocals.
A lot has been said in judicious use of coyote vocals, just don't over do it. If you don't have the patience for a measured response, you are better off sticking with continuous prey sounds. Oh, and silence is also good, and patience.
There are a lot of old hands that believe a coyote will always come in, they may take a couple hours, or more, to do it, but they will show up and leave tracks in the snow exactly where you were. Even after watching you pack up and leave, they will come in shortly.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted January 12, 2015 05:58 AM
Leonard, I wasn't wanting to compare deer to coyotes. Obviously they're completely different animals...
I was attempting to illustrate how whitetail bucks in certain areas seem to be more willing to respond in an aggressive manner to certain sounds, as compared to other areas. And that willingness seems to be directly related to the population dynamics of that area. Buck/doe ratio, age class, herd density, etc...
That said, wouldn't a coyote's willingness to respond aggressively to certain "vocals" be similarly affected?
Don't certain vocals key in on an aggressive response? Would those types of sounds be as effective on a dispersing YOY, as compared to a resident adult?
Don't certain "vocals" key in on a protective/maternal response? What if there are no bred pairs in that area? Or...what if the time of year is simply wrong? Are those types of sounds any more/less effective at one time of year over another???
Not sayin' I've got any answers, just lotsa questions that might provoke some thought...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 12, 2015 10:22 AM
Fred, a lot of what you are asking is unknowable. Sometimes, there is no logic. For instance: puppy whines. Everybody knows they are illogical certain times of the year, but they work. Barks are good, barks are bad, etc.
Just repeating; your questions really are so wide ranging that I wouldn't know where to start?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted January 12, 2015 10:37 AM
I have never called in a coyote in this situation; you start calling using prey distress and than a group starts howling.
In that scenario, I believe i have not called in a coyote.
Have u guys?
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted January 12, 2015 11:12 AM
Thanks Leonard, I realize that. Just kinda wanting to keep the wheels turning in guys' heads. Least that's what goes round in mine, anyway...
F&D, heck yeah. Not always, but often enough to expect success, over admit failure...
If I have coyotes "howl" at me here in NY, they done fucked up & gave away their position. Depending, I might re-position as close as possible, or just wait it out for one to show up. Have kilt several coyotes here after sitting on stand over an hour. And, the only reason I stayed that long, is because I knew there was a captive audience within earshot. Got nuthing better ta do, so I wait em out and they eventually swagger on it to investigate...
That tactic might make ZERO sense for someone calling out west with hundreds of thousands of acres of public land to stomp around on. But back here, with limited access, private land and fewer coyotes, if I hear one howl, imma do whatever I can to get one-a-them fuckers dead...
Just last month in Nebraska, I was calling & had a pair howl at us, <3min in. They were close enough to expect one to show, so we stayed put and I kept calling.
First one came loping in @ 6 minutes, unbeknownst to me. The upwind rifleman couldn't get a shot off @ 30yds. Coyote #1 left, but I hadn't even seen it, so continued calling as if nothing had showed yet...
Broke the stand @ 12 minutes, and I honestly couldn't friggin' believe that a coyote didn't come! Walked out to grab the caller, and look up in time to see Coyote #2, as it pops up over a sandhill @ 400yds. Mexican standoff, but no shots fired. Reconnoiter with guys on stand, and that was when I found out that Coyote #1 had already come & gone...
Just a quick recent example, but yeah. If coyotes howl during a stand, I feel pretty good about being able to suck one in. And if they howl further off, move closer and make it easier for them to wanna check you out...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 12, 2015 11:29 AM
I'm with FUR. If you start a stand and at some point they are howling at you, they are suspicious and not worth screwing with. Of course, that's not in some woodlot in NY. I can go a half mile down the road and be successful, and sometimes, it's the suspicious ones that come in. But, waiting on vocal coyotes is time better spent somewhere else, in my opinion. Always depends on where and how far away, though.
NONE OF THIS IS GRAVEN IN STONE, as the original KHD used to say.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted January 12, 2015 11:37 AM
Well, like I said before, so many pieces to the puzzle. Normally for me when coyotes start howling the games over, might as well pack up and go.
It's just never really paid off for me.
Yes, I've tried playing the game and exchanging howls barks, ect. Only to see them park their azz way out there and scold me, out of what I'm comfortable with in regards to my shooting range, about 250 yards.
