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Author
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Topic: Vocal's
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted January 06, 2015 12:47 PM
Unless they are coming really good on prey distress, I will use coyote vocals on every stand. If I howl at the start of the stand, I will stay for 12-15 minutes. If the howl is in the middle, that time begins then.
I howl either to call one in or to locate. If I determine them to be too far away to come, I will go to them. After closing the distance, I do not expect a howl back. If it is late in the afternoon and I hear a group howl over a mile away, I am leaving immediately. It seems to me at this time they are up and moving somewhere and I need to get there as soon as possible. Like Leonard, if they are real talkative, I will mimic what they are giving me. When they shut-up, get ready. Just like when that gobbler shuts-up.
I try to eliminate most of the variables while calling and never shoot the same hole in the sky twice. Almost always calling cold, so I am trying to figure out what is working in that particualar area. Maybe prey distress only, or howls only, or a combination. Until I feel I am getting a negative response, I keep experimenting. Meaning if there is sign and I figure my approach was good,then there are coyotes hearing it and not coming. Time to elimate that variable.
As an example. Once Geordie and I were calling in AZ and using prey distress on every stand with limited success. Then we started mixing in pup distress and having coyotes come immediately after the pup distress. We ended up just using pup distress on every stand with a whole lot more coyotes coming in. Eliminated the rabbit all together and got right down to business. LOL
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted January 06, 2015 12:55 PM
I'm kinda like UTcaller, I don't want to share too much on the net and have it bite me later. That's already happened with "secret sound".
I was told about my favorite howls by Kelly Jackson, you all probably know what it is but being nonaggressive it has worked for me in the late summer to early spring. I usually let it play out then sit quiet for as close to 5 minutes then go for either a prey sound or secret sound. Nothing new or original but it works in my area most of the time.
But like last week, I got responses back and no shows. Changing location and to distress only brought the 2 groups in both times.
I can't say for sure what I'm telling them but as long as they come in, I don't care.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 06, 2015 01:08 PM
Leonard Email sent
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 06, 2015 01:10 PM
quote:
Not wanting to complicate the topic at hand, but I feel it is the fool who just picks a howl/vocalization at random & doesn't consider the response they're trying to illicit from the coyote...
Come on, Fred. That's a little strong. In fact, just where is a man to start? You have to jump in, and work from there. I sure as hell wouldn't decide to use a particular response just because "Dead Eye" over at PMS said that's the ticket.
Everything I know, and I assure you, it's not much, I learned all by my self. Even then, I would not presume to power up the laptop to advise the Peanut Gallery how much I know.
So, people may think they have the answers, and bravely explain to the folks what they "know". But, all those assurances will be assepted as graven in stone by some and sumarily disputed by others that have actually had a conversation with a coyote.
In short, this is a subject where it's hard to find experts. Hard to have agreement, much less consensus. And, the exact same response works like magic in Kalamazoo, but never seems to work in Amarillo.
So, who's the fool?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 06, 2015 01:22 PM
Fur-n-dirt,
I just use lone howls and other vocalizations all day long very few prey sounds anymore. Here's one full day of calling using vocalizations
[ January 06, 2015, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 06, 2015 01:22 PM
Concerning what AR wrote above. Sure, pup distress may be the cat's ass, but If I have to use it on every stand, it's going to stop being such a powerful tool. Instead, I hold that one for specific reasons and situations. I think it's too valuable to be reduced to a standard sound used on every stand. Pretty soon, it will, (maybe) get to be the new "Lightning Jack", every coyote in the county has heard it. I might be full of shit because it hasn't happened? But, I'm a little cautious.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted January 06, 2015 01:32 PM
NO you aint full of shit LB. A few years back my partner and I placed 2nd in a contest. The top team had one more coyote than we did.
He told me at check in, we read where you like Pup distress. that's the only sound we played today....so yes its the new Lightning Jack....
Coyote Vocals - the next to last frontier.
Stay after them
Kelly
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted January 06, 2015 01:38 PM
Very nice day UT!
