|
Author
|
Topic: Vocal's
|
Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
|
posted January 05, 2015 12:45 PM
I'm not being a hater. The question begs, how many of these guys would be doing these activities if all they had was hand calls ?
I wonder about a lot of stuff lately.
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
|
posted January 05, 2015 01:23 PM
Hand calls have their place.. but not in shotgun stands (IMHO) Why have a dog ambush you when you can ambush them with an ecaller?
On rifle stands , hand calls are awesome .. Sounds like I'm about to get into terrible in here.. ;-(
--------------------
--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
|
posted January 05, 2015 01:35 PM
If hand calls were the only thing available, we would only have a quarter (if that) of the predator hunters we do today.
On that note, I heard a while back that California may look into banning E calls all together? Just like gray fox, I think a California club had something to do with that?( the no ecalls for gray fox thing)
Mark
[ January 05, 2015, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
--------------------
When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
booger
TOO BIG TO FAIL
Member # 3602
|
posted January 05, 2015 01:48 PM
I guess I will put myself out there and tell you the sequence I used a couple of weeks ago with my 'new' CS-24 I bought from Jim.
The morning I called the double was extra cold, and very windstill. I used female interrogation howls for about 15 seconds followed by about 2 minutes of silence.
After the silence, I followed up with the Adult Cottontail and said coyotes came burning in within about 5 minutes of the distress sound being started.
--------------------
If we ever forget we are one Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under--Ronald Reagan
Posts: 911 | From: Bob Dole Country | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
|
posted January 05, 2015 01:54 PM
Electronic calls did for predator hunting what DP's and cages did for trapping.
If everyone had to learn with handcalls/footholds, there would be a whole lot fewer trying and becoming overnight experts.
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
|
posted January 05, 2015 02:04 PM
Booger, that is one of my go to combos. I also like to follow up some howls with pup distress, or whines. Also, a couple howls followed up with a gray fox fight sequence of some kind works great. Heck, gray fox anything works good for coyotes around here.
Mark
[ January 05, 2015, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
--------------------
When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
|
posted January 05, 2015 02:12 PM
Booger-Tim, thanks that scenario has also served me well with hand calls and I'm sure, work equally as well with an e-call, like I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in results now that I'm not the source of the sound. The caller is.
My comment about hand calls, was more directed towards folks like we talked about on the 1st page, sitting Fox Pro's on hoods and such.
(edit) Mark & Randy very good points. Oh' yeah e-calls are illegal to use on Wolves here, Huh ?
Who gives a shit ? Like that would make some remarkable difference..
[ January 05, 2015, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 05, 2015 02:45 PM
quote:
Hand calls have their place.. but not in shotgun stands (IMHO) Why have a dog ambush you when you can ambush them with an ecaller?
On rifle stands , hand calls are awesome .. Sounds like I'm about to get into terrible in here.. ;-(
Umm? Furdirt, you shouldn't feel that way. My reading of the tea leaves says you are well accepted, in spite of being thirty years too young.
And another thing. Go ahead and stick your neck out. Takes balls to stake out a position on anything, with these guys. If you get a difference of opinion, doesn't mean either you or somebody else is wrong. It's all food for thought. Some of the dullest shit is everybody agreeing about everything.
Now, tell us about those airguns again. That should be good for a raised eyebrow or two?
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
|
posted January 05, 2015 04:09 PM
My dad and uncle call em (wire ties/zip ties) plastic baling wire.
Furdirt, ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I like the idea of the combo gun but never knew if they were worth it or not. The only experience I had with one was an old salvage 20 gauge under a 22, it sucked even as a squirrel gun.
I'm a hand caller and used to use hand calls exclusively for howls but since I was told about Cal's sounds, I rarely use anything else. (I'm also lazy.)
Interesting take on shotgun stands with hand calls vs e-sounds. How far can you see on a typical stand? I would think if it's that close a more open choke would be better ?
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
|
posted January 05, 2015 06:17 PM
Forgot to say my cousin got roped into a contest this past weekend. He was walking to his first stand right at daylight and heard two fox pros howling, he was between them. Then one of them started using his remote like a tv gooser, playing every sound he could find.
Second place had one truck already there and another driving in front of him. All on private land.
Thanks FP and PM!
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
|
posted January 05, 2015 07:11 PM
The farmer/rancher stories remind me of the time Higgins went to call that place in Idaho, nuclear research center or something, I forget exactly.