I can think of one time off the top of my head, where I sat down, got ready and sure enough a coyote let's out a lone howl. I gave him one back and within seconds there he was.
Anyway, I've really never considered Fred's scenario of advancing my position towards them. In the right terrain that might work ?
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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booger
TOO BIG TO FAIL
Member # 3602
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posted January 12, 2015 11:41 AM
Here is my experience from just yesterday…we started out at a place where I thought we might call a cat, so I dispensed with coyote vocals. I turned on the caller to ‘Grown Cottontail’ as per the suggestion from Jimnaz, and had one respond within 1 minute.
Partner shoots and misses coyote number one…’Grown Cottontail ‘ continues to play and #’s 2 and 3 show up 5 minutes later. We shoot one of the pair.
1 hour later, we are in a large pasture bordering the river—not concerned about the chance of a bobcat, so I start with vocals. I start with about 15 seconds of pup howls and 15 seconds of an interrogation howl. I wait for a couple of minutes and switch to ‘Crying Jack’ sound.
Coyote #4 of the day shows up within 10 minutes of starting the caller and about 5 minutes or so after the prey sound started. Never cut our wind, but partner with the rifle misses a downhill shot at 60 yards.
I am not sure what sound actually got it coming our way…
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If we ever forget we are one Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under--Ronald Reagan
Posts: 911 | From: Bob Dole Country | Registered: Apr 2010
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted January 12, 2015 12:32 PM
quote:
I have never called in a coyote in this situation; you start calling using prey distress and than a group starts howling.
In that scenario, I believe i have not called in a coyote.
Have u guys?
Regularly. If it's just a group yip howl (GYH).
On most of the mornings stands I make I hear at least one group howling, whether in response to my jackrabbit or they were going to howl anyway, who knows. But I'd say I hear GYH's on, 75% of my morning stands? This time of year especially - it's been more like 95% the past month or so. Pretty typical to hear multiple groups on a morning stand too, not just one.
Don't considered it much of an indicator of success, one way or the other. It's just something I expect to hear in the morning, is all.
I'm not talking about yappers, mind you. That's a whole 'nuther ball of wax. Just group yip howls.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted January 12, 2015 12:49 PM
^^^prezactly^^^
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 12, 2015 01:55 PM
See, it doesn't take much to get hung up on terminology.
edit: if we sat ten hunters down and played ten vocals, I wonder if any of them would agree on what the sound was called?
Good hunting. El Bee
[ January 12, 2015, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 12, 2015 04:02 PM
I agree with DAA. Happens all the time.
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the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
Member # 3552
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posted January 12, 2015 04:34 PM
one thing about vocals (specially early season) is, i find that coyotes don't come in as fast. more slow/calculating. i'm a run and gunner and like em in fast.
Posts: 1049 | From: minnifornia | Registered: Jan 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 12, 2015 06:12 PM
I can agree with the above comment. Yes, they tend to approach slower under that scenario. Appreciate that contribution.
But, what the fuck are you doing in here?
I don't think you have the temperament for the Internet, too fragile.
Free advice, (get off my case or get the fuck out of Dodge), unless you just want to discuss hunting with the big boys. I don't give a shit, either way. LB
PS No, really, I'm just testing you, I hope you stay, you have been a good member.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
Member # 3552
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posted January 12, 2015 06:57 PM
you win
Posts: 1049 | From: minnifornia | Registered: Jan 2010
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted January 14, 2015 08:11 AM
the one thing that I think has helped me call in more vocal coyotes is to simply move in on them. If at all possible with terrain at my advantage, I will move closer all the while keeping out of sight and keeping, or even getting, the wind to my advantage. To do this, a guy needs to be able to be pretty accurate at estimating how far they are to start with. Seems to me, it's easier to call a coyote to me, the closer I am to it/them, weather or not I am using vocals or distress.
Once I move closer, I then use totally different sounds than I did before I moved. I'll usually start with vocals again, just different than I used before I moved. I even moved more than once when I moved the first time and started with vocals the 2nd time, if they vocally respond, I sometime feel I can move one more time to better my odds of not just calling them, but handling them if/when they come.
