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Author
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Topic: Come on, seriously??
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted January 29, 2014 09:05 AM
Leonard, that's all perfectly reasonable. And perfectly in harmony with Capitalism. If the companies can't produce something that is enticing enough to you at a price that is acceptable enough to you, then you don't buy it. If too many people feel the same way, they fail and lose money.
Maybe they, or even somebody else that has been paying attention, learns from the excersize and circles back around with an improved version at a lower price and enough people like the changes and new price that they buy and the company makes money.
The market works, when given a chance.
And you, me, Fred and everyone else deciding whether we really want to spend our money on something new is what it is all about. But if, lets just use Foxpro as the example, if they hadn't advanced their products in the last five years, come out with all the new bells and whistles that they have, just sat on the old FX3 or FX5 and the remotes they had five years ago, they'd be just another "wonder what happened to those guys" story now - out of business, dream over. Instead, they are kicking ass and taking names, making good money for themselves and employing more and more people all the time. "Creating wealth".
I've been working for the same guy for almost 25 years now. He is by far the smartest person I have ever met. All around. Not just intelligent, but street smart and people smart too. Just a genius in the truest sense of the word. Also the hardest working man I have ever met. A workaholic in the truest sense of the word. When he hired me, he was making about 1/3 of what he pays me now. Now he pays about 250 people enough to support their families. He's made himself nine figures already and sure to be a billionaire before he's done.
So, anyway, there isn't just one thing that got him there. But a really big part of it, something he has always preached to all of us that work for him, is that - and these are his words - "customers don't have a fucking clue what they want". He says if you wait around for customers to tell you what they want, or what problems they need solved, you'll never get out in front of the market and innovate. We are CONSTANTLY coming up with new products and new features that our customers initially just bitch about. "Why are they making XYZ when nobody is aking for it". "Who needs that, we've been doing it the other way forever and it still works". Etc., etc. But then, five years later, these same people are talking about how they can't live without XYZ and our competitors who didn't have the imagination and the balls to create it and roll it out there for ridicule, are playing catchup. But we've already rolled out a bunch more new shit that nobody seems to have any use for, but which we know from experience they are going to get really, really used to having and won't want to do without in the future.
I see the same kind of approach with what Foxpro does. They are constantly coming out with new stuff that a lot of predator hunters bitch and moan about being too expensive, not needed, ridiculous, etc., etc. But, pretty consistently, the stuff sells, the people who buy it really like it, and their competitors are left to play catch up.
I admire the shit out of how they roll.
- DAA
[ January 29, 2014, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: DAA ]
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 29, 2014 09:35 AM
I accept your argument, Dave.
I also think Foxpro is a world beater in game calls.
But, I think it's bad for us old school predator callers.
Everybody is an instant expert.
At least they been there, got the Tee Shirt.
There is more to predator hunting than triggering a remote.
And educating five square miles worth of coyotes, while killing 1.
Maybe?
Now I have to hunt educated coyotes, and I don't like that.
Call me a Neanderthal, digging in my heels against technology!
It was so much simpler, back in the good old days.
I used the same 8 track player for something like ? 15 years?
I will not mention how many coyotes were called by that primitive device.
Oh, okay, it would be thousands, many thousands.
I don't know what the hell my point is?
Good hunting. LB
PS, does your company have a website? I have always wondered what you do; send email if bashful.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 29, 2014 09:43 AM
I for one believe if you want to be the most successful that you can as a predator hunter, and only you can say what that means. You have to adapt and use the tools that will best help you acomplish the task at hand. For me its killing as many coyotes as I can that I've called in. As you can see from that picture i posted in another thread i definitely don't call in the "thick stuff". But i carry a shotgun with me at every stand. With just a rifle i would bet of the 5 coyotes that came in only 1 would have died that day. I also use turrets and a small harris bipod on my rifle for those extra long shots. With using these three tools(turrets,bipod, and shotgun) I have increased my coyote harvest dramaticly. Just like i have since i have been using Foxpro CS24 in addition to my traditional hand calls. I really haven't changed my stand selection since i started using my shotgun and the long range stuff more I'm just ready when i need them.