The idea was, there were these coyote research guys working up there and they had some coyotes with GPS collars and Higgins was going to call them and see how they reacted. But the beauty of it was, these coyotes HAD NEVER BEEN CALLED BEFORE! He was going to be able to track there movements synchronized with his calling.
Well, maybe they hadn't been called. But they had routinely been netted from helicopters, shot with tranquilizers by ground crews, captured for blood samples and changing batteries and retrieving data etc. They are about as cross wired and sensitive to any and all human presence as could be imagined.
Things did not go as planned...
One of the more interesting results, as I recall, was a coyote that as soon as the call started, ran away about half a mile, then circled downwind from a mile out and started yapping. Then, the interesting part, that same coyote shadowed them for miles and miles throughout the day. Never getting too close, but paralleling the truck for the next several stands and yapping at every stand.
The same coyote.
Something to think about on those days you get yapped at every stand?
- DAA
--------------------
"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
|
posted January 05, 2015 07:12 PM
Oh, and I'm weak as a kitten when it comes to using vocals. Some of you guys need to throw me something I can use here...
- DAA
--------------------
"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
|
posted January 05, 2015 07:43 PM
I would say 80+% of my calling anymore is some type of Coyote Vocalizations maybe even more. And i have seen my success rate increase quite a bit especially here in Utah. I to have seen and talked to alot of people here in Utah that use the running truck/foxpro method of calling.lol Really does make the calling more difficult in some areas.As the saying goes you just can't fix stupid totally applies here. Back to the use of Vocalizations, i definitely believe in the less over more when it comes to calling though. Just enough to peak curiosity.and watch downwind.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 05, 2015 08:25 PM
Dave, you have the facts exactly right about that research center. Technically, those coyotes had never been called. And, this dipshit had a PhD after his name due to publishing papers about observed coyote behavior. Yeah, real valuable information.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted January 06, 2015 05:11 AM
Given the same terrain conditions, I always figured that hand calls lent themselves more to shotgunning, than rifle shooting?
As for howling, I don't know much, 'cept for what's been said already. As Leonard described, I like to pick a sound that mimicks the local coyotes, and use it accordingly and with regard to time of day.
And as Jim described, I like to employ specific sound(s) to "paint a picture", a scenario that makes sense in my head. Then, hope that it makes sense enough to a coyote, too...
I think a more important topic might be when to NOT use certain vocalization(s). On par with what I've learned from turkey calling for the last 20+yds and elk calling for the last three years:
If you say the "wrong" thing at the right time, or say the "right" thing at the wrong time, then you've pretty much screwed the pooch for getting that animal to come to your calling...
Regardless of the critter, the key to calling is to learn their vocabulary first, then learn how that particular animal uses that vocabulary to communicate with others.
Think of animal communication in terms of how humans speak. There is a certain logic & decorum that needs followed for a productive exchange of information. In that regard, I don't think animals are any different than we are.
When we enter a new setting, we tend to seek out a familiar face to talk with.
When someone asks us a question politely, we tend answer in the same polite manner.
When someones shouts in our face, we either disengage out of fear, or escalate the exchange, out of fury.
We tend to speak to people on our own 'turf' differently, than we would on their 'turf', out of respect.
Etc. etc. etc...
Ask yourselves, are animals really any different???
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
|
posted January 06, 2015 05:46 AM
Question for the vocalists. I've always heard, and generally believed, that if you are using vocals on stand the standard 15 minutes isn't long enough.
What say y'all?
- DAA
--------------------
"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
|
posted January 06, 2015 06:03 AM
the more I use vocals, the more I don't think anyone really fully understands what they mean. I've had coyotes come as hard and quick to vocals as I have to any prey sounds. I've used vocals/howls over and over on stand and called coyotes.
One thing for certain, there is more to vocals than just howls, and those other vocals certainly work. A guy just needs to explore them to see for themselves.
--------------------
Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 06, 2015 08:35 AM
Dave, yes, the experts say fifteen minutes isn't long enough. For vocals, for cats, for denning pairs. Longer is always better, except for when they are in your lap after the first series. Personally, I expect to see an animal within three and a half minutes. My confidence and my expectations bleed profusely, after that.
I guess it's what you need to do? First, you have people like DAA and Victor who rely on same old, same old. Because it works. A better explanation is, they know how to set up a stand, in their area, and get the most out of it. Like they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Neither of these guys mess with vocals, or, if they do, they ain't saying.
