|
Author
|
Topic: Vocal's
|
Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
|
posted January 09, 2015 08:32 AM
You guys seem so humble about vocals..
I bet a lot of you have 10,20,30, etc years at this .. How many years does it take to become an expert??
I bet you guys (experts) have COMPLETELY figured it out in your local areas...
--------------------
--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chris S
"SPECIAL ACCOUNT" HM's Facebook page moderator & runs with scissors
Member # 3888
|
posted January 09, 2015 09:30 AM
Hmmm. In the ten years that I've been a memeber here, I've never seen anyone claim expert status on anything coyote. All I see are caveats to this and that, as it should be.
Posts: 534 | From: Oakland County, MI USA Earth | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
|
posted January 09, 2015 09:43 AM
Well, being humble is a great attribute.. However , someone needs to be an expert , and seems a lot u guys are..
In industry, experts don't necessarily need to know all the answers, just where to find them..
[ January 09, 2015, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
--------------------
--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
|
posted January 09, 2015 09:58 AM
"You guys seem so humble about vocals..
I bet a lot of you have 10,20,30, etc years at this .. How many years does it take to become an expert??"
With the internet it now only takes about 3 minutes.
--------------------
I snatch kisses. And vice versa.
Posts: 593 | From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
|
posted January 09, 2015 10:13 AM
I really am humble because what I know about howling can be packaged in a thimble.
In eastern Oregon I've tried distress with no results and out of curiosity upon leaving the stand I've played the Coyote Locator sound to see if I could get a response and one day I did at every location so I started using Pup Distress exclusively and called in 6 coyotes for the remainder of the day.
But, IMO, knowing how to push a button on the caller isn't exactly the same as being an expert. I tried it and it worked with no full understanding on my part.
I generally make 15 minute stands but will sometimes stay a bit longer. Many years ago I heard some guys talking about 10 minute stands so we tried that. One morning we walked into the Joshuas, made our 10 minute stand then walked back to the truck, got in and sat down only to see 2 coyotes cross the road on a dead run to the spot where we were calling. I've also stood up to catch a coyote or two coming and turning tail in afterburner after seeing me. Lessons learned.
--------------------
I snatch kisses. And vice versa.
Posts: 593 | From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
|
posted January 09, 2015 10:29 AM
Everything I think I might know about calling coyotes, might fill a thimble. And that is this, hunt where the callable coyotes are, don't get busted getting in to your stand, pay attention to the wind, try not to fuck it up when they come in. That's the full extent of my knowledge of calling coyotes.
What I know about vocals, you could put in a gnats ass and it would bounce around like a BB in a boxcar! There isn't any way to convey such a small amount, in type, on the internet.
Years ago, I thought I knew some stuff about calling, but eventually I figured out that actually I don't.
- DAA
--------------------
"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 09, 2015 11:57 AM
What I'm thinking about here, Moe, is those times when dragging a coyote back to the truck. And, to be flashed by the light man that he has a coyote coming in, and get my ass back to the truck in time to shoot it.
One time, because of haste, we had a triple by three different shooters, at night. Now, this is pretty hard to do, on purpose. But, it involved extended searching for a cripple, long time on stand and just a general clusterfuck. We usually play sound while picking up animals and of course, never ever leave a stand, after starting the truck, without one final sweep. And, by golly, once in a while, we snag a late comer.
This is no justification for prolonging every night stand to 45 minutes. Fact is, as soon as you start calling there could be an animal within a quarter mile and he could be within shootable range in a minute or so. But, since the sound gets out there at least a mile, one has to consider how quickly a coyote can travel one mile. Could be two minutes, could be ten minutes, depending on the terrain and the circuitous route, perhaps to get downwind.
Now, we have to consider a coyote is not a potted plant, or similar to chess pieces. In fact, a coyote could be well out of range of our sound...when we first begin a stand. But, while making his "rounds" and hunting, or just going for a drink of water, ten minutes later, he enters our sound projection and begins the circuitous route mentioned above.
What this says to me is that a coyote could show eyes from immediately when you begin the call, to at least 30-40 minutes into the stand. Ever stop during a cold night to pour a cup of coffee from the thermos? As stated above, never leave a stand without taking one last sweep. Occasionally, you will snag a late arrival but this is no justification for turning every stand into a 45 minute exercise.
Pick a reasonable time limit and stick to it, or violate it as it suits you, playing a hunch. Most generally, I think 10-12 minutes is adequate, at night. Daylights, it depends on the weather and the time of day.
Good hunting. el Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
tawnoper
Knows what it's all about
Member # 497
|
posted January 09, 2015 02:16 PM
I always find it amusing when people try to give "answers" to unanswerable questions, like calling coyotes. Kind of like calling yourself an expert estimator. Obviously a guy that's been doing it awhile will know more than a newer guy when it comes to stand selection etc. but the biggest thing an experienced caller has over a newbie is a much larger stand selection in his mental rolodex. Usually he's sitting in spots that were good to him previously. He's not wandering around looking for a stand.