As far as the sell sell sell thing goes, I agree with Dave they(Foxpro) put out a great product and the will sell until they won't and then they will adapt. That is the free market and the way it should be.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 29, 2014 10:39 AM
I been there, done that, Chad.
I have participated in more contests than you would believe, and toting a shottie was very common. Now, not so much. I don't have to kill every coyote. I still want to, but it's not a mortal sin if I don't. It depends on factors, as to whether I carry a rifle and shotgun, or either one. Being "backdoored" is a good reason to have one handy.
But when loaded down with a stool and a caller and sticks, and two firearms, how far do you like to walk? Not AS far. I still like sneaking through a wash with a small backpack and my trusty Model 600, as long as I don't have to walk back uphill, more than three stands. But it's like that golf joke, make a stand, drag Wiley, make a stand drag both Wiley's, etc.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted January 29, 2014 11:09 AM
Yeah, when I started , I had a AR-15 or centerfire in hand, and found out very shortly that it was a big pain in the ass to find any "elevation" in my area. And, I was finding out that everyone with a AR and Foxpro had the same idea for stand locations. lol
After switching to shotgun, everything changed, just hit a thousand washes and start calling. No need to scout really, there's tons of dogs (oops, I mean coyotes).
I have a combo gun, but I end up shooting a coyote 7 out of 10 times. The rest is a .223 on average of 100 yards.
I shot a few coyotes with a centerfire in Flagstaff and Sedona areas, and I have to admit, it was refreshing!! However, having a dog run in at 20 to 30 yards all the time is pretty cool too..
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted January 29, 2014 11:19 AM
In terms of ecallers, I have the CS24B.. I usually drive my trucks to the ground, I think I'll be doing the same with that ecaller..
I also agree that ecallers educate more coyotes than hand calls in general. Too easy for folks to hit "pup distress3" for 5 or ten minutes on every stand.
I use pup distress, but selectively. If I'm in an general area , I try and use it only once.
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 29, 2014 11:25 AM
I will readily admit sometimes it can be a pain in the ass to carry both guns, but I guess I am getting used to it now. And yes I walk, Alot... Anymore i feel like i have to especially here in Utah, theres just to many callers out there educating coyotes to do the 100 yards from the truck stands anymore. I've also started improvising more too. Ground skinning coyotes when the furs prime, it's alot easier to pack a couple coyote hides than drag two dead coyotes back to the truck or Atv. Or if it isnt fur season cut off the ears and jaw and throw it in a bag. So I really don't carry much from stand to stand.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 29, 2014 11:32 AM
...and, a stool isn't a necessity in Utah or Nevada. There is always a rock to sit on or the side of a hill.
I have a medical condition that limits extensive walking, or I might do it a lot more.
Good hunting. El Bee
Hey fur, you been talking to Clever Gary, huh?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 29, 2014 11:54 AM
I usually just have a inch thick butt pad that clips to my belt loop on my pants to sit on. Speaking of medical conditions and walking, i have been dealing with a torn myniscus(sp?) in my right knee for a couple years and it has finally bothered me enough that I'm going under the knife in a couple weeks to hopefully fix it so I really get after the coyotes next fall. Nothing worse than being 4 miles from the truck and it starts popping and feels like somebody is sticking a knife in my knee.lol
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted January 29, 2014 01:23 PM
Leonard, no need to see our website, it wouldn't tell you anything about what "I" actually do. My Boss tried to make me rich, years ago, but the stress was too much for me. Figured I'd rather be poor and happy than rich and suicidal. I asked if I could just be the janitor, and he graciously agreed to let me. Seen one janitor, seen them all, websites notwithstanding...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 29, 2014 01:51 PM
Leonard, back to foxpro and ecallers. I couldn't agree more with your assesment of what this new ecaller age has brought to the table. For me it's been a double edged sword. I have reaped the benefits of the callers and the great sounds they have to offer. But at the same time see how much harder it is to call coyotes in with all the idiots out there with there heads up there asses with no clue what it means to be a good and successful Coyote caller. I also think its made lazy callers too. But again this to has made me a better caller as far as i'm concerned. I've had to learn to adapt to compensate for the increased pressure and educating of the coyotes i am calling. So i guess i see pro's and con's to this new generation of predator calling.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 29, 2014 02:19 PM
Okay, Dave. I will have to use my imagination.