Just like any other time calling, moving closer doesn't work all the time, but it sure enough has up-ed my odds of calling in vocal coyotes. And I'm sure over the years I've been in the process of moving and bumped into coyotes that were also either coming or moving from their last known position. BUT a guy is going to loose a few, and for me, I feel my odds of moving on them is better than picking my nose before leaving to look for some other howling coyote.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted January 14, 2015 09:35 AM
You know, moving in on the howlers is something I used to do a lot, years ago, but just sort of got away from.
I'd mostly just use jackrabbit after moving, not usually vocals (but sometimes), it worked pretty good.
I think the biggest reason I got out of the habit is just the poor shape my partner is in. He wouldn't join me, too much walking (and when I was moving on them, I went FAST). And at the end of the day, it wasn't at all clear we wouldn't have had just as many or more in the truck by using that time to move on to the next stand. Keeping in mind that on a good day, we're calling them in on about half our stands.
But, yeah, used to do that quite a bit and had a lot of success doing it. Just using prey distress. Will have to try it again with more emphasis on vocals.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted January 14, 2015 11:41 AM
And I agree with ya Dave, but on early season coyotes more so than later season coyotes. In other words, early season I feel like I got fresh ears to call to without beating the bush for the howlers. BUT as season gets later and fresh ears are harder to find, I feel like if I got some coyotes telling me where they are, I'm going to work on'em until they beat me, or until I beat them.
And there's just something about calling and killing coyotes that are vocal that puts a little spring back in my step.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 14, 2015 01:26 PM
Some pretty good nuggets right above, if you analyze what you are reading and do a little reading between the lines.
As to whether you move on them or not, if you are buck naked out there, of course it depends on if you wait a bit and if they are really way out there and can't see what you are doing.
For me, relocating has always worked best when they are at an intermediate distance, not to close to be monitoring your movements and no far enough that they have no interest, or are too lazy to come in regardless of what you do. This is not talking woodlots in New York, I'm talking where you can see the horizon in any direction and there aren't any structures. Sorta.
But, something I will offer for your consideration. When you do move, and it seems right, the stars are in alignment, etc., try very low sound. can't even hear it low sound. We have been told many times how well coyotes hear, but it takes specific experience to really understand. It's unbelievable how well they hear muted sound, from a long ways away. Just try really low sounds. I have done this, expecting results and still am caught off guard at how soon and how fast they charge the caller. All I can say is; be ready.
Good hunting. El Bee
And, if it don't work after five minutes, give 'em a little more...maybe they didn't hear it? <shrug>
edit: by really low "sounds" I could be referring to "baby pup whimpers" or "baby kitten". Maybe?
[ January 14, 2015, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted January 14, 2015 06:22 PM
OK, this may be awfully elementary to most of you, may be totally wrong to some of you, and may make zero sense to a few of you. Here's my theory on moving closer to noisy coyotes that won't come close enough to kill. Again, this is post New Year stuff, not September stuff.
You howl, he/she/they howl. You howl, he/she/they howl. Repeat, repeat. Maybe some movement from the opposition, but not enough for you to complete your mission. You have to start analyzing the situation, and just like always, nothing is cast in stone. Can you close the distance without giving yourself up? If you can't, and many times that's the case in my AO simply because if I move, I won't be able to see shit. If you can't feasibly move on them, stay where you are, and start trying to piss them off. I think late season answerers, but not comers, are saying "Yep, I hear you. I don't recognize you, and I live HERE M'effer. I don't want to fight, so move along and there won't be any trouble." Whatever the case, whether it's closing the distance, or simply ramping up the aggressiveness of your vocals, my mission is to piss them off so bad that they can't help themselves, and have to come see WTF is going on.
Yeah, it takes some time, but this time of year I can amuse the hell out of myself with a known audience as opposed to giving up and moving on to who knows what. YMMV.
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 14, 2015 06:54 PM
Something along those lines I've tried before when i'm hunting with a partner and there's a Coyote yapping out there out of rifle range is to have my calling partner keep messing with the Vocal coyote and I slip back over the hill and start walking toward the coyote on say the other side of a ridge or hill and get as close as possible and hopefully spot him and then snipe his ass. Doesn't work all the time but i have shot a few like that over the years.
That little trick was one that Bill Austin used. I read in an article he wrote back in the 80's. Been using it here and there since.
Good Hunting Chad
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