I agree with what LB said. I think most of those late arrivals (after 15 min) were not in ear shot until maybe 10 minutes into the stand. I've had coyotes come ripping in to a stand without caution as I'm about to leave. Hard to believe it was running like that for 15 minutes. I've never been able to stay too interested on a stand much longer after 10 minutes. After about 8 minutes I'm already thinking of the next stand. Sure, if I sat at a stand all day long there is a chance something will show...but I may be asleep. I prefer to keep moving.
At night, especially in open terrain where you can see eyes way off, if I don't see eyes in 10 minutes we head on out. In real canyon, hilly terrain where visibility is limited I'll stay longer. Sometimes a bobcat will be taking it's sweet time getting into eye shine.
We've done that a lot at night. Walk out to retrieve an animal and next thing you know the light guy is working in another while your still standing out there.
Edit to say: I know enough about vocals to make a bunch of racket on my howler. Doesn't work too often but it sounds good to me.
[ January 09, 2015, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: tawnoper ]
Posts: 53 | From: socal | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted January 09, 2015 03:08 PM
Carve this into stone;
FIND A COYOTE HAVING A WORSE DAY THAN YOU ARE ..... AND KILL IT.
Now, when do I get my Expert Badge ??
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
|
posted January 09, 2015 03:15 PM
So, we figured out how to go to MARS, but we haven't figured out what a coyote is saying? You guys must be pulling my third leg..
--------------------
--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 09, 2015 03:39 PM
Yeah, you wish!
Look, there is too much difference of opinion as to what howl is what and what coyote is making the howl. All you can do is interpret these sounds and understand them to the best of your ability. Then, if they seem to work, given your interpretation and your concept, who cares if what you think they are saying squares with what Chris says, (of all people)!
Feelings, whoa whoa feelings; as Charles Aznavour might say, is all that counts.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
|
posted January 09, 2015 05:49 PM
Daves confession; could just as well be my words from his mouth. I know absolutely nothing about vocals, and could count on one hand the number of times Ive tried them. Im actually a bit embarrassed about it, from a over all knowledge stand point concerning coyote hunting.
I would love to just shadow someone who is really savvy on vocals; no gun, no shooting, just ears and eyes to see how it all unfolds and what they do.
Leonard is spot on concerning my technique, if you can call it that. I know my country, always looking for good locations as I travel to my known ones. I like to think I have a good grasp on coyotes and how to hunt them, but at base, Im a simpleton....but a lucky one I guess.
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
|
posted January 09, 2015 05:58 PM
Ya know, I've been checking in on this thread all day while, I was @ work.
There's quite a bit of useful information here, if a guy just slows down, reads and re-reads. In other words soak it all up dudes !!
There are countless years of experience here. (Pre) Internet and (Pre) Fox-Pro..
I'm not bashing anything at all. Just sayin'
In other words, this is a hell of a lot more than pushing a button on a remote.
And, BTW..I don't know squat about women-coyotes and pretty much anything in life. I used to think so, only to realize how wrong, I am..
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted January 10, 2015 05:21 AM
Here's something else to ponder...
Change species for a sec, and consider the hunting/calling of whitetail deer. There are a few different subspecies of whitetail across the country, and there are various styles of calling them...
Consider how population density, age class, and sex ratio play a role in the success of a hunter who attempts to call in a buck with rattlin' horns and/or a grunt tube...
IMHO, the reason why calling deer is more successful in certain has ALOT to do with population dynamics in that area. Low buck/doe ratio, and the abundance of mature bucks in a given area should make for more "callable" bucks, for lack of a better term.
That's why ya see hunters on managed ranches in Texas & elsewhere have consistent results when calling deer. The population dynamics allow for a more competitive atmosphere between bucks, resulting in a higher propensity for one to respond to rattling/grunting in an aggressive manner. Whereas, in other areas with less conducive population dynamics, a response might be from curiosity more than anything...
That said, shouldn't coyote densities play a factor in how and why those coyotes would respond to vocals???
[ January 10, 2015, 05:26 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chris S
"SPECIAL ACCOUNT" HM's Facebook page moderator & runs with scissors
Member # 3888
|
posted January 10, 2015 07:16 AM
Knockemdown, funny you mentioned that. I was thinking the same thing this morning. It had to do with rattling and how well it works in Texas vs other areas of the country.
Densities certainly play a role in my opinion. Fewer coyotes equals less howling, and less response. Sounds fairly common sense.
[ January 10, 2015, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: Chris S ]
Posts: 534 | From: Oakland County, MI USA Earth | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
|
posted January 10, 2015 08:40 AM
I've been very busy lately and finally got around to reading this very long thread. There is a lot of great information in here concerning something I know very little about. I do use vocals but I use pup distress on an e caller and what I call puppy whines with a peewee critter call. I seldom howl.