However, I understand pulling back from the rat race. Money has never motivated me. I feel kind of sorry for those that have the drive for riches. All I want is simple pleasures, independence,
and contentment.
If I could be as rich as Dan, (the man) I wouldn't know what to do with it? Maybe take longer and more exotic vacations? But, I always feel relief when I get back home, so?
They say when you have more stuff, you worry about it in direct ratio to how many toys you have. I'm not a car nut. Not even a gun nut? Tools, nothing more.
But, make no mistake. Retirement and me get along just fine. My needs are small and so is my income and I want for nothing, in the material sense. I have always been happy. Retirement just mellows me a bit more.
Handsome enough, I could be an inch or two taller but otherwise, I'm looking through rose tinted glasses.
Oh, actually there is one thing. I sure wish Obama would drop dead while we still have a country left!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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NVWalt
Does not claim to be overly bright!
Member # 375
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posted January 29, 2014 02:52 PM
I couldn't agree with you more Leonard. I'm kinda stuck in analog mode myself. Life is easier that way I think.
And since the proliferation of e callers and everybody all of a sudden thinking they are ADC guys I have noticed over the past 20 or so years anyways that there are a lot more educated coyotes out there than there was before and where I used to call all of a sudden has ten guys a weekend out blasting the airwaves with foxpro sounds.
Glad Im retired and can at least have the weekdays to myself. Even out here in the middle of nowhere.
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Support Communism and help destroy the United States of America ! VOTE DEMOCRAT. "In the end, they aren't coming after me. They are coming after you!" D.Trump
Posts: 636 | From: Tellico Plains, TN | Registered: Aug 2004
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted January 29, 2014 05:23 PM
I am a dinosaur! The only e-caller I ever used and still use a little every now and then is the FREE green Ray-o-vac Foxpro I won a long, long time ago, in a giveaway contest from THE one and only Dave Affleck!
Dave, I admire the heck out of you. You certainly do make the most of your life! I had a neighbor for 18 years. He quit his sales job to get a maintenance job so that he could have way more time to raise his 4 kids. We watched all of them grow up. Three of them went to West Pointe. My favorite, unfortunately, almost went to State Pen. (Not Penn State.) LOL
[ January 29, 2014, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted January 30, 2014 04:35 AM
quote:
...and everybody all of a sudden thinking they are ADC guys...
just had to quote that, cuz it made me spit/choke/water-jet iced tea outta both nostrils!!!
Thanks for the sinus irrigation!!!
[ January 30, 2014, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted January 30, 2014 04:52 AM
Back on topic: I admire Dave as well, not to mention several other gentlemen that frequent Leonard's place!
Growing up without a father, I've always tried to gravitate toward those I figured who "knew stuff", looked up to them, tried to learn from them, and sought to follow their lead however best I could muster.
Cool thing about Leonard's place here is, that you guys still provide a dude like me with that guidance & insight by just being yourselves.
Just wanted to sincerely thank you guys for that...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 30, 2014 09:27 AM
Thanks, Fred. You are singlehandedly changing my attitude towards New Yawkers.
Also, we are "sympaticos" living in Liberal dominated states.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted February 02, 2014 07:45 AM
Leonard: "I don't know what the hell my point is?"