Also, ^ what TR said. Prey sounds are simple to understand, it's not language. But vocals is/are something completely different. Personally, while I don't roll my eyes at those that are telling me what it all means, the only thing that matters is that THEY have it figured out.
I could go on, but.
God hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted January 06, 2015 09:26 AM
For the record, I'm not dumb enough to attempt to lead anyone here to believe that I've got the coyote dictionary down pat, and certainly didn't wish to imply that with my above post...
But, speaking in generalities here, I don't think it takes much brainpower to be able to distinguish passive vocals from aggressive ones, and young pup vocals from adults?
We all have been around dogs and feel it safe to assume that 99% of us here could perceive the difference between excited "lets play" barking, vs. aggressive "I'm going to bite you" barking.
So, without attempting to break down the meaning of what every bark, yip, howl, squeal, or combination thereof means, I do think its entirely possible for even a nitwit like myself to figure out the difference between lonely 'contact' type howling, from aggressive 'challenge' type howling.
And we've all heard serenade/group yipping & 'assembly' type howling early & late.
So, without breaking down every sound to a single word or meaning, its entirely possible to get the 'feel' of a vocalization, with not much more than a little common sense. And once you have that basic generalization of vocals down, a little more common sense would help in employing those sounds to 'paint a picture' on stand. Paint it however you want, according to time of year, proximity to other coyotes, terrain, etc...
IE: Are you a lonely coyote, just looking for contact from any other coyote in the area?
Are you a pair of coyotes?
Are you a breeding pair of coyotes?
Are you a pack of coyotes, just howling at the Moon?
Are you a pack of coyotes, assembling to hunt?
Are you wanting to sound aggressive to trigger a territorial response from local coyotes?
Are you a young pup, lost & hurt?
Are you an alpha male, threatening any intruders to your territory?
Are you a couple of coyotes, fighting over a kill?
Don't have to know what every sound means in order to put different vocals to good use on stand...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
|
posted January 06, 2015 10:16 AM
Anybody that thinks they can speak to coyotes is a fool.When i am using Vocalizations I am just trying to peak there curiosity and maybe confuse them a bit into thinking there is a strange Coyote in there area. Not trying to communicate with them. Sure certain sounds do that better than others but it's definitely not communicating with them. That's why I say less calling is better than more. I don't usually stay longer than the 15 minute mark. Hasn't really seemed nessesary. Most of my responses are within 8-12 minutes when howling. My brother and I have been using a little trick that has proven extremely effective in calling multiples lately but i really don't want to share on an open forum. Then it probably won't be as effective in the future especially with all the new callers here in Utah.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 06, 2015 10:27 AM
Oh great, Chad! So, send me an email.
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 06, 2015 10:30 AM
PS along those lines; many times, screwing around, I try to repeat exactly what I hear, if I have a coyote communicating with me? Probably drives them nuts? And, it doesn't work, more often than not.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
|
posted January 06, 2015 10:57 AM
Interesting that you do the standard length stand with vocals Chad. Thanks for chiming in.
- DAA
--------------------
"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted January 06, 2015 11:11 AM
quote:
Anybody that thinks they can speak to coyotes is a fool.When i am using Vocalizations I am just trying to peak there curiosity and maybe confuse them a bit into thinking there is a strange Coyote in there area. Not trying to communicate with them.
I think your first statement is getting into semantics about communicating vs. "talking". When you're calling, you're communicating. If howling at a coyote(s) isn't "speaking" to it, then what is it?
And I agree with your second statement, 100%. That's the whole idea, to arouse curiosity or trigger a natural response to approach your calling.
That's where I feel you're oversimplifying the curiosity part. The best part of vocalizations are how they appeal to a coyote's natural drives toward...
Food
Friends
Family
Fighting
or
Fucking
The beauty of using vocals is that you can appeal to one or more of those five "F"s. Whereas a prey sound is always just a prey sound & keys on the drive for "Food".
Not wanting to complicate the topic at hand, but I feel it is the fool who just picks a howl/vocalization at random & doesn't consider the response they're trying to illicit from the coyote...
[ January 06, 2015, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
|
posted January 06, 2015 11:35 AM
LB, No more airguns for awhile; we'll stick to firearms around here! ;-)
Tom, I like a good pattern at 40 yards; this provides margin for those longer shots!
UTcaller, How do you use vocals if you want to hunt ALL day??
[ January 06, 2015, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
--------------------
--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