One thing I do different that I haven't seen anybody mention is I like to put out a couple of soft mole squeaks when first starting a stand and wait just one minute before going loud. I do this just in case there is a nearby coyote. I've heard going loud immediately will sometimes scare off a close neighbor. I won't say going loud immediately will always scare a close one because it could have been already scared hearing us walking in and setting up. Who knows for sure but it makes sense to me.
As a PVCI member I can only use coyotes called in with hand calls for it to count. When my grandson got old enough to go with me, I switched to electronics and stopped turning in kills. I did this because he had trouble sitting still. Even after he got bigger I still used electronics but I felt something was lacking: adrenaline. I miss having those close encounter surprises when hand calling.
With that said, I haven't been calling for several years. Just got too busy with life. I intend to get out next season if not sooner. All of this discussion regarding howling makes me recall two of the few times I've used howls. On a successful stand I mixed howls with a rabbit distress and both sounds were made with the standard critter call. I harvested a male on that stand as I recall. A while later I went hunting with a club member and did the same thing on a stand that wasn't successful. My partner told me to never howl and do prey distress with the same call. I laughed to myself.
I believe what works in one area won't work in another if the coyotes are all hearing the same exact sound. This is one advantage of the hand call IMHO.
Sitting down and reading posts like this really make me want to get out and go hunting.
Thanks
--------------------
Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
Posts: 1924 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 10, 2015 08:57 AM
Nope on that one, Chris. Fewer coyotes indicates they need more vocal communication, not less. As far as I can see, Arizona, on the one hand has a dense population and yet, in my experience, not that much howling goes on, except perhaps on the Papago, prime time.
The impression I get is that Nevada coyotes are a bit more vocal. This can be exasperating at times because I would be guilty of pulling up stakes and moving twenty miles just to get out of the damned howling! Whatever.
As to what Fred wrote, I dunno? I just can't relate whitetails to coyotes?
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
|
posted January 10, 2015 08:59 AM
"Everything I think I might know about calling coyotes, might fill a thimble. And that is this, hunt where the callable coyotes are, don't get busted getting in to your stand, pay attention to the wind, try not to fuck it up when they come in. That's the full extent of my knowledge of calling coyotes."
Bingo! You're an expert.
I was watching Furtakers a while back and heard Al Morris say he uses a diaphragm. Wow....my wife would never let me take hers out of the house.
--------------------
I snatch kisses. And vice versa.
Posts: 593 | From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
|
posted January 10, 2015 09:05 AM
Diaphragms....gross.
--------------------
When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
|
posted January 10, 2015 10:13 AM
Yep Leonard gets it.
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chris S
"SPECIAL ACCOUNT" HM's Facebook page moderator & runs with scissors
Member # 3888
|
posted January 10, 2015 12:25 PM
Wrong kind of diaphragm, Moe. Al Morris was talking about the kind that goes in the upper mouth, not the south-mouth. (good joke on your part though. It gave me a chuckle.)
Posts: 534 | From: Oakland County, MI USA Earth | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chris S
"SPECIAL ACCOUNT" HM's Facebook page moderator & runs with scissors
Member # 3888
|
posted January 10, 2015 03:50 PM
As far as densities and vocalizations go... When are the most coyotes most vocal in the most areas? Summer? What are densities like at that time compared to fall and winter?
Using logic, I believe that the densities are much higher in the summer because the pups haven't dispersed and they haven't been shot to death.
Once the coyotes disperse and some become transients and don't vocalize as much it becomes harder to tell what densities are like but I'm sure they're not as high as in the summer.
[ January 10, 2015, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Chris S ]
Posts: 534 | From: Oakland County, MI USA Earth | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
|
posted January 10, 2015 04:36 PM
I think what Leonard meant and what I was agreeing with was in regards to "Areas" with high densities of Coyotes, not when Coyotes are at there highest densities in a area that doesn't have alot of Coyotes. If that makes sense.
Good Hunting Chad
[ January 10, 2015, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 10, 2015 05:05 PM
Thanks, Chad. I read what he wrote but it made my head hurt so I decided to not reply to all that "speculation". Besides, I asked him very politely to shut the fuck up, but he decided to share those pearls of wisdom anyway.
Who knows, we still might get a letter of regret and resignation out of him yet. Did I mention that I really didn't like his opinion about Clever Gary? If I didn't, I'm mentioning it now. I don't want another friggin' word about Gary and his efforts to end "poaching". Time to take charge here; kick ass and take names. They got me rilled up, finally.
Good hunting. ElBee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
|
posted January 10, 2015 05:57 PM
You know, on a javelina hunt down south, I had coyotes keep me awake all night with their hijinx. I might not be worldly enough to understand what you 2 guys are driving at, but within my limited experience, coyotes are either willing to howl, or not. I haven't figured out all the specifics, and would welcome any help.
I have a friend who comes here a time or two a year, and he always remarks how much more vocal AZ coyotes are than west of the river, (both pretty heavily populated?).
Educate me.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