LMAO! I'm right there with you man. Direct honesty and no reason to care what anyone might think about it. God bless you Leonard.
To the topic.....
I too long for the "good ol days" when groves of coyotes would run over you with the slightest breath of air blown through a Tally Ho, Circe, Weems or other hand held call at the time. Most callers now days look at you funny if you mention Herters. I guess I need to feel fortunate for having been there at that time to experience it.
There's no doubt the Fox Pro era has changed the game and very few coyotes haven't heard the dying rabbit blues shortly into the prime fur season. I would hate to venture a guess at how many more callers there are out there and how many of them are using electronic calls. I think it would be staggering particularly when you consider all deer, antelope, prairie dog hunters, etc. that are also trying their hand. Now add in all the coyote calling contests with new guys constantly entering the fray and you aren't going to have many coyotes left that haven't heard the gig. There used to be one major coyote calling contest in western South Dakota. Now there is one or two every weekend somewhere during the entire winter. It's just a fact of life as we know it now.
I have always watched statistics if I felt they were honest. Before "coyotes seen vs. coyotes killed" became a measure of ability by some of us or created reason for some to figure out the higher coyote population areas reported by others which resulted in those figures being manipulated, I used to watch that very closely. In many contests all the participants were killing less than 30% of what they saw. Stop and think about that. Assuming everyone was being honest when these figures were first requested (I know they are not honest now), that's that many educated coyotes for just one contest. Now consider all the weekend warriors that haven't got a clue what to do including some that blow the calls from the comfort of their trucks, just think how many coyotes there are in most areas that have heard this gig. I think the numbers would be staggering. Again, it's just a fact of life. Fox Pro has made it easy for anyone to be a caller. Nothing wrong with that.
So the big question is, how to play the cards we've been dealt. How to kill a higher percentage of what is out there educated or not. Calling strategies have to account for this fact. Do we walk further, do we change our set up strategies to account for call shyness, do we use hand calls and/or diaphragm (sp?) calls and assume more authenticity to our vocal presentation, more howling and less distress, longer range shooting, or night calling, etc.
Every coyote can be killed but sometimes the selection process becomes mind numbing and time consuming.
I have to agree with Dave on being a proponent of unbridled capitalism so rather than crying in my beer about the army of Fox Pro coyote callers out there, I need to spend my time thinking about how to get an edge with the cards we have been dealt because that truly is the American way.
Oh BTW, can't remember who mentioned a #3 double long spring trap for coyotes but that's the last trap I would set for coyotes. It's ok for cats in certain situations but I don't know any serious coyote trappers using double long springs. An old trapper I know said they make a good canoe anchor.
As a great philosopher once said, "I don't know what the hell my point is"?
~SH~
[ February 02, 2014, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted February 02, 2014 08:46 AM
quote:
Ground skinning coyotes when the furs prime, it's alot easier to pack a couple coyote hides than drag two dead coyotes back to the truck or Atv.
That is mostly what I do when I hunt here. Just too little private land to hunt, so we usually make a stand and try to call animals off other peoples land onto land we are allowed to hunt. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Then beat feet to the next stand location. It is always deer season here, so public land is chaos or a pumpkin patch at times.
Kind of like bass fishing I guess, seems everyone has a boat, depth finder, and fishes the good spots.
After working 7-12's or more while the three car plants were here, and a Nuke plant down south, now it seems like hospitals and pharmaceutical companies, I got burnt out. Yea I made a few dollars but had no life, plus the stress will get to you.
I love it when I go to someone else's job and I can just say, "what next boss"!
I do like this site's no BS output from the guys that know their S. If coyotes can get educated then there is hope that I can too.
Heck with all the praise for Dave, I was almost expecting this to turn into one of those old Celebrity Roast, like Dean Martin used to do in the 70's. I loved those shows. Hard part is I don't think I have ever heard/read Dave saying anything bad about anyone.