[ January 06, 2015, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 06, 2015 01:55 PM
Yeah time of day hasn't been that critical to success with the vocalizations, at least no more so than prey sounds have been for me in the past. Better in the morning and evening but still some success throughout the day. I actually have been using voice howls more recently as my confidence builds as i keep practicing at it. Have seen pretty good consistency with it. It is encouraging.
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted January 06, 2015 02:02 PM
Voice howling is underrated. Works as good as anything sometimes. Same thing with the Santa Fe, it comes thru town horn a blazing, and every coyote in the country lights up.
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted January 06, 2015 03:05 PM
Saving a certain sound to only use at certain times in order to deter someone else from using the same one. Is that what it has come to?
If I am working through some ground and one sound is really working, you better believe I am going to use that one on every stand and consider each stand to be a "special occasion".
Saving these sounds is like me saving my 3/4 ton pickup to use on special occasions. Just doing my part to combat global warming.
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted January 06, 2015 04:31 PM
Wiley got me started on voice howling a few years ago. I sound pretty bad to my ears. I mean, not unnatural, I think I sound like a coyote, but, a 200 pound coyote, that drinks whiskey and smokes cigars... Scott sounded MUCH better, to me.
That said, I get coyotes to howl back at me most of the time with it, early morning or evening. Have amazed my friends and family around the campfire on camping trips with that one many times ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) .
But have ZERO confidence to actually use it on a stand, so have not.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 06, 2015 04:37 PM
Knockemdown,
I realize the longer I use Coyote Vocalizations(almost 30 years)and see Coyotes react to them how little I do know about there language. I think it is alot more complicated than we realize. Sure I know a aggressive howl or bark from a non threatening howl or bark. I know a group howl from a lone howl. But its when you start saying that's a hunting yip howl, or friendly group yip howl. Or my favorite an estrus chirp. I don't buy into the fact that you know that or better yet that you can howl in such a way that you can communicate those specific sounds to them. I guess that's what i was saying when i said " communicating" with them. Imho
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 06, 2015 04:46 PM
Dave, i hear what you're saying. Scott's the one that made me start realizing that I needed to start using or learning to use it in my hunting application. One of my biggest regrets was not being able to get out to Nevada with you, Leonard, and Scott a few years back.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 06, 2015 05:32 PM
That's ok Chad. I'm going to sell your secret method for ten bucks. Thinking about it, anyway? I need to find some way to pay the bills here. I figure, one teaser post on PMS would do it.
Good hunting. El Bee ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
edit: coyote voice howls are one thing. Actually, I tried a couple on stand, with Scott, a couple years ago. When I asked him how it sounded, afterwards; I knew right away it wouldn't be good when he started by saying: "I'm glad you asked." He thought I would be better off not trying it. And, that was okay because it made me extremely horse.
Now, on the other hand, a wolf howl is very easy to duplicate, I was doing that like a friggin' expert, in Canada.
[ January 06, 2015, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 06, 2015 05:36 PM
quote:
Saving a certain sound to only use at certain times in order to deter someone else from using the same one. Is that what it has come to? AR Shaw
That's what they said about "Lightning Jack" Amigo.
Nah, you go ahead, just don't tell anybody.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS I thought I would be getting an invite by now?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted January 06, 2015 05:52 PM
Dave brought up length of time on stand, using vocal's. Chad indicates 15 minute stands are ok ?
I trust Chad, not tryin' to nail ya down there buddy.
I sure as heck don't have all the answers or anything. That's for sure. I will tell ya though in my experiences howling up coyotes (disclaimer) I have not called the numbers some of you guys have.
That all being said. I'd say most showed up just like prey distress, in under five minutes. After ten minutes, I'm yawning.
Just relaying what I know. Maybe a guy should stay longer ? It just seems to me it's time to pick up and move along ?
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 06, 2015 05:52 PM
Hey do I at least get a small royalties check.lol Who knows it might be a big splash like the estrus chirp sound. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 06, 2015 06:01 PM
I'll split it right down the middle $7.50-$2.50.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 06, 2015 06:05 PM
Dave,
That's how I am.