LB, I hear you loud and clear. I may never be rich with money, have a Ranger or Triton bass boat, may even be reduced to drinking warm Stag beer, well maybe not Stag, I do have to draw the line somewhere, but I can still have fun with my true friends. And I am lucky enough to have a few scattered out through this great country.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted February 02, 2014 10:15 AM
quote:
Most callers now days look at you funny if you mention Herters.
Herters... I remember them. One of my earliest experiences with an e-caller was a Herters ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) .
Dad had the little battery powered record player, but I don't remember him using it when I hunted with him.
My Dad used to transfer those 45's to reel-to-reel tape. Had a ginormous tape player, with a speaker at the end of a long reel of wire. Player took like 8 or 10 D cells. Speaker and all that wire. It was heavy. I was the pack mule. I really hated that setup! It's why I was a 100% hand caller for a long, long time. Right up until I got my first FoxPro, matter of fact - which is the one Danny has now.
Dad did eventually get a JS512, which was a huge improvement over that old tape deck. But I had moved out and was doing my own thing by then, didn't get to hunt with him that often over his 512.
Speaking of how many coyotes have heard the FoxPro sounds... I recorded their first good jackrabbit sound. Up till then, they really didn't have any good sounds, in my opinion. Since then of course they have really compiled one hell of a library. Plenty of sounds that are probably better. But that first live jack rabbit I did for them, I still call it Utah Jack, that was their first real "killer sound".
I don't watch hunting shows. But my partner Tim does. He says he has heard that sound on just about every predator hunting show there is - including some that don't use Foxpros!
Anyway... Tim says he has heard that sound on TV being used in Africa, heard it being used to call Bigfoots on those kind of shows, all kinds of stuff. I've heard it on a lot of the videos I used to buy too.
I still use that sound on most of my stands. And sometimes I really have to wonder, just how many coyotes have heard that sound? A hundred thousand? A million? I've no idea. But it's a lot. I wonder how many coyotes hear it when I'm playing it, that have ALREADY heard it - that exact sound?
So, I'm the last person on earth that has any right to bitch about coyotes getting educated by FoxPro...
- DAA
[ February 02, 2014, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: DAA ]
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted February 02, 2014 10:18 AM
BTW... On that Herters 45, you can see something has been crossed out and the word "pred" hand written. That's how it came from Herters. Beats the hell outta me what that's about!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted February 02, 2014 10:31 AM
Okay, just held that Herters record up to the light and looked real close. It says "Goose" under the magic marker.
Guess they must have got a batch labeled wrong and just crossed them out like that. Kinda funny!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted February 02, 2014 11:25 AM
Wow, anything with Herters on it is a trip down memory lane.
I still believe if these sounds can be duplicated with a hand call to a high level of accuracy, it's going to beat the recorded sounds and it's underlying "white noise" in areas that are heavily called with electronic calls. I can tell the difference between live and recorded so I don't think a coyote has any trouble telling the difference. Heck, consider that dogs can identify individual vehicle noises at a half mile before that truck reaches the yards. A coyote's sense of hearing is far greater than most can comprehend. I can't prove that theory but I have that much confidence in a coyote's ability to detect that difference.
~SH~
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 02, 2014 11:46 AM
Herter's used to be almost a pre-Cabelas, they even sold rifles with their name on them. I was surprised and disappointed when they went under. Whatever it is now, that is reincarnated as Herter's, I don't know? Maybe somebody just bought the name? But, yes. A trip down memory lane, for sure.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
Member # 3785
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posted February 02, 2014 12:05 PM
LB,
Since you were once a vintage Minneeeesoootan,imagine you visited their store in Waseca,Mn.I did.
edit to add: http://discovery.mnhs.org/MN150/index.php?title=Herter%27s%2C_Inc.
[ February 02, 2014, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: DiYi ]
Posts: 623 | From: SoDak | Registered: Feb 2011
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