After 15 minutes I'm ready to move. For me that's just the standard time I stay.
I have stayed longer especially when I know a Coyote is working his way in and taking his time. But as a general rule 15 minute stands are the norm. And sure I've called them in the first minute of a stand too.
I guess I have seem good success in that 15 minute mark so why change.
Am I missing out on a few Coyotes by not staying longer? Maybe. But it doesn't seem to be to noticeable in the numbers I kill. So why change. If I started to see a big decrease maybe I would change it up a bit.
Done deal Leonard. Now lets go make a million bucks.
Good Hunting Chad
[ January 06, 2015, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted January 06, 2015 07:06 PM
I dont have much "stand stamina" myself, like Dave, Im daydreaming by the 15 minute mark.
Yeah, you could stay longer, you could stay a week there and Im sure something will show up? I dont much care these days. Unless Im hearing or seeing something to work with, Im outta there to look at some new ground. It may be only 1/2 mile away, but it's all new.
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 06, 2015 07:44 PM
Back in the day, hunting at night in Nevada, new moon, we used to cut our stands at seven minutes. Other places, CA, AZ, NM, NV, daylights, my standard is usually twelve minutes. This can very easily be changed to fifteen minutes if I really like the set up. I can stretch it to 30, if given a reason. I'm flexible, these days.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Aaron Rhoades
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4234
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posted January 06, 2015 07:58 PM
Wow, you guys don't stay long! 25-30 minutes or more is what we stay. UTcaller, do you call year round or mainly during the winter? If its just during the winter, does your sequence work the whole winter?
Posts: 155 | From: Washington | Registered: Oct 2012
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 06, 2015 08:24 PM
I do call year around. And yes my stands change alot throughout the year. The Vocalizations change quite a bit from month to month too. Length of the stand doesn't though.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted January 07, 2015 08:22 AM
quote:
Knockemdown,
I realize the longer I use Coyote Vocalizations(almost 30 years)and see Coyotes react to them how little I do know about there language. I think it is alot more complicated than we realize. Sure I know a aggressive howl or bark from a non threatening howl or bark. I know a group howl from a lone howl. But its when you start saying that's a hunting yip howl, or friendly group yip howl. Or my favorite an estrus chirp. I don't buy into the fact that you know that or better yet that you can howl in such a way that you can communicate those specific sounds to them. I guess that's what i was saying when i said " communicating" with them. Imho
Good Hunting Chad
Thanks for clarifying, Chad.
I agree with the above, on all accounts. Being able to dissect specific howls to that degree is waaay above my pay grade. That's precisely why I kept to generalities, and not the specifics you mentioned above...
Been lucky enough to have hunted in several states, and VERY lucky to have shared stands with several top notch (in my opinion) callers. To a one, each trip has taught me valuable lessons about techniques & applications. And to a one, I haven't heard any "cookie cutter" style that always works.
IMHO, the most competent callers out there are the ones who have a real passion for the endeavor. The ones who experiment, adapt, and learn what the coyotes want to hear on that particular day, at that particular time, in that particular area. In that regard, there is a calculated reasoning behind using "X" sound at "Y" time in "Z" area.
You can read all over the interwebs about new guys wanting a "recipe" of sounds that work. They just want to kill A coyote, ANY coyote. There is no systematic approach to calling, no thought or understanding as to why a certain sound might work...
Reckon I was addressing that aspect of using vocals & calling in general. When I use a sound, vocals or prey distress, I have an idea in my head as to what button I'm trying to push in that coyote's little pea brain. If a caller lacks even that basic understanding of why, then I wish them all the best...
If I was stuck to using one blanket "recipe" of sounds all the time, I think one of the most special things about calling a coyote would be lost. The game we love to play, would cease to be a game, anymore.
IMHO, maintaining an analytic approach to calling, as Randy described above, is the most important aspect of being consistently successful. That, and having great ground to hunt don't hurt, of course!
Take care!
[ January 07, 2015, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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